22176 réponses à ce sujet

[shinynotshiny]

I'm sorry if everyone is so offended when I simply voice different reactions that someone could have and try and understand why it has been put in the game.   What was the necessity of including that line?    In a lot of ways, I agree, it is irrelevant.   Yet, given the way Cole introduces it and the fact it seems to have no bearing on anything else that you know in game about Dorian, why is it there?

 

Everyone seems angry with me for having an opinion.    The thing I keep coming back to is that even after hauling Cole around with me continuously, I still have never got all that dialogue that gives a greater insight into what is going on with Dorian.    I've never got those lines about how he is unlearning how not to hope for more.   Or how he was afraid you wouldn't want him after sex.    All I get, after thinking that we're doing fine together is a line that suggests he is still thinking about some other man.      Are you honestly saying that if this happened to you in a relationship, you wouldn't at least wonder what it meant?

 

The real gripe for me is all the inconsistencies between the game and WoT2, which together with loose ends like this, make me wonder just how much care was taken because actually it does make Dorian seem less than honest.     Yet I know that he is a warm hearted and genuine person.   That's what I love about him.    I just wonder if it is deliberate because they want you to reject him.    It seems to me that they make it far easier for you to pick the wrong dialogue choice than the "right" one to get him to stay, far easier to be mocked when you express a desire to stay together, and far easier to get a Cole dialogue that causes you to doubt his commitment than one that confirms it.     Yet apparently I am the one at fault when I point out these things. 

 

Cole brings up a lot of things, like Bull's childhood memories with his tama. The fact he brought up Relienus just means it's a memory that still causes sadness. I don't think it was irrelevant, not exactly. I think it says a lot about Dorian's history and the extent to which he conditioned himself not to hope for more. It's also a bit devastating to believe one thing your entire life and then realize it could have been different. It says something about Dorian's experience as a gay man in a culture that doesn't entirely accept him. Overall, I think that comment was more about Dorian's insecurities about relationships than any romantic feelings he may have had in the past.

[Gervaise]

Believe me, I'm not naïve.  In my own case I was always too trusting and never asked enough questions.   Never jealous or suspicious.    And on one occasion when I did, was made to feel very guilty that I had, although as it turned out I discovered after I had been ditched, that I had been spot on originally and I had been right to feel wary.

 

I've also known other people, where one person would start obsessing about a previous relationship several years down the line, initially the other person would ignore it but it kept cropping up and it did harm the relationship, which was a pity because they were both really lovely people.    I've noticed that over on Scuttlebutt it is reported that DG has confirmed the time scale is 3 years (or he thinks so).   So on that basis Quizzy and Dorian are currently about 2 years into their relationship.     

 

Anyway, I'll say no more on the matter.   I seem to be drawn to the characters with the difficult pasts that they are trying to come to terms with: Viconia, Anna, Zevran, Fenris, Jack and now Dorian.    The thing is I was okay with all the others, never had a problem with what was revealed, although I have to admit that Fenris keeping me dangling for 3 years did test my loyalty a bit but I hung in there, just as I did with Dorian the first time through and just as I always will.

[nightscrawl]

I know many of the folks in this thread don't venture elsewhere in the forums, so I thought I'd share this interesting tidbit.
 
There is a thread regarding the time period of the game being about three years. The person posted a source (screenshot), but I was able to find the actual David Gaider tweets and link directly to those. Part 1 & Part 2.

Do with the info what you will. I'd also suggest to keep any speculation to that actual thread, as there is plenty of it.

[nightscrawl]

I'm sorry if everyone is so offended when I simply voice different reactions that someone could have and try and understand why it has been put in the game.

...

Everyone seems angry with me for having an opinion. The thing I keep coming back to is that even after hauling Cole around with me continuously, I still have never got all that dialogue that gives a greater insight into what is going on with Dorian. I've never got those lines about how he is unlearning how not to hope for more. Or how he was afraid you wouldn't want him after sex. All I get, after thinking that we're doing fine together is a line that suggests he is still thinking about some other man. Are you honestly saying that if this happened to you in a relationship, you wouldn't at least wonder what it meant?

I'm not angry or offended. Part of the reason I respond in the manner I do is because you are attributing thoughts and feelings to Dorian which there are really no basis for in the actual game. All you are doing is making yourself unhappy by vastly over thinking the issue.

Also, you never really seem to address the fact that there are gamey issues involved here. Banter fire, banters don't fire, their not firing for you doesn't mean anything vis-a-vis some other players that did get all of the banters; there are only so many dialog options available; everything is pre-written; and so forth. I'm sorry, but your continuing to use the fact of not getting a particular banter as part of the reason for your feelings is ridiculous.

