22173 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Doctor]

I'm sure it would've been different. Had he been straight, he would've had opportunities to develop relationships over time and possibly fall in love with the "right" or "acceptable" woman. I also think he would've found healthier ways to cope because he wouldn't have felt rejected by his father, and he would've formed meaningul relationships outside his family he could depend on.

I get the impression that a lot of Dorian's early rebellion is just because he wanted attention from his parents. Having a father who was on the Archon's council, and a mother who from the sound of it wasn't all that warm makes it seem like he'd be pretty lonely. Getting shipped off to what is essentially boarding school probably didn't help matters. Making Halward proud of him at some point was very important to Dorian, then once he came to the realization that he couldn't do that by being himself everything just kind of fell apart.

Halward thinks that the only thing Dorian's interested in drinking and cavorting around Tyrion Lannister-style. He has no idea that his son not only cares about his homeland, but that he also took his lessons about being principle to heart.

Also, the WOT except also gives some context for "Can I at least get a kiss? I can't leave empty-handed, I have a reputation to keep." line if you choose to take it slow during the romance scene.

[shinynotshiny]

I don't believe I've warranted these kind of remarks, especially considering my posting history of this character and these issues on this forum, discussion of which goes far beyond this thread and your comments regarding the character. I'll give a pass since you can't be expected to know that, but I'll drop out of the conversation now.

 

It was condescending, especially given the circumstances, but I suppose you wouldn't have known that.

[shinynotshiny]

I get the impression that a lot of Dorian's early rebellion is just because he wanted attention from his parents. Having a father who was on the Archon's council, and a mother who from the sound of it wasn't all that warm makes it seem like he'd be pretty lonely. Getting shipped off to what is essentially boarding school probably didn't help matters. Making Halward proud of him at some point was very important to Dorian, then once he came to the realization that he couldn't do that by being himself everything just kind of fell apart.

Halward thinks that the only thing Dorian's interested in drinking and cavorting around Tyrion Lannister-style. He has no idea that his son not only cares about his homeland, but that he also took his lessons about being principle to heart.

Also, the WOT except also gives some context for "Can I at least get a kiss? I can't leave empty-handed, I have a reputation to keep." line if you choose to take it slow during the romance scene.

 

That's also true. I'm reminded of his comment about the lake and his mother.

 

I think he reached a point where he felt like nothing he could do would gain his approval, especially when he couldn't fulfill his "duty" as a son.

[nightscrawl]

To veer away a bit... I don't usually like to post tumblr comments and remark on them, but I was interested in what you all thought, since I've been thinking about it since I read it.

 

This was a reply to the WoT posting (I don't feel comfortable linking, but you could find it if you tried):
 

and this sums up all the parts about dorian that make me profoundly uncomfortable.  what i want to know is if these elven slums  and the elven brothel he winds up at belong to elven slaves or not (there seems to be a lack of clarity about if there is a significant population of free elves in tevinter or not).  because, you know, dorian having sex with someone who cannot consent is extremely gross and basically ruins his character for me entirely.  and we cannot find it out of character since he’s a slave apologist who enjoyed the benefits of the care of slaves when in his father’s (and presumably alexius’s) house.

yeah, so, i’m just going to throw my hands up in the air and walk away now.  i don’t actually want to know, on second thought.

 

 

I think it IS an interesting idea to ponder, and I rather doubt whether any more of the WoT expounds on it or answers that person's questions. But I will say, as a VERY minor, somewhat defense, that it didn't necessarily have to be a brothel with elven slaves. I would think that a brothel in the "slums" would have "free" (to use the term loosely here) elves, whereas one in the Gilded Quarter (which Alexius mentions) would indeed have slaves.

 

I suppose it boils down to your views on prostitution in general; the practitioners, their work, their exploitation, and the individuals who pay for such services.

 

I do think that it tends to reflect poorly, but such a revelation was not a surprise to me, and I don't think it is character ruining. Dorian is anything but perfect -- ha, I think I claimed he was once in this thread, but I had recently finished the romance for the first time and was still euphoric over its awesomeness -- and that is what makes him so compelling.

 

 

Also, the WOT except also gives some context for "Can I at least get a kiss? I can't leave empty-handed, I have a reputation to keep." line if you choose to take it slow during the romance scene.

