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[nightscrawl]

^ Well it's really a balance, isn't it? Especially on successive plays where you know what the options and results are, I think it can be difficult (for some) to stick with the roleplay and pick the thing your character would actually say, rather than go with something else to get the result you want.

 

I usually pick the "Is that what you want?" > "You know you're more than that" path because I like the chiding tone that the Inquisitor says the second line with. I always pick the interrogatory responses because I try to poke Dorian into telling me what he wants, and to let him know that I care about that. Also, I think it's more "fun" to try and suss out Dorian's though process rather than by being direct and demanding, especially when Dorian himself is not that way.

 

But all three paths are good, I think. This is a good one too...

[Suddenly modest?] All of a sudden, that's all you are?

Dorian: That's not all I am, but I'm not the great holy hope of southern Thedas.

 

So much fun flavor.

[Gervaise]

The problem is that I need one extra exchange after the first one.   If I had been given something witty to say after his "calf eyes at puppies", I wouldn't have minded so much.   So top option, Dorian responds, bottom option would have suited me fine.   But that isn't allowed.    I might go for the middle option when I get there because I nearly did last time.    Stupid thing is about his comment about sentimentality is that whilst I might be a hopeless romantic where Dorian is concerned, the rest of the time I'm anything but sentimental, certainly when it comes to killing things or letting them be killed (thinking about Celene with that one).   When it comes to affairs of the heart though, I suppose you could say I'm guilty as charged; I scupper the matchmaker's plans with that couple in Orlais.    Come to think of it I make a fair few waves in Orlais.     Anyway I see no harm in a little bit of tweaking of my character, it would be boring if I played him exactly the same as the first time and occasionally I did choose what I considered a "safe" option because I really didn't want to find out several exchanges later that I had done something to stop the romance without intending to.

[Gervaise]

Maker, I haven't scared everyone away have I?   I was hoping they'd have been a few pictures since my last post.   Still I've got loads of stuff on my mind about Dorian so here goes:

 

Necromancy: I've not taken this specialty myself but, if you do, I believe he says something about visiting the Grand Mecropolis in Nevarra.   Does he also say why he chose to be a necromancer?     I'm wondering if it has to with rebelling against Tevinter traditions in a way, because most of the mages from Tevinter that we've met have used blood magic to control spirits but that is not how true necromancy works or the philosophy behind it (according to our trainer when you talk to him).   Also I was wondering if the reason Cole seems to have such an interest in Dorian is not simply because he is hurting but also because he has a closer link with spirits than most mages.   He wants to help because Dorian's link with the spirit world makes it that much easier for Cole to feel his pain.

 

Races/Background Chat: I notice that the conversation with other races/a mage, particularly the human one, are more relaxed than for the elven one; Dorian seems happier to chat on and make witty comments.    So it occurred to me that this is Dorian acknowledging the whole slave thing, even if you don't bring it up.    He feels awkward and it shows.   It is noticeable that if  when you take the role of Inquisitor you say take the elf race option, Dorian is the only person apart from Solas who approves.  I've always wondered about that.   Whether the Inquisitor is an elf or not he was sorry for what he believed his countrymen had done to Arlathan.   Then when he discovers the truth, he wants it to be known and I have the feeling that is not just to take his people down a peg or two but because of this sense he seems to have of needing to atone for the past.   He values history and doesn't want it to be lost.    So now I feel really guilty about wanting him to stay because I want the truth to be known too.    If  Dorian is prepared to sacrifice his happiness to make it known, so should I.    Sigh.   Now that is the long post epilogue chat we ought to have had and I will now have to role play in my head.   I feel an appropriate time would be after returning from the Frostback Basin because we discovered certain truths there that would have me ranting on about the subject.

 

Dorian the Researcher in Books: I am old enough to remember a time before Google when if you wanted to find something out you had to take a trip to your local library.   If it wasn't there, you might have to travel further afield to regional or even the national archives.    For some pieces of information you still have to do this.   I share his frustration in finding that what is supposed to be reference section on a particular subject is in fact extremely limited.   I'd like to travel back with him to Tevinter not just because I want to stay with him but to visit the archives of Minthrathous, which everyone seems to agree are likely to have the oldest records still in existence, unless of course we uncover another old elven ruin that hasn't been picked clean.     Along with Rivain, Tevinter is one of the places that I really do want to visit so I hope it really is our destination in the next game.