 

 

And regarding Cole's lines specifically:

 

All three of these lines are ones you get randomly when you click on him in The Herald's Rest in Skyhold. These are not banters. So if you want to hear these, be sure to visit Cole often in Skyhold.

* "Bright, like the fish that kill you if you eat them. Can't hate you for hiding if you burn so brilliantly."
* (If in a romance) "Glittering to gloss a hidden hurt. Unlearning not to hope for more. Stumbling steps where the wall used to be."

* (About his father) "He tried to melt a snowflake because he liked waterfalls. Swallowing bile and pride as he sees his son defend himself."

 

The only romance banter with Cole is one that I have also yet to hear myself over hundreds of play hours, which is kinda sad...

Cole: You're happier now, Dorian.

Dorian: Is that what that light, tingly feeling is? I suppose you're right.

Cole: Wishing but wondering, wounded and wistful. What if he doesn't want me after?

Dorian: But he did.

Cole: Now you're smiling! It's good.

 

What was the necessity of including that line? In a lot of ways, I agree, it is irrelevant. Yet, given the way Cole introduces it and the fact it seems to have no bearing on anything else that you know in game about Dorian, why is it there?

When I said that it was irrelevant I wasn't referring to the existence of the line, I was referring to its potential impact on your relationship. It IS relevant to Dorian. It is a part of his past, who he is, and how he reacts to things.

 

The real gripe for me is all the inconsistencies between the game and WoT2, which together with loose ends like this, make me wonder just how much care was taken because actually it does make Dorian seem less than honest.

This is where we have a fundamental disagreement and will likely never be able to be on a similar level regarding this character or the romance. I don't feel that about Dorian in the least. Not volunteering to share the gritty details of yourself, particularly if you are trying to move on from them, is not being dishonest.

That's really all I can say about the matter, so I suppose I'm done.

[Melbella]

Also posted in the "What did you do today?" thread.

I found the Ardent Blossom flower crown for the first time. And, of course, who gets to wear said prize but Marcus' magey boyfriend?

Spoiler

Dorian as Greek god? Olympian? Whatever.....he looks darn good, even though I really don't like this armor style.

[nightscrawl]

^ I do wish they would have per-character helmet settings . I'd love to have only Cole, Vivienne, perhaps my PC with the Inquisitor helm, and this flower one shown. Pretty much every other helm in the game is hideous, particularly those really nice (stats wise) ones you get as reward at the Winter Palace that are just perfect for rogues.

[Dr. Doctor]

Yes. I know people that still occasionally dwell on people they dated or liked years ago, because that person had a large effect on them, good or bad, and has colored their perception of things. They compare their current SO to their old one, desperate to not find the same warning signs of the relationship dying. Most people I know do things like this. It doesn't mean the relationship is doomed. Dorian's commitment isn't fazed. The man just looked back at his life before meeting the Inquisitor, and wondered about all the different roads life could have gone.
I just wonder if it is deliberate because they want you to reject him.
It doesn't mean that Bioware is pushing you to not get into a relationship with him. Some people have gone through things that makes dating them a more delicate process. Witness Morrigan, as opposed to romancing Alistair.
I wouldn't say that you're the one at fault, just that I disagree with you.

Cole picks up Cass' stray memories of Regalyan irregardless of romance as well. People's minds wander, depending on what they're thinking about Cole can pick up on it. Unfortunately, Cole's attempts to help Dorian is akin to trying to crack open a piñata filled with sadness.

[Nymeria Stark]

A cute fanart =) Lavellan standing on his toes, doing his best to kiss Dorian, and Dorian making him work for it. (That smug face lol).

 

 

http://askbroodyelf....quisitor-ashwin

[tklivory]

I just wanted to say that if anyone had any questions about mods in DAI, I'd be happy to try to answer them. I'm not a modder, but I use the mods heavily and am fairly conversant with their usage and know where to point people if I don't know a specific answer. Just throwing that out there.

 

/returns to the shadows of skulking

[Dr. Doctor]

Something interesting I noticed in World of Thedas Volume 2, Dorian studied thaumaturgy at the Minrathous Circle. Thaumaturgy, and its cousins Alchemy and Hermetic Magic all involve the use of complex procedures and diagrams, which would explain Dorian's zeal for drawing them.

[nightscrawl]

Something interesting I noticed in World of Thedas Volume 2, Dorian studied thaumaturgy at the Minrathous Circle. Thaumaturgy, and its cousins Alchemy and Hermetic Magic all involve the use of complex procedures and diagrams, which would explain Dorian's zeal for drawing them.