 

Geez, I totally forgot about that. /sigh, oh Dorian...

[shinynotshiny]

I think it IS an interesting idea to ponder, and I rather doubt whether any more of the WoT expounds on it or answers that person's questions. But I will say, as a VERY minor, somewhat defense, that it didn't necessarily have to be a brothel with elven slaves. I would think that a brothel in the "slums" would have "free" (to use the term loosely here) elves, whereas one in the Gilded Quarter (which Alexius mentions) would indeed have slaves.

 

I suppose it boils down to your views on prostitution in general; the practitioners, their work, their exploitation, and the individuals who pay for such services.

 

I do think that it tends to reflect poorly, but such a revelation was not a surprise to me, and I don't think it is character ruining. Dorian is anything but perfect -- ha, I think I claimed he was once in this thread, but I had recently finished the romance for the first time and was still euphoric over its awesomeness -- and that is what makes him so compelling.

 

Hm... I agree (edit: as in, I agree with you, not the comment). My first assumption is that elves in the slums are "free," although we can also argue that not all of the elves working in the brother chose to do so willingly. So, yeah, there's a lot of gray area. I also have to wonder what motivated Dorian to make that choice.

 

About being a slave apologist. That comment took me back to DA:O and a conversation you can have with Leliana if you play as an elf. The conversation isn't that much different (if I'm remembering it correctly). In their case, I think their views are mostly due to ignorance -- which isn't a  good thing, and it doesn't excuse them, but "slave apologist" carries a heavier connotation (in my opinion, at least). I think I'll look for the actual dialogue.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I don't remember anything in the excerpt saying that the brothels were elven. There are plenty of human slaves as well and if the prostitutes in Tevinter brothels are slaves, I'm sure plenty of them are human. Dorian seems pretty uncomfortable and guilty around elves because he acknowledges that the way Tevinter treated elves is inexcusable even if he's indifferent to slavery as a concept, so I doubt he would choose elven prostitutes. That Tumblr post sounds like typical elf fan special snowflakes taking a fictional race way to freaking seriously.

[nightscrawl]

Hm... I agree. My first assumption is that elves in the slums are "free," although we can also argue that not all of the elves working in the brother chose to do so willingly. So, yeah, there's a lot of gray area. I also have to wonder what motivated Dorian to make that choice.

 

About being a slave apologist. That comment took me back to DA:O and a conversation you can have with Leliana if you play as an elf. The conversation isn't that much different (if I'm remembering it correctly). In their case, I think their views are mostly due to ignorance -- which isn't a  good thing, and it doesn't excuse them, but "slave apologist" carries a heavier connotation (in my opinion, at least). I think I'll look for the actual dialogue.

 

Yes... the person seems to be suggesting that, had Dorian chosen a brothel with free workers versus slaves that it would be better, which, to my mind is rather absurd. Also, let's not forget that there are human slaves in Tevinter as well as elven ones, so even if he had gone to a human, or mixed brothel instead he might still have been dealing with slaves. We can't know for sure either way.

 

Like you, I think that "slave apologist" is a weightier term and is also not appropriate. I do think it's disappointing that this person thinks this revelation is character ruining. These events happened three to four years before DAI takes place, and as of yet we don't know what happened in the intervening years. Dorian does seem to have mellowed a bit and people can change.

 

Kinda makes me wonder what this person did with the whole Blackwall decision...

 

 

I don't remember anything in the excerpt saying that the brothels were elven. There are plenty of human slaves as well and if the prostitutes in Tevinter brothels are slaves, I'm sure plenty of them are human. Dorian seems pretty uncomfortable and guilty around elves because he acknowledges that the way Tevinter treated elves is inexcusable even if he's indifferent to slavery as a concept, so I doubt he would choose elven prostitutes. That Tumblr post sounds like typical elf fan special snowflakes taking a fictional race way to freaking seriously.

 

I had to hunt for it after I read the person's comment because it's given the barest mention among all of the other mess. It's near the top of the page: "... only to turn up in a drunken stupor in a house of ill repute in the elven slums." This does seem to suggest that it's an elven brothel.

 

That said, I don't think the feelings of negativity should be confined to a certain race, simply because elves are more downtrodden than humans in Thedas.

