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[nightscrawl]

The way Dorian's quest was presented, it just doesn't seem fair to say, "no, he just happened to be gay," as if the problem was simply a matter of rebellion or tradition. I think there was a specific intent there.

Oh, there is no doubt that there was intent there on the part of David Gaider; he's basically stated as much. Dorian presented him with an amazing opportunity to do a specific type of character and insert social commentary and he went for it full-bore. That said, I think we should take the writer at his word when it comes to how that character's father views homosexuality, in general and in his son, as well as the larger context of how homosexuality is viewed in Tevinter, Thedas, and within the Dragon Age universe.

 

I like to compare it to the roles of women in Thedas. One of the main reasons for the difference between the roles of women in Dragon Age versus the real world is that the primary religion in Thedas is a matriarchy. That single factor has shaped the entire landscape. The mentality is completely different, and this needs to be taken into consideration when discussing women in Dragon Age. Is there still sexism? Of course there is--DAO has the most examples of this--but in general women are at a much higher level in relation to men than they were in our world during a similar time period.

 

So too with homosexuality. The writers wanted to make a world where it was generally not a big deal and they have created that world. This HAS to be taken into consideration; to view homosexuality in Thedas through the lens of our own world is a hindrance. I realize that real-life experiences can be hard to set aside, but it simply is not the same in Thedas. Is there still homophobia? Of course there is. Dorian uses the word "deviant," and I'm sure there are many people in Thedas who look on homosexuals and think so, but individuals are not always reflective of society as a whole.

 

On these forums you will occasionally see romance or sexuality threads that bring up the issue of "realism," but that is a non-factor because those people are saying that it does not conform to our own reality. It never will, because Thedas is its own reality and the writers can set forth any social rules they wish and claim that those are real for the setting.

 

To add to this rambling screed... At the Winter Palace I always hang around and listen to the herald announce all of the nobles. Near the end of the list is a certain comte who is introduced along with his wife and his paramour (another man). Look for no better example as to how this is viewed in Orlais.

 

(Since you seem worried about this... the length or earnestness of my post is in no way a negativity directed toward you; it's just how I write. Also we do like to get into a lot of back-and-forth in here, but it's always done in the spirit of furthering discussion of our fav mage. So even if people counter your points or disagree, it's all good.)
 
 

He and Tyrion Lannister should start a club.

Sigh... that's for damned sure. I'm sure Tyrion is all emo and everything at the start of this season 5 of GoT (I'm always a season behind since I watch the DVD releases), but nothing can compare to the immense misery as it was portrayed in the novel. Up until that point, Mary Shelley's Victor Frankenstein was the most miserable character I'd ever read, but Tyrion blew him out of the water.

[shinynotshiny]

Oh, there is no doubt that there was intent there on the part of David Gaider; he's basically stated as much. Dorian presented him with an amazing opportunity to do a specific type of character and insert social commentary and he went for it full-bore. That said, I think we should take the writer at his word when it comes to how that character's father views homosexuality, in general and in his son, as well as the larger context of how homosexuality is viewed in Tevinter, Thedas, and within the Dragon Age universe.

 

I like to compare it to the roles of women in Thedas. One of the main reasons for the difference between the roles of women in Dragon Age versus the real world is that the primary religion in Thedas is a matriarchy. That single factor has shaped the entire landscape. The mentality is completely different, and this needs to be taken into consideration when discussing women in Dragon Age. Is there still sexism? Of course there is--DAO has the most examples of this--but in general women are at a much higher level in relation to men than they were in our world during a similar time period.

 

So too with homosexuality. The writers wanted to make a world where it was generally not a big deal and they have created that world. This HAS to be taken into consideration; to view homosexuality in Thedas through the lens of our own world is a hindrance. I realize that real-life experiences can be hard to set aside, but it simply is not the same in Thedas. Is there still homophobia? Of course there is. Dorian uses the word "deviant," and I'm sure there are many people in Thedas who look on homosexuals and think so, but individuals are not always reflective of society as a whole.

 

On these forums you will occasionally see romance or sexuality threads that bring up the issue of "realism," but that is a non-factor because those people are saying that it does not conform to our own reality. It never will, because Thedas is its own reality and the writers can set forth any social rules they wish and claim that those are real for the setting.

 

To add to this rambling screed... At the Winter Palace I always hang around and listen to the herald announce all of the nobles. Near the end of the list is a certain comte who is introduced along with his wife and his paramour (another man). Look for no better example as to how this is viewed in Orlais.

 

(Since you seem worried about this... the length or earnestness of my post is in no way a negativity directed toward you; it's just how I write. Also we do like to get into a lot of back-and-forth in here, but it's always done in the spirit of furthering discussion of our fav mage. So even if people counter your points or disagree, it's all good.)
 

 

I think we may have misunderstood each other. I'm not arguing that Dorian's father has a problem with his orientation all by itself, just that his orientation and rebellious nature keep him from helping the family. That much is clear and I don't dispute. What I mean by homophobia is the fact that, despite not having a problem with same-sex behavior, upper-class society still prioritizes one kind of relationship over another. In this case, it's a heterosexual relationship because the point of the relationship is to create a family that benefits society. There isn't much consideration for people who don't want to be forced into marriage, and more specifically, people who don't want to be forced into a relationship that goes against their very nature. There's no middle ground or attempts at accomodating.

