22176 réponses à ce sujet

[tklivory]

Spoiler

For me one of the disincentives for trying out other dialog options for a really involved mission like In Hushed Whispers is that there are very few save points, so there are long cinematic conversations unbroken by anything. Since I started my current project -- I had to do the Alexius fight 8 times... yay -- it's been fun seeing some of the dialog I never take.
 
Here is one I never saw before:
Dorian: He lost Felix long ago and didn’t even notice. Oh, Alexius…
[1. This must be hard for you.] I know you cared for him.
Dorian: Once he was a man to whom I compared all others. Sad, isn’t it?
 
I quite like Dorian's response here, and I found it surprising that he was so candid. In hindsight, the comment certainly doesn't do Halward any favors... I usually pick the option that says, "This Alexius was too far gone. But the Alexius in our time might still be reasoned with," but I think I will go with this one from now on.
 
 
Also, for those of you who have never picked the alternate dialogs for Dorian recruitment, here you go...
 
Dorian: It’s my duty to stand with you. That future will not come to pass.
[1. I’m glad you’re staying.] There’s no one I’d rather be stranded in time with, future or present.
Dorian: Excellent choice! But let’s not get “stranded” again anytime soon, yes?
[3. We’ll keep an eye on you.] Stay if you must, but you’ll be watched.
Dorian: Watch away. I have nothing to hide, and evidently plenty to prove.
[6. I don’t want you here.] I never asked for your help.
Dorian: No, you didn’t. Yet it’s my homeland that’s involved, isn’t it?
Herald: That’s exactly why I don’t want you here.
Dorian: I suppose I could argue, but if you won’t support me, I doubt the others will. Have it your way. I’ll do what I can from afar.

 
I happen to really like it when Dorian says, "Have it your way." He uses that line several times throughout the game, and in the romance. He took the rejection better than I thought he would, but it did seem like he wasn't surprised, and also that he was annoyed. I mean, geez he just did all that stuff with you in the future, risked his life as well, basically saved your ass, and is treated like crap for it. Dang...
 
Does anyone know if anything comes from his "I'll do what I can from afar" remark? Since we've recruited the mages we'll be getting Cole during In Your Heart Shall Burn, so I was curious to know whether Dorian (or mention of him) pops up anywhere else.

Regarding your 'Have it your way' line: the thing to remember about Dorian is that he is always expecting to be sent away or rejected. Even if you start a romance with him. Should you choose to end the romance, his response is essentially, "All right. I was expecting it." It's completely heartbreaking, and says far too much about what he's had to deal with in his life.

But that's how I interpret the 'Have it your way'. He's used to people not considering him in their decisions. And it shows.

[Gervaise]

Dorian expecting to be rejected probably works in your favour if you do Champions of the Just after going to Redcliffe.   I mean it must have been a substantial kick in the teeth when you head off to get the help of the Templars rather than accept his offer but nevertheless he still does what he can to help "from afar" which ends with him rushing to warn you of the approaching army.    I feel the measure of a person is not how they act when things are going well but how they respond to adversity and disappointment and Dorian comes shining through.  It makes you realise that he is not doing this for his own glory but as he says to his father, simply because it is the right thing to do.  

 

I must admit, though, I find it hard to imagine how anyone could reject Dorian after doing Hushed Whispers.  You may not have asked for his help but without him around it seems pretty evident you would either have been wiped from time altogether (which is what  Alexius was trying to do) or stuck somewhere else in time, with no way of getting back.    Telling him to take a hike after getting you back safely seems a tad shortsighted even if you don't feel particularly grateful; what if some other Tevinter magic is employed that you don't know how to deal with?  

[Dr. Doctor]

Please, refrain from nosebleeding everywhere like I did.

Spoils of the Avvar

Spoiler

Just a screenie from BioFan's review:

Spoils of the Qunari (low quality since it's XB only atm):

Spoiler

He didn't lie, he does look good in rope

The Qunari armor makes the "Mountains, cold, let's bring Dorian!" line slightly funnier.