 

[edit]

To your comments about Dorian specifically, sure that's how he feels now. And even if he had an inkling of those same feelings at the time he might have gone ahead anyway, simply because it would have added to the whole aspect of debauchery, scandal, debasement, and self-loathing.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 avril 2015 - 03:13 .

[shinynotshiny]

Yes... the person seems to be suggesting that, had Dorian chosen a brothel with free workers versus slaves that it would be better, which, to my mind is rather absurd. Also, let's not forget that there are human slaves in Tevinter as well as elven ones, so even if he had gone to a human, or mixed brothel instead he might still have been dealing with slaves. We can't know for sure either way.

 

Like you, I think that "slave apologist" is a weightier term and is also not appropriate. I do think it's disappointing that this person thinks this revelation is character ruining. These events happened three to four years before DAI takes place, and as of yet we don't know what happened in the intervening years. Dorian does seem to have mellowed a bit and people can change.

 

Kinda makes me wonder what this person did with the whole Blackwall decision...

 

Yeah, I think this person is jumping to conclusions; and free or not, you're still going to encounter people who don't want to be doing what they're doing.

 

I don't think it's character ruining, certainly not in the way Anders' comment about Fenris and Danarius was character ruining (for me).

 

Ah. Blackwall. Maybe I'll like him in my third playthrough

 

Edit: so many typos tonight.

 

Concerning your own edit... the idea that he would go to an elven brothel because it's more scandalous and debasing does bother me, but like you said, he's had years to reevaluate his choices.

[nightscrawl]

Concerning your own edit... the idea that he would go to an elven brothel because it's more scandalous and debasing does bother me, but like you said, he's had years to reevaluate his choices.

 

He was so f'd up...

 

I'm almost afraid to read the Fenris entry now. DG really knows how to write some messed up characters.

[shinynotshiny]

He was so f'd up...

 

I'm almost afraid to read the Fenris entry now. DG really knows how to write some messed up characters.

 

I knew he hurt a lot, I mean, Cole made it very clear. But now I'm just.... let me hug you, Dorian. Just let me hug you.

 

And I can't be mean to Fenris.

[Hazegurl]

Wow, someone on Tumblr thinks something is offensive, what a freaking shocker.  It must be rough being that person's friend or lover and expected to live up to impossible inhuman levels of perfection or be tainted forever as a person.

 

*Rant*

 

I don't get the idea that Dorian should be the one special moral snow flake out of millions of people in his country just to be the "good" Tevinter.   That brothel was probably full of people who either chose to be there, were sold to the owner, or there for any other reason one would be there to sell themselves.  What is Dorian supposed to do?  Hear every elf's life story before buying them? Or not go there at all due to feeling guilty over elven plight?

 

Is it messed up that he would probably pick an elven brothel for scandal purposes? Yeah.  But all it shows is that Dorian is a byproduct of his environment.   Which does view certain groups in a certain manner. I don't mind Dorian's views on elves and slaves, I disagree with them and believe the IQ should have been given more options during the conversation, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have them.  And I personally like that it can be argued that while he may have changed some of his views since joining the Inquisition he probably still has some of the views of his country embedded in him.  I personally don't even like the fact that he walks around feeling guilty about the elves as he comes across as a person suffering from "white guilt" which in itself is based on arrogance.  Like no other group has ever done wrong to another, no other group has ever bothered to conquer or enslave another or the purposes of seeking power and wealth.  That's why I love Solas telling Dorian to hush, and reminded him that elves weren't above the same actions. 

 

This is why I can't role an elf (aside from their messed up bodies) and romance Dorian, I wouldn't be able to stop thinking that Dorian is romancing my boy cause he has to, to prove that he's different or because he feels bad about the plight of elves or something. Not that I'm saying it is that way, but that's just how I would view the relationship.  Walking around carrying that guilt isn't any better, IMO.

 

Anyway, enough half incoherent ranting. lol!  I guess I'm saying overall is that I don't think Dorian is perfect nor should he be just to be considered a good person.  I love his flaws, his kneejerk defense of his countrymen and slavery, and the fact that he may never completely change.  I also like the fact that he does change some of his views, like people do, when he comes into contact with different people et al.  If Dorian showed up at Skyhold automatically perfect with the most PC views despite his home country et al I would have hated his freaking character and dismissed him entirely.