 

Yes, Dorian may have had the opportunity to have a partner of his choosing on the side, but the way he spoke of it, a long-term relationship didn't seem like an actual possibility. If that's the case, then a same-sex relationship in Tevinter (at least for the upper-class) is about sex and nothing more. I wouldn't call that accepting, and I'm basing this opinion on what the game presents us, not what I take from real life. Tevinter is obviously full of problems, and limiting same-sex relationships (actual relationships, not just sex) is one of them.

 

My argument boils down to this: I'm not defining homophobia as fear and disgust towards non-straight people and a ban on such-and-such behavior. I'm arguing that problems and prejudice exist even though same-sex behavior is commonplace, and Tevinter society doesn't care to address the needs or wants of non-straight people (among several other grouups of people, which is an understatement).

 

I appreciate your comments at the end, but I'm not worried or flustered. This is just how I engage

[jgwhiteus]

Popping into this thread here due to the interesting discussion.

 

On an initial note, I thought the backstory for Dorian and his prior debaucherous ways was interesting not only because it gives you insight into his misery and early rebellion against his family's expectations, but also because it presents a such stark contrast with how he acts if he's in a relationship with the Inquisitor. Dorian in Tevinter was apparently careless with his own and his family's reputation; it didn't matter to him if he was seen drinking and whoring about town or if he was caught in flagrante, etc. - not because he didn't value his public image, but because he found that public image to be constrictive and stifling, and ultimately debauchery may have been his way of coping with and (perhaps subconsciously) trying to destroy something that was killing him.

 

Compare that with his almost paranoid care and concern towards rumors of a relationship between him and the Inquisitor. He doesn't want people to think that the Inquisitor is being influenced and manipulated by him. He says he doesn't care if people think he's a scheming Tevinter mage (they'll assume it anyway), but he is adamant that he doesn't want any intimacy or favors to him (such as re-securing his amulet) to lower people's opinion of the Inquisitor. Here's a man that we now know spent his youth fighting against and even sabotaging his family's and his own reputation (prior to this we might have assumed that he was the picture of obedience until his father betrayed him), working hard to protect the Inquisitor's public image from even the hint of scandal, even if it comes at the cost of Dorian's personal desires and happiness. Where does that stark change of heart come from? Is it romantic, tragic, unsettling, or maybe a combination of all three?

 

On the homophobia discussion - I think it's too much of a leap to say that because homosexuality isn't "forbidden" in Tevinter, it was therefore accepted within society, and Dorian's parents' had no issue with it so long as he produced an heir. Even if individually Tevinters don't express specific hatred or aversion to homosexuality, it is still viewed as "deviant" and "lesser" than heterosexuality (or, as most politely put, as a "quirk of character"). Things that are truly accepted don't need to be hidden away or kept from the public eye. Homosexual relationships can't be said to be treated as equal to heterosexual ones in Tevinter society if they're only tolerated as short-term trysts, or in the form of sexual abuse of slaves. And there are pretty direct parallels to our society, even if Thedas is a fantasy setting and isn't meant to mirror the real world 1:1. Many places don't "forbid" homosexuality outright with sodomy statutes (though sadly many places still do), but that doesn't mean that same-sex relationships are treated with the same respect, rights and status of opposite-sex ones. So while Tevinter might not be actively antagonistic towards homosexual relationships and permits them to happen, there's still an implied societal judgment that such relationships are less worthy than heterosexual ones.

[shinynotshiny]

Popping into this thread here due to the interesting discussion.

 

On an initial note, I thought the backstory for Dorian and his prior debaucherous ways was interesting not only because it gives you insight into his misery and early rebellion against his family's expectations, but also because it presents a such stark contrast with how he acts if he's in a relationship with the Inquisitor. Dorian in Tevinter was apparently careless with his own and his family's reputation; it didn't matter to him if he was seen drinking and whoring about town or if he was caught in flagrante, etc. - not because he didn't value his public image, but because he found that public image to be constrictive and stifling, and ultimately debauchery may have been his way of coping with and (perhaps subconsciously) trying to destroy something that was killing him.

 

Compare that with his almost paranoid care and concern towards rumors of a relationship between him and the Inquisitor. He doesn't want people to think that the Inquisitor is being influenced and manipulated by him. He says he doesn't care if people think he's a scheming Tevinter mage (they'll assume it anyway), but he is adamant that he doesn't want any intimacy or favors to him (such as re-securing his amulet) to lower people's opinion of the Inquisitor. Here's a man that we now know spent his youth fighting against and even sabotaging his family's and his own reputation (prior to this we might have assumed that he was the picture of obedience until his father betrayed him), working hard to protect the Inquisitor's public image from even the hint of scandal, even if it comes at the cost of Dorian's personal desires and happiness. Where does that stark change of heart come from? Is it romantic, tragic, unsettling, or maybe a combination of all three?