 

I saw that too! He really is the sexiest nerd ever.

[Gervaise]

For interests sake: I've just started to get the sequence of conversations with Cole about Dorian's father.    I am in Emprise du Lion, Level 21/22.    To my mind this is far too late in the sequence of events.   Also puzzled why Cole doesn't understand why Dorian is angry with his father.   Surely if he can read minds he can see this is because Dorian's father was trying to change his nature.   Cole can understand that since we've had the whole getting an amulet thing and Cole thanking me for letting him be himself.   You'd think if anyone could understand where Dorian is coming from, it would be Cole.    Oh well.

 

Also you would not believe how many clicks on Cole back at Skyhold that it took until I triggered the "Glittering to hide a hidden hurt".    No wonder I've never got it before.  

[myahele]

As far as Cole was concerned his father just wanted to "help" him.

 

Cole still needs a bit more time to figure things out. The method was wrong, but to motivation was there.

[Joe25]

So Inquisition is two to three years long. Do you think in that time Dorian has used enough cans of mustache wax to make a suit of armor?

[nightscrawl]

As far as Cole was concerned his father just wanted to "help" him.
 
Cole still needs a bit more time to figure things out. The method was wrong, but to motivation was there.

 
Yes. And to expand on this... Cole senses that Dorian loves his father. Cole also senses that Halward loves his son. This is the thought behind the "sometimes love isn't enough" line, which Dorian then has to explain.

I'm torn on whether Cole's method was wrong. On the one hand, yes, Dorian does get rather upset by the whole exchange. I've also felt that I would like to explain to Cole that sometimes all it takes is time, and that for Dorian the hurt is still too fresh to go poking at. On the other hand, the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else, and in this case you can apply that to Dorian's feelings. Because of the way Cole is, Dorian has to talk about this issue in a different way than he would with say, the Inquisitor, because another person would just innately understand these human emotional issues, whereas Cole does not.

 

Also, we know Dorian. He wouldn't have voluntarily spoken about the issue, so this was probably the best thing for him, really. Which is the whole point of Cole in the first place. Sometimes you have to break a bone so it can be reset. Because Cole picks out thoughts and feelings and throws them in your face, you're forced to address them in a way you might not otherwise have if someone -- even someone you trust and care about, like your boyfriend -- asks you about it.

 

 

As an aside, I just love that the Inquisitor gets an input during that banter series. Two of my favorite pieces of dialog by the English VA are when he says, "Cole, it's time to back off" during this exchange, and when he says, "Solas..." during the All New, Faded for Her quest.

[nightscrawl]

So Inquisition is two to three years long. Do you think in that time Dorian has used enough cans of mustache wax to make a suit of armor?

DG had to backtrack on that... so we're now back to an indeterminate amount of time. Twitter link. Forum link.

I have a liking for a year and a half, but that's just me.

[Dr. Doctor]

So Inquisition is two to three years long. Do you think in that time Dorian has used enough cans of mustache wax to make a suit of armor?

There's a lot of distance between where the Inquisition travels. For all we know, there's empty cans of mustache wax sitting around at every Inquisition camp and keep from Ferelden to the Hissing Wastes. Soldiers make small trinkets out of them to give to local children or to send home to their families...although that might just be hyperbole.

[Gervaise]

The thing about the Cole exchanges is that we never learn if it really did help.   Had knowing that Rilienus would have said "Yes", helped Dorian come to terms with it? Has talking through the "love is not enough" with Cole helped Dorian to reconcile himself to his father a bit more?   From what I've seen on the Wiki, the dialogue seems to end with Dorian's distress.    I've only got as far as Dorian saying that he doesn't think it is something for talking about on the road but he's clearly not happy with it.   However, it would seem from the Wiki that Cole won't let it go and brings it up again.    And according to the Wiki entry I've read, the Inquisitor doesn't tell Cole to back off but instead tells Dorian to go with it even though Dorian is clearly distressed by the dialogue  (I've yet to get to this part myself).    I'd actually prefer it if you tell Cole to back off.    

 

So is the Wiki entry missing something; does Dorian finally say that it has helped?  

[nightscrawl]

It is a series of four banters. The Inquisitor can chime in on the third banter set. The wiki does not have all of the options.
 