 

Dorian the Warrior:   In his conversation with a qunari Inquisitor he mentions how his only experience with real Qunari is running from the guy with the sword.   Do you suppose this is just a joke or perhaps he has had some military service?    There is no mention of this in WoT2 but it would make sense that even young Altus would be expected to gain a bit of field experience seeing as they are officially at war with the Qun, even if it isn't actually on the front line in Seheron but some post on the mainland where occasional skirmishes occur.

[tklivory]

I found these pieces quite provocative and haunting, and apologies if they've been posted before. Both are from the Tumblr blog of herbstregen.

[shinynotshiny]

Necromancy: I've not taken this specialty myself but, if you do, I believe he says something about visiting the Grand Mecropolis in Nevarra.   Does he also say why he chose to be a necromancer?     I'm wondering if it has to with rebelling against Tevinter traditions in a way, because most of the mages from Tevinter that we've met have used blood magic to control spirits but that is not how true necromancy works or the philosophy behind it (according to our trainer when you talk to him).   Also I was wondering if the reason Cole seems to have such an interest in Dorian is not simply because he is hurting but also because he has a closer link with spirits than most mages.   He wants to help because Dorian's link with the spirit world makes it that much easier for Cole to feel his pain.

 

I hadn't thought of it that way. I remember a party banter between Dorian and Cassandra where he says he's always wanted to visit the Grand Necropolis, and Cassandra says it's not as interesting as he imagines it to be. I think his specializing in necromancy is due to (1) genuine interest on his part, and (2) his way of exploring "the forbidden" as he's prone to do. According to the wiki, Cole actually disapproves if you talk to him after specializing in necromancy, so I imagine Cole's interest in Dorian has more to do with his overall personality and internal struggles.

 

 

Dorian the Warrior:   In his conversation with a qunari Inquisitor he mentions how his only experience with real Qunari is running from the guy with the sword.   Do you suppose this is just a joke or perhaps he has had some military service?    There is no mention of this in WoT2 but it would make sense that even young Altus would be expected to gain a bit of field experience seeing as they are officially at war with the Qun, even if it isn't actually on the front line in Seheron but some post on the mainland where occasional skirmishes occur.

 

I think it's interesting that Dorian appears more physically fit than mages we've seen so far in the series. Maybe it's a personal preference, or maybe it's more common in Tevinter because having magical ability is treated favorably (mages are not as restricted or confined, and they have more freedom to pursue additional interests). It also makes sense to promote some kind of physical training due to the nature of their relationship with the qunari.

 

-

 

tklivory, wow

 

I especially like the second one. Oh Dorian.

[Gervaise]

I just wonder if we are eventually going to find out there was more going on in that 2-3 year gap in his CV than simply being a wandering beggar.   WoT2 is written like a magazine article where the author has managed to find out a fair bit of information but they don't know it all; hence the fact that they don't know about the blood magic ritual being the cause of the final rift between Dorian and his father.   

 

When he comments on me taking the assassin speciality he mentions how he could put me in touch with some Tevinter specialists in that field if I wanted.   Now I suppose he could have got friendly with assassins at the brothels he visited, although I would have thought it was not normally something you'd advertise.   The whole point of an assassin is that you don't know that's what they are until they strike.   If he hasn't had any close relations with anyone, then he would not be on the sort of terms where someone would confide in him.    Yet I don't see Dorian as someone who would be engaging an assassin to work for him

 

I suppose it is the romantic in me but I keep wondering if Dorian was some sort of Scarlet Pimpernel figure.   Publically he promotes this image of him being some foppish, hedonistic dandy but behind the scenes he was up to something important and serious; like some sort of underground movement for change.   Hence how amazingly fit he seems to be,  how he was perfectly able to survive out in the wilds of the Hinterlands on his own when he first came south and how he managed to avoid detection by the Venatori. 