[shinynotshiny]

That was one of the things I liked about Dorian as a character. His strongest views are based on his life experiences and the struggles he grew up with. Even though he's definitely right about one thing, he's definitely wrong about another. Just because someone belongs to a group with minority status, for example, doesn't mean they'll understand minority experiences outside of their own. It was a good way to emphasize his privileged upbringing and the way he needs to continue developing his opinion about Tevinter.

 

I do think it's messed up that he would choose an elven brothel because it's more scandalous and/or debasing. It reinforces the belief that elves are beneath humans or somehow forbidden (because Dorian likes the forbidden, right?) but I also think there was a lot of self-loathing behind his actions. Ultimately, I would have liked better conversation options when talking to him.

 

I don't plan on romancing him with an elf either. (Because I still haven't romanced him...) In DA2, I couldn't bring myself to romance Fenris with a mage. I know it is (or was) a popular pairing, but it made me uncomfortable.

[FiveThreeTen]

Tumblr drama.

How some of these people are prone to overreact always baffles me.

 

Anyways, those few pages of the preview were interesting, and I don't feel that they are dissonant with what we knew of Dorian ingame.

[Fredward]

Elven slums implies poverty so I imagine the brothel was a mix of free elves there because of desperation and those because they're enslaved. It's interesting to see everyone taking these revelations and running to their own corners with it, using it to shore up whatever conceptualization they had of Dorian beforehand.

[nightscrawl]

Elven slums implies poverty so I imagine the brothel was a mix of free elves there because of desperation and those because they're enslaved. It's interesting to see everyone taking these revelations and running to their own corners with it, using it to shore up whatever conceptualization they had of Dorian beforehand.

 
While I wasn't completely surprised by any of the revelations, neither did I expect them. I was under the impression that Dorian drank quite a bit, particularly in his younger years. I also thought that he probably had a lot of random sexual encounters, but that they were with other young men in similar circumstances. Now that I think of it, this actually makes the Relinus banter more interesting. Granted we don't know when this actually occurred, but if Dorian was reluctant to approach one of his peers, it makes me wonder what the ratio of peer to prostitute sex was.

 

I certainly did not expect something so extreme as what was revealed. The level of debauchery really shows how damaged he was. That he confided in Alexius on meeting him, and that Alexius, a practical stranger, could see it when Halward could not, really brings home Dorian's remark that "what my father knows of me would barely fill a thimble." It's pathetic. It sure as hell makes me like Alexius more though.

[Hazegurl]

That was one of the things I liked about Dorian as a character. His strongest views are based on his life experiences and the struggles he grew up with. Even though he's definitely right about one thing, he's definitely wrong about another. Just because someone belongs to a group with minority status, for example, doesn't mean they'll understand minority experiences outside of their own. It was a good way to emphasize his privileged upbringing and the way he needs to continue developing his opinion about Tevinter.

 

I do think it's messed up that he would choose an elven brothel because it's more scandalous and/or debasing. It reinforces the belief that elves are beneath humans or somehow forbidden (because Dorian likes the forbidden, right?) but I also think there was a lot of self-loathing behind his actions. Ultimately, I would have liked better conversation options when talking to him.

 

I don't plan on romancing him with an elf either. (Because I still haven't romanced him...) In DA2, I couldn't bring myself to romance Fenris with a mage. I know it is (or was) a popular pairing, but it made me uncomfortable.

I loved romancing Fenris as a mage and rivalmancing him.  I wasn't interested in changing his views or be the "good mage" for him, but I did want to understand his opinion more...and I enjoyed ticking him off. lol!!  Funny enough, I went into DA2 aiding the mages and by the end I began to lean more into the Templar camp due to talking to Fenris and of course the events of the game itself.  idk, I'm not keen on the whole "I need to change your ways and make you a better person." romances.   So I enjoyed Fenris and Mage Hawke's particular brand of fiery dysfunction. 

 

With Dorian, you can't rival him as an elf, and he spends half the game feeling guilty and apologizing for the big bad Tevinter that destroyed and sucked Elven knowledge dry et al.  If I played an elf I don't think I would be able to stand being with him.  I don't care to pull out my carving tool to make the perfect guilt ridden BF who needs to change his ways for me.