1 Tell Cole to back off.
2 Tell Dorian Cole is trying to help.
3 Tell Dorian to do it [tell Cole to stop] himself.
 
The fourth and final exchange IS on the wiki:
 

Dorian: I've been trying to imagine how to explain it to you, Cole.
Dorian: The thing is, sometimes the ones you love are also the ones who disappoint you the most.
Dorian: You think that if they love you, they should understand. They shouldn't want to hurt you.
Dorian: So you feel betrayed. You say things you can't ever take back.
Cole: Get out. You are no son of mine.
Dorian: Yes, like that.
Cole: He wishes he hadn't meant it.

This is what I was referring to when I wrote about Dorian explaining it to Cole. His tone in this is more relaxed because he has had time to think about it.

 

The final banter is interesting. It initially seems like Dorian is speaking of himself, but then Cole mentions something Halward said. I'm sure that the huge blowout Dorian had with his father was really very bad and that harsh words were said on both sides. So again, there is the dual pain of both men that Cole would be sensing.

 

I don't think the helpfulness of the exchange really needs to be stated, partly because part the purpose of these banters is character exposition. We hear the information, see how the character reacts to it, and draw our own conclusion from that.

 

That said, I can't imagine that it wouldn't have been helpful to some degree. Dorian is a man of deep feelings, but he tends to keep them inside unless provoked by some outside source. In this case it happens to be Cole, who, rather than instigating a response and allowing Dorian to build his walls higher, simply plows right through them instead. This is why Cole can be effective where someone else is not, because "it's not how a person would do it," which is exactly what is needed in most cases.

 

 

Keep in mind that these banters have nothing to do with us (the player or the Inquisitor). They're about the character -- in this case, Dorian -- working through some issues, and we just happen to be listening in on the conversation.

 

I don't typically like to do this -- I know no one cares about my Inquisitor or wants to see my poor Dorian characterization -- but I'll make an exception for my point. I can easily imagine this exchange back at camp between Dorian and my Inquisitor:

Inquisitor: About what Cole said today...

Dorian: (Sigh.)

Inquisitor: Do you want to talk about it?

Dorian: Not really.

Inquisitor: You know I'm--

Dorian: Yes, I know. I just need to... think on it for a while.

Inquisitor: Okay.

 

And that's pretty much it. Sometimes it's enough to know that you are cared for and that someone is willing to listen. The Inquisitor doesn't have to solve Dorian's problems. He just has to be there.

 

 

TL;DR: I don't have any issues with the way any of the banter stuff plays out.

[Fredward]

Dorian: I've been trying to imagine how to explain it to you, Cole.
Dorian: The thing is, sometimes the ones you love are also the ones who disappoint you the most.
Dorian: You think that if they love you, they should understand. They shouldn't want to hurt you.
Dorian: So you feel betrayed. You say things you can't ever take back.
Cole: Get out. You are no son of mine.
Dorian: Yes, like that.
Cole: He wishes he hadn't meant it.

 

 

I know Cole means well and all but yeowch.

 

[nightscrawl]

On the surface it does seem kinda bad, yeah. But when you take in the full meaning of the line it's actually a positive thing. The takeaway: Halward feels bad about it.

 

Let's say Dorian has just had the conversation with his father in the tavern and is stewing about everything that Halward said; not only in the tavern, but also things in the past such as "Get out. You are no son of mine" and trying to reconcile his father asking forgiveness with hearing something hurtful like that. Knowing that he truly feels bad about it is helpful.

[Gervaise]

Is it a case that there is a break between the 2nd and 3rd exchange?  By that I mean that other conversation can take place?    You see we went from Emprise du Lion to the Hissing Wastes.    We'd been walking around a while and then Cole asks Dorian if he is handsome.   Then the next time they talk it is the one about Dorian drawing him a diagram.   So it is like we've moved on to a different dialogue loop.     I've finished the Hissing Wastes now with no further significant dialogue and the thing is I'm running out of areas; there's only the Arbor Wilds/Temple of Mythal, where I don't think we get any dialogue not relevant to the main plot, and the last few dragons to mop up, which includes returning to the Emprise for the last one there.    I'm currently already on level 23.   During this run I've done a lot of standing around, picking herbs, etc, but it really doesn't seem to make much difference; there is no rhyme or reason why conversations occur when they do.   Often it's when we've just set up a new camp.  

 

This is what bothers me about the Cole exchanges.  If they are meant to give insight into Dorian, then they don't seem to start early enough or with enough frequency to really give a full picture.    Also after the 3rd exchange do you get to choose which response to give or is it just random?    When did you get the conversations level/area wise?    Is it really pot luck?    