What makes it funnier is if you make a set that has crazy high cold resistance.

[London]

Nice little article on Dorian posted a couple hours atomic IGN:

http://www.ign.com/a...mpaign=Blogroll

[GGGenesis]

"Some suggest that gay male characters must eschew all characteristics that could be described as ‘too overt’: they cannot be effeminate, cannot be stylish, and certainly cannot be sexual without someone accusing them of being a harmful stereotype...Yet I am some of these things, and I know friends who are all of these things. Are they not the ‘right’ type of gay? Are gay male characters required to be completely straight-acting and straight-looking in order to be presentable for public consumption? Must they also avoid any ‘negative’ characteristic which could be construed as a trope or some kind of commentary on gay people at large?”

 

^^^^THIS! Oh boy. David Gaider narrating my life again. 

[Norina]

Nice little article on Dorian posted a couple hours atomic IGN:

http://www.ign.com/a...mpaign=Blogroll

 

Oh god.. Reading through the comments makes me want to punch my monitor. That's why I try to avoid comment sections whenever possible.

[GGGenesis]

Oh god.. Reading through the comments makes me want to punch my monitor. That's why I try to avoid comment sections whenever possible.

i initially read that as "Reading through the comments makes me want to punch my mother." I was sitting here like 'Your poor mother..."
But well, Polygon have been weird lately. They have a very clear 'political agenda' and it attracts all the wrong people. I'm fairly certain these jerks go on Polygon with the intent to disagree with them.

[tklivory]

I've just learned never to read comments on even remotely controversial subjects anymore on the internet. My blood pressure thanks me.

In the meantime have a semi-NSFW art piece.

Spoiler

[source]

[nightscrawl]

"Some suggest that gay male characters must eschew all characteristics that could be described as ‘too overt’: they cannot be effeminate, cannot be stylish, and certainly cannot be sexual without someone accusing them of being a harmful stereotype...Yet I am some of these things, and I know friends who are all of these things. Are they not the ‘right’ type of gay? Are gay male characters required to be completely straight-acting and straight-looking in order to be presentable for public consumption? Must they also avoid any ‘negative’ characteristic which could be construed as a trope or some kind of commentary on gay people at large?"

^^^^THIS! Oh boy. David Gaider narrating my life again.

While first impressions can be significant, I think it's just important to take the person as a whole, with all of their unique attributes, even if some of those may -- or may not -- be stereotypical. Dorian is a great guy, and focusing on one aspect of him, whether that be his vanity or his sexuality, does the character a disservice and honestly says more about the individual than it does about Dorian.

Unfortunately the problem in the entertainment industry comes from homosexual characters, particularly men, being portrayed in a stereotypical manner, often without any other depth, who are used as emotional support for the main (straight) character rather than having their own agency. So while David is correct in that it's not bad to have some gay characters with stereotypical features, I think that the key is to have those characters be well-rounded, while including those features, which is something that he certainly pulls off with Dorian, but the entertainment industry struggles to pull off as a whole.


Two interesting quotes from the piece...

 

Though initially jarring and even irritating, over the course of the game it becomes clear to those who put the effort in that his cocky swagger masks a deeply damaged individual.

I'm not saying this as a Dorian fan. I genuinely don't get this perception. If you take the In Hushed Whispers path -- which I've gone through numerous times -- you spend a significant amount of time with him, including solo time without any other followers, more than any other recruit-optional companion. You see, vaguely, his attitude toward Tevinter, his semi-humorous responses to things, how he deals with problems, and how he reacts emotionally to the betrayal from his mentor.

All of this is before any of the stuff I might consider "irritating": his complaints about the environment, his arrogance, his stubbornness. I would seriously argue that if you are put off by the character during that time that you are just looking for something to dislike. Then again, I live with someone who would be happy to stop watching a new show after the first five minutes if she finds the characters annoying, so...

 

Gaider explains [that] Dorian’s sexuality evolved naturally as the character of a genuinely good mage took shape, and after that it was about rounding out the other facets of his character.

Don't have anything to add here. I think it's a great tidbit on Dorian's development.