 

 

[DirkJake]

 

 

I certainly did not expect something so extreme as what was revealed. The level of debauchery really shows how damaged he was. That he confided in Alexius on meeting him, and that Alexius, a practical stranger, could see it when Halward could not, really brings home Dorian's remark that "what my father knows of me would barely fill a thimble." It's pathetic. It sure as hell makes me like Alexius more though.

 

Yeah those excerpts from WoT 2 make me feel sad about my favorite characters even more. They are just so broken and damaged. 

[nightscrawl]

With Dorian, you can't rival him as an elf, and he spends half the game feeling guilty and apologizing for the big bad Tevinter that destroyed and sucked Elven knowledge dry et al.  If I played an elf I don't think I would be able to stand being with him.  I don't care to pull out my carving tool to make the perfect guilt ridden BF who needs to change his ways for me.

Is the dialog really that different? I kind of assumed that there was a basic template with all of the same dialog for all of the races, and perhaps a sprinkling of alternate lines for each race.

[Hazegurl]

Is the dialog really that different? I kind of assumed that there was a basic template with all of the same dialog for all of the races, and perhaps a sprinkling of alternate lines for each race.

I haven't romanced Dorian as an elf.  I'm mostly referring to the elimination of the friend/rival system from DA2.  I have read that Dorian changes his mind on the slavery system in Tevinter, but I don't remember getting a confirmation of this with my human so I assume this is something that occurs with an elf IQ.  You still get to argue with him about slavery in Tevinter as a human but I don't think it's brought up anymore afterwards and Dorian seems to get the last word.  Unless I'm wrong about that.

[Reznore57]

I haven't romanced Dorian as an elf.  I'm mostly referring to the elimination of the friend/rival system from DA2.  I have read that Dorian changes his mind on the slavery system in Tevinter, but I don't remember getting a confirmation of this with my human so I assume this is something that occurs with an elf IQ.  You still get to argue with him about slavery in Tevinter as a human but I don't think it's brought up anymore afterwards and Dorian seems to get the last word.  Unless I'm wrong about that.

 

You don't talk about slavery with Dorian as an elf.Well you have the same dialogue as humans.

I think there's only one dialogue when he asks about you being Dalish , and he says he doesn't know much about Dalish because the clans avoid Tevinter.

 

And that's it.

The rest of the romance is exactly the same as human.

[Arlee]

Wow, someone on Tumblr thinks something is offensive, what a freaking shocker.  It must be rough being that person's friend or lover and expected to live up to impossible inhuman levels of perfection or be tainted forever as a person.

 

It's sort of funny because the one really argument type thing we had in here (where a mod actually stepped in) started because of something someone said on Tumbler. I agree with everything else you said too, but I think people tend to want to reduce other people down to their simplest things because it's easier that way which is probably why we so much of this. I've seen people do it with Solas and Cullen too (probably all the companions I just haven't seen it).

 

 
I certainly did not expect something so extreme as what was revealed. The level of debauchery really shows how damaged he was. That he confided in Alexius on meeting him, and that Alexius, a practical stranger, could see it when Halward could not, really brings home Dorian's remark that "what my father knows of me would barely fill a thimble." It's pathetic. It sure as hell makes me like Alexius more though.

 

I think Dorian did actually put some effort into hiding his true self from his father, and my impression is he likely never really talked to his father seriously about any of it. I'm sure he probably joked or said things sarcastically, but that's about it. Also, people outside the family can often see what is plain even when parents can not. Part of the problem is parents often get a certain view of their children based on things happening when at a point and that's what they go with. Kids do it to their parents as well. They get an idea of who their parents are based on what they have seen and behave a certain way based on that judgement, but since they don't know what their parents were like before their judgements aren't entirely informed and the way they act in their their misjudgement will often perpetuate the parent's misjudgement.

 

Is the dialog really that different? I kind of assumed that there was a basic template with all of the same dialog for all of the races, and perhaps a sprinkling of alternate lines for each race.

 

No it's mostly the same. There's this brief convo about the Dalish (it's the first bit then it goes into normal Dorian convo):

 

I do like the banter Dorian has with Solas where Solas tells him he should stop feeling bad about the past and work to make now better. It was perhaps a bit too harsh, but it was a very valid point and sort of did need to be said somewhere.