 

On the homophobia discussion - I think it's too much of a leap to say that because homosexuality isn't "forbidden" in Tevinter, it was therefore accepted within society, and Dorian's parents' had no issue with it so long as he produced an heir. Even if individually Tevinters don't express specific hatred or aversion to homosexuality, it is still viewed as "deviant" and "lesser" than heterosexuality (or, as most politely put, as a "quirk of character"). Things that are truly accepted don't need to be hidden away or kept from the public eye. Homosexual relationships can't be said to be treated as equal to heterosexual ones in Tevinter society if they're only tolerated as short-term trysts, or in the form of sexual abuse of slaves. And there are pretty direct parallels to our society, even if Thedas is a fantasy setting and isn't meant to mirror the real world 1:1. Many places don't "forbid" homosexuality outright with sodomy statutes (though sadly many places still do), but that doesn't mean that same-sex relationships are treated with the same respect, rights and status of opposite-sex ones. So while Tevinter might not be actively antagonistic towards homosexual relationships and permits them to happen, there's still an implied societal judgment that such relationships are less worthy than heterosexual ones.

 

You did a better job of getting the point across than I did

 

I think Dorian's reaction to a potential relationship with the Inquisitor says a lot about how Tevinter customs affected his sense of worth.There's no hope of having an honest, long-term relationship with a man, so why bother trying to build emotional connections? Why harbor that desire? If all he can have or if all he deserves is sex, then that's what he'll pursue. When the Inquisitor offers him something worthwhile and meaningful, we get to see Dorian's feelings about love and relationships. He places great value on his relationship with the Inquisitor and wants to protect it. That's why I don't believe he would've acted so excessively if he'd been attracted to women. In that case, there wouldn't have been a need to act that way. That's my impression, at least.

[Hazegurl]

Homosexuality is deviant.

It is deviant because producing an heir is more important.

 

One is the opinion while the other is the reason.

 

I hate to be that "screw what the author says" type.  But I kind of think Gaider is trying to have it both ways.  On one hand he wants to use Dorian's story as a parallel to his own IRL issues while at the same time saying those issues are not apart of the story.  Not to get on Gaider's case or anything but it either has some place in the story or it doesn't.

 

Does Tevinter accept homosexuality? My answer is yes and no on that one.  Sure they have no laws forbidding it but one can argue that there is no need to create laws when the entire society is built on suppressing it. I even have a difficult time believing homosexuality is accepted among the common folks in Tevinter due to Dorian mentioning that the common folk's obedience is built on the notion of "One day I will have a mage child." So even among the common folks, producing children is important as it can be their ticket to a higher status.

 

As for the nobles.  Something that is shameful, an averison, and should be hidden contradicts acceptance completely. If Dorian married the girl yet still slept with men on the side would Dorian's behavior be completely accepted or simply tolerated by his father and society.  My answer is yes and no.

 

Marrying the girl and sleeping with men is better than not marrying at all. So that is a level of acceptance.  However, would Dorian be able to marry the girl, produce and heir, and openly have a relationship with another man? I don't think so. I don't believe Halward would be happy with that and Dorian's chances of finding a man willing to have a real open relationship with him is slim.

 

Overall, I view the snippet from the world Thedas book as saying that their are no laws against homosexuality but it is not accepted.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Look what finally happened.

 

 

That pillow talk scene still gets me emotional every time, I swear.

[jgwhiteus]

 

You did a better job of getting the point across than I did 

 

I think Dorian's reaction to a potential relationship with the Inquisitor says a lot about how Tevinter customs affected his sense of worth.There's no hope of having an honest, long-term relationship with a man, so why bother trying to build emotional connections? Why harbor that desire? If all he can have or if all he deserves is sex, then that's what he'll pursue. When the Inquisitor offers him something worthwhile and meaningful, we get to see Dorian's feelings about love and relationships. He places great value on his relationship with the Inquisitor and wants to protect it. That's why I don't believe he would've acted so excessively if he'd been attracted to women. In that case, there wouldn't have been a need to act that way. That's my impression, at least.

 

Dorian also seems to have a lot of fear on the Inquisitor's behalf; I guess one take is that he is well-acquainted with how someone's public image can rule their life and destroy them. It's a theme running through the game that the image of the Herald is a powerful force that overshadows the actual person behind it, and that in many cases it doesn't matter what the Inquisitor actually believes or feels or who s/he really is, because people only see "the Herald". And because of this it seems like Dorian goes in expecting the Inquisitor to push Dorian away if their relationship threatens that larger than life image and places the Herald in danger (like any Tevinter noble would), so he is pleasantly shocked if the Inquisitor chooses to "be foolish" and pursue a relationship openly with him. That idea - of someone willing to risk their public face for Dorian's sake - is in direct counterpoint to his father, and kind of an unrealized wish come true.

 

As for the nobles.  Something that is shameful, an averison, and should be hidden contradicts acceptance completely. If Dorian married the girl yet still slept with men on the side would Dorian's behavior be completely accepted or simply tolerated by his father and society.  My answer is yes and no.