 

It's odd because this has only seemed a problem on my runs with Cole and it only relates to the more personal stuff about Dorian.      We got all the dialogue with Dorian asking Cole about himself and I assume that leads into Dorian letting Cole ask him questions but there seemed a large gap between the two.     At the moment I'm hoping that I'll pick up some more dialogue when we do JoH but on previous runs we tended to end up repeating earlier banter rather than getting dialogue that hadn't triggered in the main game.

 

Also with regard to that exchange above, Cole still seems to be missing the point.   Yes, Halward did say some things he'd rather he hadn't but the real issue that Dorian is struggling to forgive is that he wanted to change him and was willing to risk using blood magic to do so.  That is what Dorian is alluding to, although he could equally feel that is how Halward must feel since it was Alexius' opinion that Dorian behaved as he did as a young man as much to punish himself as to spite Halward.    To some extent, by throwing it back on how Halward felt, could reinforce Dorian's feelings of guilt at letting his father down, even though there was nothing he could do to make things better and remain true to himself.     Which is why I mentioned how Cole should understand this.       

[shinynotshiny]

On the surface it does seem kinda bad, yeah. But when you take in the full meaning of the line it's actually a positive thing. The takeaway: Halward feels bad about it.

 

Let's say Dorian has just had the conversation with his father in the tavern and is stewing about everything that Halward said; not only in the tavern, but also things in the past such as "Get out. You are no son of mine" and trying to reconcile his father asking forgiveness with hearing something hurtful like that. Knowing that he truly feels bad about it is helpful.

 

I didn't see it that way. Maybe I'm misremembering the specifics and tone of the conversation, but it seemed like Dorian was talking about someone saying hurtful things in the heat of the moment. In general, these are things that you may or may not mean, things you tell someone to hurt them or because your true feelings broke through. Before Cole's banter, there could have been room for doubt. Maybe his father was overcome with emotion and said this to hurt him or force him into changing? But no, he really did mean what he said and that makes it even more painful. That was my take on it, anyway.

 

Gervaise, banter is random for the most part, I don't know if we should be so nitpicky.

[nightscrawl]

Also after the 3rd exchange do you get to choose which response to give or is it just random?

You get a dialog wheel prompt. Gotta be quick though.

 

I didn't see it that way. Maybe I'm misremembering the specifics and tone of the conversation, but it seemed like Dorian was talking about someone saying hurtful things in the heat of the moment. In general, these are things that you may or may not mean, things you tell someone to hurt them or because your true feelings broke through. Before Cole's banter, there could have been room for doubt. Maybe his father was overcome with emotion and said this to hurt him or force him into changing? But no, he really did mean what he said and that makes it even more painful. That was my take on it, anyway.

Well I posted the conversation above. Taking the different segments together...

 

Cole: Why are you so angry at your father? He wants to help and you know he does, but...
Dorian: I'm not certain I can explain it to you.
Cole: You love him, but you're angry. They mix together, boiling in the belly until it kneads into a knot.
Dorian: Sometimes... sometimes love isn't enough, Cole.

 

Cole: "Love isn't enough." Enough what? You didn't explain, Dorian.

 

Dorian: I've been trying to imagine how to explain it to you, Cole.
Dorian: The thing is, sometimes the ones you love are also the ones who disappoint you the most.
Dorian: You think that if they love you, they should understand. They shouldn't want to hurt you.
Dorian: So you feel betrayed. You say things you can't ever take back.
Cole: Get out. You are no son of mine.
Dorian: Yes, like that.
Cole: He wishes he hadn't meant it.

 

Since it is part of the series where Dorian is talking about himself, it seems like the initial lines do relate to Dorian, even if he is using general terms to explain it. BUT, Cole's remark is what makes it interesting and blurs the lines between Dorian and Halward.

 

As far as the meaning of Cole's line, yes of course Halward meant it at the time and that is painful. But knowing that "He wishes he hadn't meant it" is also significant. Halward doesn't feel that way anymore; his remorse is genuine. That is why Cole saying that, even if it is painful on its face, is also helpful.

 

 

[edit]

I find it amusing that different people seem to have a different take on it. Because the nature of Cole's conversations are sort of one-sided -- in that we don't have access to the person's mind in the way Cole does -- we probably shouldn't over-analyze it. Also, with this particular line, it's the final line in the banter series and we get no reaction from Dorian, so we don't know how he feels about it. We can't say whether it is further hurtful or insightful or anything else.

[shinynotshiny]

In this case, I'm looking at it from my personal point of view. I wouldn't be moved if I knew someone wished they hadn't meant it. The fact is they meant it at the time and that's enough hatred for me (p.s. I've been in similar circumstances and it doesn't make a difference for me personally).