[shinynotshiny]

I loved romancing Fenris as a mage and rivalmancing him.  I wasn't interested in changing his views or be the "good mage" for him, but I did want to understand his opinion more...and I enjoyed ticking him off. lol!!  Funny enough, I went into DA2 aiding the mages and by the end I began to lean more into the Templar camp due to talking to Fenris and of course the events of the game itself.  idk, I'm not keen on the whole "I need to change your ways and make you a better person." romances.   So I enjoyed Fenris and Mage Hawke's particular brand of fiery dysfunction. 

 

With Dorian, you can't rival him as an elf, and he spends half the game feeling guilty and apologizing for the big bad Tevinter that destroyed and sucked Elven knowledge dry et al.  If I played an elf I don't think I would be able to stand being with him.  I don't care to pull out my carving tool to make the perfect guilt ridden BF who needs to change his ways for me.

 

 

 

This response...

 

Yeah, the "be the good mage" and "change your ways" aspect was what bothered me. Some of his comments during a romance are sweet, but they also made me wonder (ex. "I am yours" and "I enjoy following you.") In the end, I just stuck with an easygoing rogue

[Hazegurl]

You don't talk about slavery with Dorian as an elf.Well you have the same dialogue as humans.

I think there's only one dialogue when he asks about you being Dalish , and he says he doesn't know much about Dalish because the clans avoid Tevinter.

 

And that's it.

The rest of the romance is exactly the same as human.

Ah, the vid below clears it up and I do remember that slavery argument.  It makes me wonder where one would get that Dorian realized that Tevinter was wrong about slavery. At most he just realizes things are different elsewhere while still defending his country.  At least that's what I got from the exchange.

 

I will say that, what irritates me the most about the slavery convo is that no matter what, you're railroaded into fighting with him about it no matter your race.

 

Arlee: I do like the banter Dorian has with Solas where Solas tells him he should stop feeling bad about the past and work to make now better. It was perhaps a bit too harsh, but it was a very valid point and sort of did need to be said somewhere.

 

 

 

I think that is my favorite Solas/Dorian banter because I think Dorian really needed to hear that.  I was playing a human and even I was tired of listening to Dorian apologize about Tevinter and the elves.   Sadly, Solas encouraging Dorian to make it better is just one more thing that keeps me from using emotional blackmail to keep Dorian with my IQ.

 

This response...

 

Yeah, the "be the good mage" and "change your ways" aspect was what bothered me. Some of his comments during a romance are sweet, but they also made me wonder (ex. "I am yours" and "I enjoy following you.") In the end, I just stuck with an easygoing rogue

lol! Ah Isabella. My second canon romance. I love her.

 

Yeah Fenris can be a bit...master/slave ish...if that's what you were thinking when you wrote that his sweet lines made you wonder... at least they came across that way to me. lol!

[shinynotshiny]

lol! Ah Isabella. My second canon romance. I love her.

 

Yeah Fenris can be a bit...master/slave ish...if that's what you were thinking when you wrote that his sweet lines made you wonder... at least they came across that way to me. lol!

 

I preferred the Isabella and Fenris romances in DA2. I had a laugh when I realized they get together if you don't romance either of them

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. There's nothing wrong with that dynamic if it's coming from a healthy place, but Fenris... yeah.

[Yuyana]

That was one of the things I liked about Dorian as a character. His strongest views are based on his life experiences and the struggles he grew up with. Even though he's definitely right about one thing, he's definitely wrong about another. Just because someone belongs to a group with minority status, for example, doesn't mean they'll understand minority experiences outside of their own. It was a good way to emphasize his privileged upbringing and the way he needs to continue developing his opinion about Tevinter.

 

I do think it's messed up that he would choose an elven brothel because it's more scandalous and/or debasing. It reinforces the belief that elves are beneath humans or somehow forbidden (because Dorian likes the forbidden, right?) but I also think there was a lot of self-loathing behind his actions. Ultimately, I would have liked better conversation options when talking to him.

 

I don't plan on romancing him with an elf either. (Because I still haven't romanced him...) In DA2, I couldn't bring myself to romance Fenris with a mage. I know it is (or was) a popular pairing, but it made me uncomfortable.

Alexius was in that brothel too, and I doubt he was there to cause a scandal. We don't know why he picked that place, or if he wanted people to find him there.