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Dorian discussion and appreciation thread


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#20176
Gervaise

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You don't have to pick Hushed Whispers because you support mage freedom or think that picking Champions means you don't.   It might be harder to get a Divine, Leliana, who supports mage freedom if you go with the latter but it must be possible because there is an epilogue slide for it.   The mage rebellion joined up with a Tevinter cult who were advocating mage supremacy.   They were doing absolutely the worst thing you could do if you wanted to convince ordinary people that free mages could be trustworthy.   You don't get the codex on a King Alistair play through but with Anora as Queen it states that she persuaded her people to agree into giving the mages sanctuary, they were given the most defensible castle in Ferelden as their refuge and then they handed it over to a foreign power.    Anora's position was considerably weakened as a result and her citizens are unlikely to be as trusting of mages as a group again.

 

I like to think that if Dorian had been in Fiona's position he would have turned down that sort of offer from the Venatori.    He was not asking your help to support the mage rebellion in Hushed Whispers but to stop the Venatori.     He takes it on the chin when you don't help him but probably understands the reasons why you don't, particularly once he is at Skyhold and talks with you.   After all, if you conscript the Templars you have actually disbanded the order.   All the pro-Circle people are really unhappy about that.

 

I agree with the analysis of Dorian in relation to Roderick and what it shows about him.   It is noticeable that on the Hushed Whispers path that role is taken by Cole.   Then when we recruit Dorian and Cole, we are criticised and warned not the trust them.   Apparently the members of our team are clearly less compassionate and caring than either Dorian or Cole, since they ignored Roderick as he is dying and left him in the care of someone they patently distrust, while they argue among themselves.   

 

It is probably interesting to leave out Redcliffe but I must admit you would have to be really hardline Chantry to do that, since when Fiona invites you there, it is before she has been recruited by Alexius, and so it is only reasonable and fair minded to go and hear what the mages have to say.       Once you discover that the Venatori have taken over the mage rebellion, it makes sense to go and try and get the Templars on side not simply to close the breach but to have some magic supressing specialists on hand when you confront them.      The Hushed Whispers plot works out because it is written that way but looked at from a logical point of view, it is madness to send the only person capable of closing the breach into an almost certain trap by people capable of controlling other people's minds with blood magic.    Leliana's forces overcoming the Venatori was altogether too easy; if it was that simple and the rebel mages were really that unhappy with Fiona's leadership, why didn't they just do the same?   There are meant to be hundreds of them.   The fact is their ranks were infiltrated by Venatori long before Alexius put in an appearance.

 

Another reason I prefer Champions is that I find the time travel idea absurd and also there is far less red lyrium growing up around Thedas.    With Hushed Whispers you find it on the surface in places other than Emprise du Lion, with Champions it is confined to there and a few caves.  


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#20177
shinynotshiny

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I've been pro-mage since the DAO days. I was even sympathetic towards Anders in DA2, insanity and all.

 

But DAI made it hard for me. I agree with Gervaise about trying to make logical choices. I also agree that time travel is one of those themes that can either make or break a story. It has to be good time travel, and I felt In Hushed Whispers didn't handle it well. Even so, I went pro-mage in my first playthrough because that's what I always do, but I had an easier time sympathizing with the templars after a templar playthrough. I never thought it possible.

 

I think the analysis about Dorian goes hand-in-hand with Bull's comments about Dorian if they're in a relationship:

 

Dorian’s a sweet guy. He’s gentle, and he cares under all that bluster. I’m hoping we’re good for each other.

 

I would have liked to see more of that gentle side.


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#20178
Gervaise

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I wish we could have seen more of Dorian's gentler side but that is why I like the Champions run.   You see more of Dorian's character even if you get slightly less screen time with him.

 

Bull is a pretty good judge of people; I was glad I got him out of the Qun.   I'd still like to know if they hook up if Bull is still part of it.    Some how I think it would all end in tears if he was.   Bull would eventually be recalled by the Ben-Hassrath and leave Dorian or Dorian would return to Tevinter and get lynched, since I feel that literally getting into bed with the enemy would not be viewed too favourably by the folks back home.  