[shinynotshiny]

Oh, I definitely think Dorian presents himself a certain way (foppish, hedonistic, dandy) in part to hide his true nature, but I also think his self-image is a product of his experiences. There's a banter with Cassandra where she says he's not that handsome and that anyone who talks so much about being handsome must be insecure about their looks. Dorian responds in his usual way, with confidence. I don't think he's insecure about his looks. Instead, I think he might have mixed feelings about the effect his appearance has on people. All he's ever had are sexual relationships, and he even expects the Inquisitor to turn him away after sex. The banter where Cole says "What if he doesn't want me after?" makes me sad for that reason. Then there's his sarcasm, which I think is part ego and part self-preservation.

 

I do wonder what he got up to during the 2-3 year time gap. I like to imagine he could have taken part in a movement, but there isn't much to go on at the moment.

[Qun00]

Say, is Last Resort of Good Men still available after What Pride Had Wrought?

[Gervaise]

I don't know if it is available after What Pride Had Wrought, but it certainly is possible just before it.   My second run with my girl mage they had still not fixed the bug stopping it from triggering if your approval was too high when I got to Skyhold, so I went the entire sequence of main plot with effectively her not knowing he was gay.   Then the patch came out just before going to the Arbor Wilds and when I loaded up Dorian told me about Felix and then Mother Giselle was there with her letter.

 

The Last Resort of Good Men is just a general Dorian quest though and not specific to the romance.    So it probably is available after the Arbor Wilds but you won't get the Birth right quest after it to begin the romance proper.   In any case you would miss out on so much if you do the romance that late in the game.

[nightscrawl]

I think it's interesting that Dorian appears more physically fit than mages we've seen so far in the series.

Well... you do realize that he, the Inquisitor (regardless of class), and Cullen all have the same body, right? It's always been this way in Dragon Age.

 

In all of the games all of the people (with a few specific exceptions -- Varric, Isabela, Bull, male mage Hawke in Champion armor) have the same body. Unclothed in DAO, a male human Warden (mage or non-mage) looks like Alistair, Loghain, Jowan, Anders, Irving, and so on. A male Hawke (mage or non-mage) has the same body as Keran.

 

Because of the way that the Dragon Age developers have specifically chosen to use bodies in their games I really don't think that anyone's body, with a few exceptions, should be taken at "face" value in terms of how the person actually looks, or should be something to go on for specific details like you are suggesting.

 

Do I think Dorian is physically fit? Yes I do. It's by design; he's got the genes for it.

Do I think he would have the same physique as my warrior? No, I don't.

Do I think he's completely hairless? No, I don't. I don't doubt his grooming habits, but maintaining that would take an inordinate amount of time that he doesn't appear to actually have. And I don't think he is so vain as to have that take priority over something else.

 

It's kind of difficult to determine the level of care he puts into himself though.

 

There is this banter with Solas...

Solas: Your magical skill is impressive, Dorian.

Dorian: You're not the first to say so.

Solas: Would you not conserve magical energy with a less... flashy... style, however?

Dorian: Yes, and I'd live longer if I only ate rice and boiled vegetables, but that's just as unlikely.

 

There is also his alcohol consumption. While I don't refer to him as an alcoholic, he does like his drink, and that has a deleterious affect on the body. But he also gets a lot of exercise following the Inquisitor around (as do they all), and I would imagine that one has to be relatively fit to use combat magic effectively, which would be important to him.

[shinynotshiny]

Well... you do realize that he, the Inquisitor, and Cullen all have the same body, right? It's always been this way in Dragon Age.

 

In all of the games all of the people (with a few specific exceptions -- Isabela, Bull, male mage Hawke in Champion armor) have the same body. Unclothed in DAO, a male human Warden (mage or non-mage) looks like Alistair, Loghain, Jowan, Anders, Irving, and so on. A male Hawke (mage or non-mage) has the same body as Keran.