 

Marrying the girl and sleeping with men is better than not marrying at all. So that is a level of acceptance.  However, would Dorian be able to marry the girl, produce and heir, and openly have a relationship with another man? I don't think so. I don't believe Halward would be happy with that and Dorian's chances of finding a man willing to have a real open relationship with him is slim.

 

I'd also say the presentation of Orlesian society tends to cast Tevinter in a less accepting light. I misattributed the "quirk of character" phrase; that's supposedly how Orlais views homosexuality among the noble classes, and in the Winter Palace you notice what appear to be committed same-sex couples (even if they are sniping at one another)  as well as noble men who openly hit on Cullen. That Celene had an affair with Briala is apparently not remarkable for their both being women, but because Briala's being an elf is politically sensitive. Even though both noble classes are supremely concerned with social standing and one-upsmanship, it seems like Tevinter nobles are much more likely to hide away same-sex affairs because they don't fit in with their eugenics-focused goals, whereas Orlesian nobles have much more of a free-wheeling and accepting attitude towards different sexualities and relationships (e.g. Vivienne's open affair with the Duke). While Dorian's homosexuality and disinterest in a potential bride are considered scandalous and gossip-worthy in Tevinter, you get the sense that in Orlais it might have been considered just another facet of the Game (and maybe even something that could be turned to advantage if he paired with the "right" man).

[nightscrawl]

That Celene had an affair with Briala is apparently not remarkable for their both being women, but because Briala's being an elf is politically sensitive.

While the game (DAI, not the Game) isn't the right context for it, I think there was some mention in Masked Empire of her reluctance or refusal to get married. However, it's presented more as an independence thing, or as part of the Game--as in, I'll leave myself open to give all of these eligible guys some hope; the Duke Leto Atreides school of thought--rather than as a devotion to her lover thing (which as we see didn't go very far anyway). There actually should be more of a push for Celene to get married because of succession and all that. I don't know if Gaspard has any children.

[nightscrawl]

That pillow talk scene still gets me emotional every time, I swear.

The expression on Dorian's face is what really gets me. It's clear what he wants, despite him not wanting to want it. When the IQ says he wants more and Dorian replies, "I was… expecting something different," I just melt; poor thing. The fact that he was expecting a refusal is just heartbreaking.

[Hothouse Orchid]

I agree with all of you that a level of unfairness toward homosexuals does exist all over Thedas, just not in the same way as our own world (we are much worse sadly). Merely being accepted does not equate to justice nor equality, that's for sure. Neither does calling it deviant or "a quirk of character", or calling it anything at all really.

 

What I was trying to get at is, on the subject of marriage in Tevinter specifically, arranged marriages are unfair to everyone. No one wants to have their partner chosen for them, or choose between having children or live the rest of your life in public shame. But if you look at it from the perspective of homosexuals only, then yes, I suppose you can call that a type of homophobia. Regardless, it's discrimination, whatever label one might use. Dorian disapproves of this strict nature of his society which leads him to rebel against it, and I like to believe he would have even as a straight man. I am in no way stating this as a fact, it's just how I see him.

 

If I missed the point of this discussion entirely then oops, but there you have my opinion anyway.

[shinynotshiny]

I agree with all of you that a level of unfairness toward homosexuals does exist all over Thedas, just not in the same way as our own world (we are much worse sadly). Merely being accepted does not equate to justice nor equality, that's for sure. Neither does calling it deviant or "a quirk of character", or calling it anything at all really.

 

What I was trying to get at is, on the subject of marriage in Tevinter specifically, arranged marriages are unfair to everyone. No one wants to have their partner chosen for them, or choose between having children or live the rest of your life in public shame. But if you look at it from the perspective of homosexuals only, then yes, I suppose you can call that a type of homophobia. Regardless, it's discrimination, whatever label one might use. Dorian disapproves of this strict nature of his society which leads him to rebel against it, and I like to believe he would have even as a straight man. I am in no way stating this as a fact, it's just how I see him.

 

If I missed the point of this discussion entirely then oops, but there you have my opinion anyway.

 

I think you kind of are missing the point

[Hothouse Orchid]

I think you kind of are missing the point

 

Care to enlighten me then?

[shinynotshiny]

Care to enlighten me then?

 

Again, I don't mean to start a fight.

 

I agree that arranged marriages are unfair for everyone involved, straight or otherwise, but there's an extra set of problems for people who aren't straight (as there would be for other people in unique circumstances). The "type of homophobia" isn't just about the arranged marriage, but also about the insistence or expectation that same-sex relationships remain sexual or short-term. I never meant to imply a straight Dorian wouldn't rebel against Tevinter customs as a whole. I simply meant to express he wouldn't have acted in excess (getting drunk and ending up in strangers' beds, for example) if he were attracted to women, because I believe that excessive behavior is an expression of rebellion as well as his inner turmoil.

[Fredward]

I see the Drama Llama has arrived. The primary thing I got from that WoT extract is that Dorian is largely incapable of handling emotional turmoil. I do not want to watch the self-destructive spiral if he and the Inquisitor ever break up. Or, god forbid, the Inquisitor dies.