#20179
shinynotshiny

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I wish we could have seen more of Dorian's gentler side but that is why I like the Champions run.   You see more of Dorian's character even if you get slightly less screen time with him.

 

Bull is a pretty good judge of people; I was glad I got him out of the Qun.   I'd still like to know if they hook up if Bull is still part of it.    Some how I think it would all end in tears if he was.   Bull would eventually be recalled by the Ben-Hassrath and leave Dorian or Dorian would return to Tevinter and get lynched, since I feel that literally getting into bed with the enemy would not be viewed too favourably by the folks back home.  

 

I agree with all of your points.

 

Also, I chose the Qun path with Bull in my second playthrough to see what would happen. He and Dorian still get together, but Bull says he intends to go back to the Qun (he says this if you talk to him after the final battle). I don't like that path for them, or for Bull.



#20180
Gervaise

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That pretty much resolves me never to take the Qun path even for interests sake.  I fear he would be in for a bit of re-education when he got back.

 

I'm really enjoying doing a complete run again on Champions as I am noticing more things about Dorian and I am falling in love with Dorian all over again, plus first run out after reaching Skyhold I took Dorian and Cole and THEY STARTED TALKING.    Looks like my plan is going to work and I'm finally going to get all that extra Dorian experience with Cole that I have been missing.

 

By the way, the lack of mage robes and proper staff was deliberate.   When I got to Skyhold I found he had nothing, so the first thing I did was go to the Undercroft and craft him some decent mage robes and then made Vivienne give up her Dreamweaver staff for him to use.


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#20181
shinynotshiny

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That pretty much resolves me never to take the Qun path even for interests sake.  I fear he would be in for a bit of re-education when he got back.

 

I'm really enjoying doing a complete run again on Champions as I am noticing more things about Dorian and I am falling in love with Dorian all over again, plus first run out after reaching Skyhold I took Dorian and Cole and THEY STARTED TALKING.    Looks like my plan is going to work and I'm finally going to get all that extra Dorian experience with Cole that I have been missing.

 

Yeah, I'm planning another playthrough and I'm going to make it as perfect as possible for the characters I like :P

 

I'm glad they started talking! I really liked their banter because it says a lot about Dorian (not just his past, but also the way he chooses to handle his insecurities).



#20182
nightscrawl

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... with sadly too much experience sitting at sickbeds and watching people die slowly.


Erm... I'm afraid I don't understand this line.


Also, those comments from Bull are amazing.



#20183
shinynotshiny

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Erm... I'm afraid I don't understand this line.


Also, those comments from Bull are amazing.

 

Yeah, that part is a head-scratcher. Maybe they meant Felix even though it doesn't fit.

 

I know some people don't like Dorian with Bull, but that comment was cute.



#20184
Arlee

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I've just come across a dialogue that I did choose my first ever run through with my girl mage but had forgotten about.  When saying that no one will thank him for his efforts and no one will thank the Inquisitor either", you can respond "We don't know that will happen.   Nobody does".    In response Dorian says:
"An optimist!  Such a rare breed.   I've stumbled upon a unicorn!"
 
That dialogue about trying to turn him into a unicorn actually makes sense now.   I'm trying to make him into an optimist about relationships when he has no experience of them and so isn't able to see it the same way as me.   
 
Thinking about it, I'm definitely a unicorn.

 
Hehe, yea I got that line on my first PT and it always made me laugh :)
 

I am curious as to which Champions path you (or anyone in the thread) prefer: to go to Redcliffe and meet Dorian and then pick the templars, or to never go to Redcliffe at all and have Dorian be a complete surprise.

 
I always go and meet Dorian at Redcliffe first because it makes sense to go and check things out before choosing between mages and templars; and it also makes more sense for later when Dorian shows up on your doorstep :)
 

You don't have to pick Hushed Whispers because you support mage freedom or think that picking Champions means you don't.   It might be harder to get a Divine, Leliana, who supports mage freedom if you go with the latter but it must be possible because there is an epilogue slide for it.