 

Because of the way that the Dragon Age developers have specifically chosen to use bodies in their games I really don't think that anyone's body, with a few exceptions, should be taken at "face" value in terms of how the person actually looks, or should be something to go on for specific details like you are suggesting.

 

Do I think Dorian is physically fit? Yes I do. It's by design; he's got the genes for it.

Do I think he's completely hairless? No, I don't. I don't doubt his grooming habits, but maintaining that would take an inordinate amount of time that he doesn't appear to actually have. And I don't think he is so vain as to have that take priority over something else.

 

It's kind of difficult to determine the level of care he puts into himself though.

 

There is this banter with Solas...

Solas: Your magical skill is impressive, Dorian.

Dorian: You're not the first to say so.

Solas: Would you not conserve magical energy with a less... flashy... style, however?

Dorian: Yes, and I'd live longer if I only ate rice and boiled vegetables, but that's just as unlikely.

 

There is also his alcohol consumption. While I don't refer to him as an alcoholic, he does like his drink, and that has a deleterious affect on the body. But he also gets a lot of exercise following the Inquisitor around (as do they all), and I would imagine that one has to be relatively fit to use combat magic effectively, which would be important to him.

 

Yes, I realize that

 

But compare him to the circle mages in DAO or the way Anders was presented in DA2 and you'll notice a difference. At least I see a difference.

 

To add, I'm not so vapid as to believe Dorian has weekly waxing sessions to keep himself hairless because oh look his character model is hairless, but I do believe he pays more attention to his appearance in comparison to the other characters, with perhaps Vivienne as an exception. You have Solas and Cole both commenting on Dorian's style of dress and way of presenting himself.

[Qun00]

I don't know if it is available after What Pride Had Wrought, but it certainly is possible just before it.   My second run with my girl mage they had still not fixed the bug stopping it from triggering if your approval was too high when I got to Skyhold, so I went the entire sequence of main plot with effectively her not knowing he was gay.   Then the patch came out just before going to the Arbor Wilds and when I loaded up Dorian told me about Felix and then Mother Giselle was there with her letter.
 
The Last Resort of Good Men is just a general Dorian quest though and not specific to the romance.    So it probably is available after the Arbor Wilds but you won't get the Birth right quest after it to begin the romance proper.   In any case you would miss out on so much if you do the romance that late in the game.

No, not romance.

Just the start of a friendship between Lavellan and Dorian after finding out that Tevinter had nothing to do with the fall of Arlathan.

[nightscrawl]

^ I think that What Pride Had Wrought is the gateway to the final section of the game. You might not be able to acquire any personal quests after that point.

 

I will say that I really like the idea of your attempting to use it in that way in terms of roleplay.

 

But also consider that the first conversation after the Temple of Mythal has him considering going back to Tevinter. Your relationship (romance, friend, non-friend) can influence that decision, and The Last Resort of Good men is part of the buildup of the relationship.

[Qun00]

Well, I've already acquired the quest.

I figure it won't disappear from my journal unless I do the final mission.

[nightscrawl]

Hm... well I would say that you should be fine since you already have it, but I can't say with 100% certainty.

 

If you wait until after Mythal here is what I think will happen...

* You come back to Skyhold after the final cutscene.

* Immediately take Dorian to Redcliffe and do the whole tavern thing and get thrown back to Skyhold where you finish the conversation.

* The next cutscene that normally triggers (on clicking Dorian again) after this is a conversation with Mother Giselle wherein you can solidify your friendship. BUT, because you will have the post-Mythal conversation waiting in queue, I don't know which cutscene will trigger first. The order that these occur would affect the roleplay that you're going for I assume.

[Gervaise]

On the fitness front there is also the fact that Dorian has to sprint ahead of Cory and Co to come and warn you if you take Champions of the Just.  He arrives breathless and near state of collapse but he does get to you first.   Of course Tevinter could have that whole Greek/Roman gymnasium thing going since they do admire a perfect body.   He carries himself so well too.   It always bugs me how the elf models always seem to slouch and have round shoulders, which is particularly odd if you are an archer, so you should naturally have developed a better posture.   I don't think it is just confined to elves but it is just more noticeable on them.   Dorian has a natural grace and pride about the way he walks; may be that comes from being an Altus - I can just imagine his mother telling him "shoulders back, dear, don't slouch" when he was a boy.   He does stand out from other people with his posture and way of walking whether its something that just comes to him naturally or whether he has trained himself to walk that way.  I'm talking cut scenes here rather than generally moving around.   It's like a cross between and panther and a stallion. 