[Forsythia77]

I would argue it's still a form of homophobia. It's the insistance that any non-straight person keep their personal life a secret because it looks bad and/or doesn't add to society. Plus it's degrading to have to keep the person you love on the side.

 

Not looking to start a fight, btw.

 

Also, yes, first post... because Dorian

 

I'm in this camp.  It's one thing to keep an affair on the DL because you are shirking your valid and straight marriage.  But to have to fake it because "duty" seems disingenuous to me at best.

 

Also, I think you don't have to worry about a fight.  Most everyone here is pretty chill. 

[Hothouse Orchid]

Again, I don't mean to start a fight.

 

I agree that arranged marriages are unfair for everyone involved, straight or otherwise, but there's an extra set of problems for people who aren't straight (as there would be for other people in unique circumstances). The "type of homophobia" isn't just about the arranged marriage, but also about the insistence or expectation that same-sex relationships remain sexual or short-term. I never meant to imply a straight Dorian wouldn't rebel against Tevinter customs as a whole. I simply meant to express he wouldn't have acted in excess (getting drunk and ending up in strangers' beds, for example) if he were attracted to women, because I believe that excessive behavior is an expression of rebellion as well as his inner turmoil.

 

I appreciate your explanation, and I think I understand you more clearly now. After further consideration I am willing to agree with you. It is true that a lover of the same gender would have to remain hidden while someone of the opposite may not. While being reduced to having the one you love as an affair on the side is unfair for all parts, it is indeed worse if you have to keep it a secret. Somehow that particular bit slipped my mind completely.

 

So, thanks for explaining. 

[jgwhiteus]

I agree with all of you that a level of unfairness toward homosexuals does exist all over Thedas, just not in the same way as our own world (we are much worse sadly). Merely being accepted does not equate to justice nor equality, that's for sure. Neither does calling it deviant or "a quirk of character", or calling it anything at all really.

 

What I was trying to get at is, on the subject of marriage in Tevinter specifically, arranged marriages are unfair to everyone. No one wants to have their partner chosen for them, or choose between having children or live the rest of your life in public shame. But if you look at it from the perspective of homosexuals only, then yes, I suppose you can call that a type of homophobia. Regardless, it's discrimination, whatever label one might use. Dorian disapproves of this strict nature of his society which leads him to rebel against it, and I like to believe he would have even as a straight man. I am in no way stating this as a fact, it's just how I see him.

 

If I missed the point of this discussion entirely then oops, but there you have my opinion anyway.

 

I think the way I'd put it is that disapproval of homosexuality (in both Tevinter and our society) isn't just about disapproving of relationships, but extends to disapproval of who you are - the people you are attracted to and fall in love with, the way you're "built". Many people view their sexual orientation as a facet of their identity, whereas the particular person they end up being attracted to involves a degree of choice and circumstance. Also, sexual orientation isn't something that people can choose or change for themselves, so when society or their family disapproves they aren't given much recourse - realistically you can fall in love with more than one partner in your lifetime, but you won't be falling in love romantically with a woman if you're gay like Dorian. So living in a society that mandates being married to a woman gives him no good choices if he wants to live honestly, whereas if he were attracted to women he could at least hold out hope of finding a woman he loved who was also a good match. That's what's missing for him in Tevinter, and why he probably turned to drinking / debauchery - he had no "hope".

 

Also, Dorian's pain at his father's attempt at blood magic isn't because Halward wanted to try to set him up with an eligible girl - it's because the father he trusted and loved was rejecting who he was; the way he was "built" wasn't ideal for Halward's purposes. If he'd been straight and had fallen in love with another girl besides the woman he was intended to marry, is it likely that Halward would have employed blood magic to change his choice of partner? Even if such blood magic existed, that would be a rejection of his partner ("she's not good enough"), not of Dorian himself ("YOU'RE not good enough"). When he confronts his father he yells "You tried to change ME".

 

I agree that in Tevinter society (and in our own) there are constraints and limitations on all people, and straight people who are forced into arranged marriages with someone they don't want to be with can feel miserable and trapped as well. But they generally don't have an extra serving of feeling like they're being rejected for who they are, especially by people they've grown up loving and trusting.

[shinynotshiny]

I appreciate your explanation, and I think I understand you more clearly now. After further consideration I am willing to agree with you. It is true that a lover of the same gender would have to remain hidden while someone of the opposite may not. While being reduced to having the one you love as an affair on the side is unfair for all parts, it is indeed worse if you have to keep it a secret. Somehow that particular bit slipped my mind completely.

 

So, thanks for explaining. 

 

Ah, no need to thank! I should work on explaining my point of view. I think jgwhiteus does a better job of that than I do

[Hothouse Orchid]

I think the way I'd put it is that disapproval of homosexuality (in both Tevinter and our society) extends to disapproval of who you are - the people you are attracted to and fall in love with, the way you're "built". Many people view their sexual orientation as a facet of their identity, whereas the particular person they end up being attracted to involves a degree of choice and circumstance. Also, sexual orientation isn't something that people can choose or change for themselves, so when society or their family disapproves they aren't given much recourse - realistically you can fall in love with more than one partner in your lifetime, but you won't be falling in love romantically with a woman if you're gay like Dorian. So living in a society that mandates being married to a woman gives him no good choices if he wants to live honestly, whereas if he were attracted to women he could at least hold out hope of finding a woman he loved who was also a good match. That's what's missing for him in Tevinter, and why he probably turned to drinking / debauchery - he had no "hope".