In one of my Templar PTs I did get Lileanna as Divine so it is definitely doable. They basically become helpers and protectors of the people instead of jailers, which feels like the best thing to me.

 

In general I prefer the Champions path because the way everything unfolds makes a lot more sense to me, I love Barris, and Calpernia is by far more interesting than Sampson.


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#20185
nightscrawl

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I know some people don't like Dorian with Bull, but that comment was cute.


Disregarding any argument on the merits of it, I did think that DG's comments regarding it were interesting. And I kinda like that Dorian reacts differently to the Bull relationship than the Inquisitor relationship. In a way it reminds me of the Fenris/Isabela dynamic.



#20186
trevelyan_shep

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I've only done the templar route once only so I can see how it goes. I really do not like the templar order which makes playing their side so much harder to do. I do plan on doing it with my newest guy, but I don't think it's as good as the mage side.

#20187
shinynotshiny

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Disregarding any argument on the merits of it, I did think that DG's comments regarding it were interesting. And I kinda like that Dorian reacts differently to the Bull relationship than the Inquisitor relationship. In a way it reminds me of the Fenris/Isabela dynamic.

 

I read the first line and lol

 

I think the comment was cute, but their relationship does have a different dynamic. Dorian is more reserved and I'm sure he went into it fully expecting it to be another drunken experience. What I took from Fenris and Isabela is that Fenris is more assertive with Isabela, whereas he's more vulnerable with Hawke. Sexual/possibly romantic vs romantic.



#20188
Gervaise

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I had an interesting thing happen tonight with Cassandra and her book.  On previous runs I had either flirted with Cassandra but romanced Dorian or vice versa and it is Dorian who walks past and comments about her choice in books.    This time I have only flirted with Cullen once and then Dorian and this time it was Cole who walked up and said that Cassandra had been reading it to him, which was cute as Cole is clearly beginning to win her over.    However, it would appear that Dorian was stalking me previously; I suggested it jokingly before but it would seem that Dorian was taking an interest in what I was getting up to when I wasn't talking to him.   Or is it simply that I'm not high enough in approval yet for him to be bothered?   (Not yet received Felix letter)



#20189
nightscrawl

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I've gotten both Cole and Dorian to comment. Unfortunately, although I've only had two characters (one fem w/Cullen romance, and one guy w/Dorian romance) I've done the quest several times (multiple PTs with the same char) and have no idea what triggers the specific person to walk by.

 

 

As an aside, I love the Dorian/Cass banter that has him saying "Darling Cassandra..." in an exasperated tone.


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#20190
Arlee

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I had an interesting thing happen tonight with Cassandra and her book.  On previous runs I had either flirted with Cassandra but romanced Dorian or vice versa and it is Dorian who walks past and comments about her choice in books.    This time I have only flirted with Cullen once and then Dorian and this time it was Cole who walked up and said that Cassandra had been reading it to him, which was cute as Cole is clearly beginning to win her over.    However, it would appear that Dorian was stalking me previously; I suggested it jokingly before but it would seem that Dorian was taking an interest in what I was getting up to when I wasn't talking to him.   Or is it simply that I'm not high enough in approval yet for him to be bothered?   (Not yet received Felix letter)

 

I can't figure out what causes one to walk by vs the other one. Every time I think I've got it narrowed down something will happen on my next PT which disproves it. It's quite vexing really :(



#20191
Forsythia77

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What are the exact conditions one must meet to get Dorian and Bull to date?  This has never happened in any of my female PTs (excluding the one where my elf was in a relationship with Bull).  So that is five games??  The only two ppl who have had a romance have been Josie and Blackwall, and I'm not sure what I did in those two games to get that to happen either.  Is it in the Wiki?  Obvi it's not going to happen this game since Holden (AKA Ginger Bro) is in a relationship with Dorian.  Does anyone else date other than those two sets of people?



#20192
shinynotshiny

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What are the exact conditions one must meet to get Dorian and Bull to date?  This has never happened in any of my female PTs (excluding the one where my elf was in a relationship with Bull).  So that is five games??  The only two ppl who have had a romance have been Josie and Blackwall, and I'm not sure what I did in those two games to get that to happen either.  Is it in the Wiki?  Obvi it's not going to happen this game since Holden (AKA Ginger Bro) is in a relationship with Dorian.  Does anyone else date other than those two sets of people?