[tklivory]

Another piccie to share:



--from this post on Cynellis' Tumblr

[Dr. Doctor]

On the fitness front there is also the fact that Dorian has to sprint ahead of Cory and Co to come and warn you if you take Champions of the Just.  He arrives breathless and near state of collapse but he does get to you first.   Of course Tevinter could have that whole Greek/Roman gymnasium thing going since they do admire a perfect body.   He carries himself so well too.   It always bugs me how the elf models always seem to slouch and have round shoulders, which is particularly odd if you are an archer, so you should naturally have developed a better posture.   I don't think it is just confined to elves but it is just more noticeable on them.   Dorian has a natural grace and pride about the way he walks; may be that comes from being an Altus - I can just imagine his mother telling him "shoulders back, dear, don't slouch" when he was a boy.   He does stand out from other people with his posture and way of walking whether its something that just comes to him naturally or whether he has trained himself to walk that way.  I'm talking cut scenes here rather than generally moving around.   It's like a cross between and panther and a stallion.

Dorian: Cole, is there a particular reason why you're stacking books on my head?

Cole: No.

Dorian: Really? You're not trying to recreate the trauma of my mother trying to teach a four-year-old me not to slouch?

Cole: Did you want to do that?

Dorian: Best not, dipping into the brandy before breakfast is generally frowned upon in this establishment.

[nightscrawl]

He does stand out from other people with his posture and way of walking whether its something that just comes to him naturally or whether he has trained himself to walk that way.  I'm talking cut scenes here rather than generally moving around. It's like a cross between and panther and a stallion.

Despite my previous post, I certainly do agree with this. There are two words I particularly like to use when describing Dorian's movement: saunter and strut (see: first Skyhold dialog cutscene). He does both marvelously.

[Gervaise]

I'm doing Champions of the Just again with Dorian romance.   I've done both paths with the romance but I'm going with Champions not simply because you get a better story path after but you build the romance from a different sort of beginning when you see Dorian in a totally different light to the HW path.

 

In Hushed Whispers Dorian is riding high as the hero in his own story, as he would say.   Yes, he has to face seeing what his old mentor has been reduced to and what happened to Felix, but most of the time he is still the cocky, confident Dorian, able to crack jokes and look dashing.    Finally he saves the day as only he can and you return to the present with Dorian able to pronounce to Alexius "Is that the best you can do?".   You can trust Dorian because he did save the day but at this point you have no reason to believe he isn't just another arrogant noble, even if he does have good intentions.

 

With Champions Dorian has had to face the fact that in Redcliffe he didn't convince you with his charm and repartee.   You likely have dismissed him along with the other Tevinter as "the enemy" and you may even be Chantry fanatics who think all mages should be locked up.    He has failed to save his mentor and friend, who he has now lost contact with.    Yet instead of abandoning the Inquisition as a lost cause or wallowing in self pity, on realising the Venatori are on the march, he picks himself up and "risks his life" to get to you first.     It is noticeable that when he arrives he has neither mage robes, nor his original staff but some rough looking stick.    I don't think this is an oversight but deliberate since everyone else is in full battle gear.   Dorian has literally abandoned everything in his haste to get to you.   Gone is the carefully tailored image, air of sophistication and the witty repartee; this is Dorian without the mask.   