 

Also, Dorian's pain at his father's attempt at blood magic isn't because Halward wanted to try to set him up with an eligible girl - it's because the father he trusted and loved was rejecting who he was; his identity and the way he was "built" wasn't ideal for Halward's purposes. If he'd been straight and had fallen in love with another girl besides the woman he was intended to marry, is it likely that Halward would have employed blood magic to change his choice of partner? Even if such blood magic existed, that would be a rejection of his choice of partner, not of Dorian himself. When he confronts his father he yells "You tried to change ME".

 

I agree that in Tevinter society (and in our own) there are constraints and limitations on all people, and straight people who are forced into arranged marriages with someone they don't want to be with can feel miserable and trapped as well. But they generally don't have an extra serving of feeling like they're being rejected for who they are, especially by people they've grown up loving and trusting.

 

These are excellent points, especially the part about blood magic which is another thing I didn't consider. Thank you as well.

[Hazegurl]

I think the way I'd put it is that disapproval of homosexuality (in both Tevinter and our society) isn't just about disapproving of relationships, but extends to disapproval of who you are - the people you are attracted to and fall in love with, the way you're "built". Many people view their sexual orientation as a facet of their identity, whereas the particular person they end up being attracted to involves a degree of choice and circumstance. Also, sexual orientation isn't something that people can choose or change for themselves, so when society or their family disapproves they aren't given much recourse - realistically you can fall in love with more than one partner in your lifetime, but you won't be falling in love romantically with a woman if you're gay like Dorian. So living in a society that mandates being married to a woman gives him no good choices if he wants to live honestly, whereas if he were attracted to women he could at least hold out hope of finding a woman he loved who was also a good match. That's what's missing for him in Tevinter, and why he probably turned to drinking / debauchery - he had no "hope".

 

Also, Dorian's pain at his father's attempt at blood magic isn't because Halward wanted to try to set him up with an eligible girl - it's because the father he trusted and loved was rejecting who he was; his identity and the way he was "built" wasn't ideal for Halward's purposes. If he'd been straight and had fallen in love with another girl besides the woman he was intended to marry, is it likely that Halward would have employed blood magic to change his choice of partner? Even if such blood magic existed, that would be a rejection of his choice of partner, not of Dorian himself. When he confronts his father he yells "You tried to change ME".

 

I agree that in Tevinter society (and in our own) there are constraints and limitations on all people, and straight people who are forced into arranged marriages with someone they don't want to be with can feel miserable and trapped as well. But they generally don't have an extra serving of feeling like they're being rejected for who they are, especially by people they've grown up loving and trusting.

I agree completely.  After reading the Thedas 2 snippet on Dorian there is no way I can say he behaved liked that based solely on not wanting to marry someone he didn't want to.  It seems far too extreme and over dramatic for something like that to be the reason, and dare I say, childish.  I see his behavior as a person who believes he has no future at all.  Someone whose core self is rejected.  I can't even say if Dorian was trying to ruin his family's reputation or if he was simply giving people a reason to hate him since they were going to talk about him anyway.

 

Note: I'm not saying Dorian was being childish overall. I'm saying that if a simple marriage refusal was the only cause of him acting out then I see it as childish and a bit too much.

 

Also, it would have been nice to know if Halward would have changed his mind and allowed Dorian to marry another woman with lesser gifts, if Dorian was straight and fell in love. A part of me wants to say he would have allowed it but that's only because I believe Halward wants Dorian to be happy...within reason(as long as he gets heirs)....but I doubt he would resort to blood magic over a simple partner swap....I guess that's all speculation.

[shinynotshiny]

I agree completely.  After reading the Thedas 2 snippet on Dorian there is no way I can say he behaved liked that based solely on not wanting to marry someone he didn't want to.  It seems far too extreme and over dramatic for something like that to be the reason, and dare I say, childish.  I see his behavior as a person who believes he has no future at all.  Someone whose core self is rejected.  I can't even say if Dorian was trying to ruin his family's reputation or if he was simply giving people a reason to hate him since they were going to talk about him anyway.

 

Note: I'm not saying Dorian was being childish overall. I'm saying that if a simple marriage refusal was the only cause of him acting out then I see it as childish and a bit too much.

 

Also, it would have been nice to know if Halward would have changed his mind and allowed Dorian to marry another woman with lesser gifts, if Dorian was straight and fell in love. A part of me wants to say he would have allowed it but that's only because I believe Halward wants Dorian to be happy...within reason(as long as he gets heirs)....but I doubt he would resort to blood magic over a simple partner swap....I guess that's all speculation.

 

I'm sure it would've been different. Had he been straight, he would've had opportunities to develop relationships over time and possibly fall in love with the "right" or "acceptable" woman. I also think he would've found healthier ways to cope because he wouldn't have felt rejected by his father, and he would've formed meaningul relationships outside his family he could depend on.