 

They took forever for me. I was playing a female Lavellan and it wasn't until I got Solas' romance card (RP reasons, I don't really care for that romance) that Bull and Dorian started anything. I didn't flirt with Bull or Dorian, maybe that has some influence.



#20193
Forsythia77

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Oh jeez I generally flirt with everyone all the time in all my games.  Except for Blackwall.  I don't want to get ninjamanced.


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#20194
shinynotshiny

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Oh jeez I generally flirt with everyone all the time in all my games.  Except for Blackwall.  I don't want to get ninjamanced.

 

lol

 

I didn't want to romance anyone my first playthrough, but I figured I'd pick someone anyway so Blackwall happened. And then his quest happened.

 

Never again.


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#20195
nightscrawl

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I don't know about other conditions (like flirting vs not-flirting) but you do need to have them in party and get them to banter, otherwise it won't happen, regardless of what your status with either of them is. For example, on my female plays I never saw their relationship because I don't bring Bull around (and don't flirt with him).



#20196
shinynotshiny

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I don't know about other conditions (like flirting vs not-flirting) but you do need to have them in party and get them to banter, otherwise it won't happen, regardless of what your status with either of them is. For example, on my female plays I never saw their relationship because I don't bring Bull around (and don't flirt with him).

 

I took them everywhere with me (plus Cassandra) and they still took forever :wacko:



#20197
Yuyana

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Re: Dorian vs Cole in Cassandra's book scene.

I always assumed it was tied to mages vs Templars.

I always get Cole when I side with the mages, and Dorian when I side with the Templars, irrespective of my romance status with him. I always assumed it was to balance screen time given that Dorian gets more screen time with the mages path, and Cole more time on the Templar path. Is this not what others have observed?

I always side with the mages and I never got Cole in that scene :lol: .



#20198
tklivory

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I always side with the mages and I never got Cole in that scene :lol: .


Huh. Curious. I wonder what the trigger is, then? *makes a note to check the game resource files*

#20199
Melbella

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Re: Dorian vs Cole in Cassandra's book scene.

I always assumed it was tied to mages vs Templars.

I always get Cole when I side with the mages, and Dorian when I side with the Templars, irrespective of my romance status with him. I always assumed it was to balance screen time given that Dorian gets more screen time with the mages path, and Cole more time on the Templar path. Is this not what others have observed?

 

My current game I went mages and got Dorian. Last game I went Templars and got Cole.



#20200
Dr. Doctor

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^ I agree that the Champions path is an interesting side of him. Another reason to go that route, Dorian aside, is that this is the only time in the entire game that we the player, and the Inquisitor, get to have a personal interaction with Cole and see him do his thing in relation to ourselves. You do have the option later of asking Cole how you "feel" to him, but that is minor in comparison with the interaction in Champions, and also with the type of interaction that we see him have with the companions -- I realize this is out of roleplay courtesy on the part of the devs.
 
That said, especially after learning more about Alexius, Felix, and their meaning in Dorian's life through WoT Vol. 2, I think that not taking the Whispers path is really missing out on a significant chunk of Dorian characterization, more than I think the opposite path is missing out on Cole. Dorian has a more personal investment in Whispers than does Cole in Champions. (I also have personal roleplay reasons for going with Whispers as relates to the romance which I'm not going to get into here, but suffice to say that my Inquisitor would have a bit of a different flavor if I went with Champions over Whispers.)
 
I am curious as to which Champions path you (or anyone in the thread) prefer: to go to Redcliffe and meet Dorian and then pick the templars, or to never go to Redcliffe at all and have Dorian be a complete surprise.


I generally go with the "Meet Dorian and go grab the Templars" partially because I prefer Envy's trip into the Inquisitor's mind to Dragon Age: Days of Future Past and because Calpernia is in my opinion a better antagonist than Samson. Also I like having Dorian help Roderick.

Although I wonder what happens with the time rifts around Redcliffe?
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