 

Then after delivering his message, instead of disappearing back into the wilds (which would likely be much safer at this point as the focus of the Venatori is on Haven), he stays to help, not with flashy displays of magic but getting dirty and bloodied helping the wounded and dying.    I find the best part is when we are discussing what to do now the dragon has appeared.   Cullen is suggesting dropping the mountain side on the enemy as a sort of vengeful suicide in the view of the fact that escape seems impossible and Dorian's response is telling.     He didn't come there in the hope of getting killed, certainly not by the people he came to help.   "Dying is a last resort......You sound like a blood mage."    Sort of ironic that since he is addressing Cullen at the time.    That is the moment (looking back in the safety of Skyhold) that I realise I might have made a mistake in not trusting him back at Redcliffe.   That is the moment I realise there is more to Dorian than the flamboyant, flashy mage who confronted me there.      When faced with defeat you neither fall on your own sword nor take others down with you, friend and foe, in the desperate hope you might achieve some sort of victory, you "never say die" and keep trying whilst never loosing your integrity.   Dorian is different from the Tevinter mage of my prejudices.

 

I had almost forgotten these exchanges since it was so long ago I did Champions and have been doing Hushed Whispers on subsequent runs.   I think it stayed in my subconscious though.   I love the fun, witty Dorian but I know he has another side, not simply from the exchanges with his father or in the bedroom but there, back at Haven.   

[nightscrawl]

^ I agree that the Champions path is an interesting side of him. Another reason to go that route, Dorian aside, is that this is the only time in the entire game that we the player, and the Inquisitor, get to have a personal interaction with Cole and see him do his thing in relation to ourselves. You do have the option later of asking Cole how you "feel" to him, but that is minor in comparison with the interaction in Champions, and also with the type of interaction that we see him have with the companions -- I realize this is out of roleplay courtesy on the part of the devs.

 

That said, especially after learning more about Alexius, Felix, and their meaning in Dorian's life through WoT Vol. 2, I think that not taking the Whispers path is really missing out on a significant chunk of Dorian characterization, more than I think the opposite path is missing out on Cole. Dorian has a more personal investment in Whispers than does Cole in Champions. (I also have personal roleplay reasons for going with Whispers as relates to the romance which I'm not going to get into here, but suffice to say that my Inquisitor would have a bit of a different flavor if I went with Champions over Whispers.)

 

I am curious as to which Champions path you (or anyone in the thread) prefer: to go to Redcliffe and meet Dorian and then pick the templars, or to never go to Redcliffe at all and have Dorian be a complete surprise.

[shinynotshiny]

I prefer the surprise.

 

I came across a post on tumblr about Dorian in the Champion path, maybe someone here has also read it (or you guys have already discussed it):
 

People don’t talk about this much that I’ve seen (though I’ll admit I tend to stay out of the character tags because I just end up annoyed!) and it’s probably because of how few people ever seem to do a Templar-side playthrough.

 

But when Dorian shows up at Haven just ahead of Calpernia’s army, he basically half-carries the wounded Chancellor Roderick through the secret route and to the camp, and safety. A man he’s just met, a stranger – and Dorian is the one helping him as the Chancellor leads all of Haven’s occupants to safety.

 

And then, once they reach safety and set up the camp? Dorian sits beside Roderick as he dies. No one else, no one who actually knew the Chancellor, is shown with him. Now, in part, that could be because the man was unlikeable – but in the end, he saved them all. No one else could have taken a moment to hold a dying man’s hand? But no. It’s just Dorian, watching over a stranger. Just Dorian, making sure he’s not alone at the end.

 

Dorian is a gentle, caring man, with sadly too much experience sitting at sickbeds and watching people die slowly. It’s a shame that so much of fandom focus tends to be on his brash facade and flirtatious arrogance when this kindness is what lurks underneath.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Forsythia77]

I pick the mages because I'm pro mage freedom, not because you get Dorian earlier.  I didn't even pick the templars when I specialized as a templar (though I did do their quest once just to have done it).  I'm just not that into them.  LOL.  Also, Cole doesn't interest me enough for me to want to see how or why he shows up.

[NoRmAnDy-SR2]

I can't bring myself to skip the whole quest with Dorian, so I'm always siding with the mages

[Joe25]

Another piccie to share:

Spoiler

--from this post on Cynellis' Tumblr

Dorian at Carnaval. I can only picture how Dorian, Vivienne and Anders would try to out do each other.