[Arlee]

I post in other threads all the time!  I've seen some people get salty, but not of the "they see me trollin, they hatin" variety I see on places like Kotaku and the like.

 

I think I just pick bad threads. There have been a few times where I posted other places and came running back here wondering why I ever posted in a different thread lol

 

Spoiler

Additionally, the information about Felix seems a bit off from what is represented in the game. When your IQ asks if something is wrong with Felix Dorian responds with "He's had some lingering illness for months," which makes it far less time than the book states, and also makes it appear that Dorian doesn't know that it is the Blight sickness. Also, the time magic experimentation being a direct result of the darkspawn attack is extremely interesting, and certainly adds an element of pity to the whole thing. I already felt bad for Alexius--oculara aside, which is pretty despicable--but this makes it even more pitiful.

 

Finally, I think that all of this info will give a clearer picture of how old Dorian is, even if it's not explicitly stated. After reading this I'm certainly leaning more toward early 30s.

 

Spoiler

With Felix you have to remember he said that the first time he met the Inquisitor and there was a lot of reasons to keep that close. I mean just imagine how most people would react if they found out the guy who just fell on them had the blight. Also I imagine Dorian was protecting Felix on some level/respecting his privacy. So I totally forgive those inconsistencies because to me they make sense for them to be there.

 

Also yes, I think all of this does put him closer to late 20's/early 30's which makes me happy because that's how I imagined him

 

I saw that too, apparently he's quite surprised by the reactions it recieved as he wrote this to one of his replies: "I'm not sure why. It's pretty factual, isn't it? What feels are there to be had?"

 

Many feels, Gaider. Many feels.

 

That was pretty much my response to him on twitter lol. He says the silliest things sometimes.

 

Going off of the context of the WOT excerpt, The Last Resort of Good Men comes off a bit differently. Halward's expecting Dorian to back at rock bottom again, and that he ran off and joined the Inquistion just to spite him.

It turns out that Dorian actually takes his responsibility to help stop the Venatori seriously, and that he joined the Inquisition because it was the right thing to do. Also from Cole's banter, Dorian only ever wanted his father to be proud of him for who he is, not what he wanted him to be. He and Tyrion Lannister should start a club.

 

/nods in agreement

 

Oh speaking of banter with Cole! So I have been having trouble getting Dorian and Cole to talk but they finally started a few days ago. Ok so last night I go to take Suldan Keep. I get to the fight with Imshal do the talking thing, Imshal changes forms and Cole goes "Love isn't enough... Why isn't it enough?" and I'm all like "NOW! You want to have this conversation NOW?!" and when Dorian gets to the part where he's all "This really isn't walking around conversation" I yelled at him "We aren't walking around we are freaking killing a Desire Demon!" In hindsight it was pretty funny and I think I might post the video for it because lol. Also my husband thought me yelling at them about it was hysterical

 

While the game (DAI, not the Game) isn't the right context for it, I think there was some mention in Masked Empire of her reluctance or refusal to get married. However, it's presented more as an independence thing, or as part of the Game--as in, I'll leave myself open to give all of these eligible guys some hope; the Duke Leto Atreides school of thought--rather than as a devotion to her lover thing (which as we see didn't go very far anyway). There actually should be more of a push for Celene to get married because of succession and all that. I don't know if Gaspard has any children.

 

Yea.. All of that has a really big Queen Elizabeth feel to me.

[nightscrawl]

I see the Drama Llama has arrived. The primary thing I got from that WoT extract is that Dorian is largely incapable of handling emotional turmoil. I do not want to watch the self-destructive spiral if he and the Inquisitor ever break up. Or, god forbid, the Inquisitor dies.

I don't know... I think that being away from Tevinter, regardless of the romantic attachment with the IQ, has helped Dorian tremendously. I also think that he shows character growth throughout the relationship. While a loss would be devastating, and a return to this behavior is certainly possible, I wouldn't state it as a certainty.

 

Also, Dorian's pain at his father's attempt at blood magic isn't because Halward wanted to try to set him up with an eligible girl - it's because the father he trusted and loved was rejecting who he was; the way he was "built" wasn't ideal for Halward's purposes. If he'd been straight and had fallen in love with another girl besides the woman he was intended to marry, is it likely that Halward would have employed blood magic to change his choice of partner? Even if such blood magic existed, that would be a rejection of his partner ("she's not good enough"), not of Dorian himself ("YOU'RE not good enough"). When he confronts his father he yells "You tried to change ME".

This is put very well, and also how I think of Dorian's relationship with his father. However, I do want to add that there is a difference between the way Dorian as a character thinks, the way Halward as a character thinks, and the way David Gaider as the writer of both these men, and the arc as a whole (as well as a good chunk of Tevinter lore), thinks.

 

Dorian can never be the son his father wants. Dorian knows this. Halward knows this. I actually think that we see the light dawning on Halward just a bit in the tavern. His reaction to Dorian's tirade makes me wonder whether Dorian has ever spoken of the issue in this specific way before. I'm sure they've argued, but what was actually said is unknown. I take it as a positive sign that he seems truly remorseful. That he wanted to look at his son and hear his voice and asked for forgiveness really sounded like it was coming from the love of a parent.
 
 

I'm sure it would've been different. Had he been straight, he would've had opportunities to develop relationships over time and possibly fall in love with the "right" or "acceptable" woman.

Have to disagree with this. Eugenics doesn't work that way, and this is the primary concern. This isn't about strata in society, it is about breeding a specific type of individual. There likely would have been a few "eligible" women with the appropriate genes, then among those the best candidate is probably chosen as a match for the family's needs socially. Take Dorian's comments about his parents' union: "My mother was chosen for my father because magic runs strongly in her blood, never mind that they loathed each other."

While yes, part of the tragedy here IS a personal rejection of Dorian's self, I think it is premature to assume that he would have been so much better if he were straight. IMO it really depends on how one is as a person. To borrow from Star Trek, we deal with problems, "as with all living things, each according to his gifts." Halward and mama-Pavus dealt with it (in their own lives) because the performance of these roles met personal goals they had.

Some people conform and others don't. Dorian's parents conformed, and Dorian himself does not. Dorian's homosexuality is an additional element in this case. You don't think there aren't other homosexual Tevinter nobles in the same position as Dorian, and that there haven't been for thousands of years? Each of those individuals will have dealt with the predicament in their own way, and for some (yes, these do exist), other considerations will take precedent over romantic ones.

 

Now, I will grant that it is a fault with the society as a whole that allows this type of thinking; and the notion of breeding a perfect individual of any kind is troubling.

 

Finally, I do agree with your point as a whole, especially as it relates to society and people in general. But is just seems that whenever this issue is discussed in relation to Dorian that other factors about his life, his personality, and Tevinter society are overshadowed by his homosexuality, as if that is the one predominant factor in his life.

 

I also think he would've found healthier ways to cope because he wouldn't have felt rejected by his father, and he would've formed meaningul relationships outside his family he could depend on.

I do agree here. It makes Felix's death especially sad and hard-hitting, even though it was a long time coming.

[shinynotshiny]

Have to disagree with this. Eugenics doesn't work that way, and this is the primary concern. This isn't about strata in society, it is about breeding a specific type of individual. There likely would have been a few "eligible" women with the appropriate genes, then among those the best candidate is probably chosen as a match for the family's needs socially. Take Dorian's comments about his parents' union: "My mother was chosen for my father because magic runs strongly in her blood, never mind that they loathed each other."

While yes, part of the tragedy here IS a personal rejection of Dorian's self, I think it is premature to assume that he would have been so much better if he were straight. IMO it really depends on how one is as a person. To borrow from Star Trek, we deal with problems, "as with all living things, each according to his gifts." Halward and mama-Pavus dealt with it (in their own lives) because the performance of these roles met personal goals they had.

Some people conform and others don't. Dorian's parents conformed, and Dorian himself does not. Dorian's homosexuality is an additional element in this case. You don't think there aren't other homosexual Tevinter nobles in the same position as Dorian, and that there haven't been for thousands of years? Each of those individuals will have dealt with the predicament in their own way, and for some (yes, these do exist), other considerations will take precedent over romantic ones.

 

Now, I will grant that it is a fault with the society as a whole that allows this type of thinking; and the notion of breeding a perfect individual of any kind is troubling.

 

Finally, I do agree with your point as a whole, especially as it relates to society and people in general. But is just seems that whenever this issue is discussed in relation to Dorian that other factors about his life, his personality, and Tevinter society are overshadowed by his homosexuality, as if that is the one predominant factor in his life.

 

Ah, here we go. Someone can't talk about a character's sexual orientation without being accused of reducing that character to their orientation. For the record, I'm not straight myself and know what it feels like for people to look at me and only consider who I have sex with. It's demeaning and not what I intend to do when talking about Dorian's orientation, especially if it's relevant to the topic at hand.

 

It's true that straight couples would have hated each other, but it's also true they could have liked each other or grown used to each other. In Dorian's case, there was no chance of liking or growing used to.

 

You don't think there aren't other homosexual Tevinter nobles in the same position as Dorian, and that there haven't been for thousands of years?

 

Oh my goodness. I'm not even going to start.

 

To end, I never argued his life would have been "so much better," only that there would have existed a chance of it being so much better. I used the word possibly in the post you quoted. As for eugenics, yes, it's why I put the words "right" and "acceptable" in quotation marks. I acknowledge it's not as simple as finding a woman you love and getting married.

 

I also do believe he would have had an easier time forming healthy relationships outside of his family. Why? Because he wouldn't have carried around the weight of his father's rejection and wouldn't have felt the need to spite him. Does that mean he would conform to other Tevinter customs? No. But his acting out had a lot to do with his father's rejection, and that rejection had to do with an important aspect of Dorian's identity.

[nightscrawl]

Ah, here we go.

Oh my goodness. I'm not even going to start.

I don't believe I've warranted these kind of remarks, especially considering my posting history of this character and these issues on this forum, discussion of which goes far beyond this thread and your comments regarding the character. I'll give a pass since you can't be expected to know that, but I'll drop out of the conversation now.