[nightscrawl]

Regarding your 'Have it your way' line: the thing to remember about Dorian is that he is always expecting to be sent away or rejected. Even if you start a romance with him. Should you choose to end the romance, his response is essentially, "All right. I was expecting it." It's completely heartbreaking, and says far too much about what he's had to deal with in his life.

But that's how I interpret the 'Have it your way'. He's used to people not considering him in their decisions. And it shows.

Thank you, I hadn't thought of it that way before. He does use it numerous times in various scenes and I've been trying to determine what it is he really wants when he says it.

 

One place he says it is if you take the "let's take it slow" path in the romance. True, he is acquiescing to the Inquisitor's wish, but he also does seem really happy about it. His hope-defying expectation of a physical encounter, and only that, was completely obliterated by the complete opposite of a rejection.

 

Also, one of my favorite scenes is when you tell him you want to be closer if you take the Dorian-initiate kiss path:
Inquisitor: I'd like to talk to you about something.
Dorian: How ominous. Has my father finally come up with a decent offer to buy me from you?
Inquisitor: No, it's nothing like that...
Dorian: I wouldn't blame you. My father's a very wealthy man.

Inquisitor: I meant I wanted to talk about us.

Dorian: Oh-ho! I see. What's the latest news on the "us" front, then?

Inquisitor: I was hoping to get to know you better.

Dorian: So... you and I? People will talk.

Inquisitor: Let them.

Dorian: All right, we'll see how this goes. Don't say I didn't warn you.

 

Then after that if you ask for a kiss (before cementing the romance in the quarters scene) he will say:

Inquisitor: I was hoping to steal a moment alone with you.

Dorian: (Laughs.) “I need to talk to you,” he says. Have it your way… But let’s go where a hundred onlookers won’t think I’m stealing the Inquisitor’s soul.

 

 

(I love his laugh in that scene SO MUCH.) It's so fun to play with both Dorian and the Inquisitor's mentality at this point. Dorian doesn't know what the Inquisitor wants from him, and expects only a physical encounter. But I do like to play it that, because Dorian is -- understandably -- so guarded, my Inquisitor has difficulty in determining what Dorian wants as well. It's a fun dance. And then, when Dorian has to explain everything, all the pieces fall together and he finally gets it.

 

Eee I just go all fangirly thinking about it. I adore this character, and the romance, so much.

 

I've just learned never to read comments on even remotely controversial subjects anymore on the internet. My blood pressure thanks me.

In the meantime have a semi-NSFW art piece.

Spoiler

[source]

Hah, Dorian pinup. I love it. Now that I'm more comfortable with the DAI Cinematic Tool I'm planning on taking a couple of shots of the infamous butt scene when I get there in my current play. But... taking them during actual cinematics has proven to be a bit weird, so I'm not quite sure how the results will look.

And I'm just dying to see a full screen of this...

Spoiler

Danaduchy on tumblr.

[GGGenesis]

While first impressions can be significant, I think it's just important to take the person as a whole, with all of their unique attributes, even if some of those may -- or may not -- be stereotypical. Dorian is a great guy, and focusing on one aspect of him, whether that be his vanity or his sexuality, does the character a disservice and honestly says more about the individual than it does about Dorian.

Unfortunately the problem in the entertainment industry comes from homosexual characters, particularly men, being portrayed in a stereotypical manner, often without any other depth, who are used as emotional support for the main (straight) character rather than having their own agency. So while David is correct in that it's not bad to have some gay characters with stereotypical features, I think that the key is to have those characters be well-rounded, while including those features, which is something that he certainly pulls off with Dorian, but the entertainment industry struggles to pull off as a whole.

I think the bigger question here is "What is a stereotypical gay man?" A lot of people would say he's got to be feminine, most likely white, really skinny, wears girly clothing, really likes colour and fashion and make up and art and name brand items, doesn't work out, squeals a lot, limp wrist, lisp...etc etc. But then the anti-thesis to this is another stereotypical gay man which is he's probably in the military, he's super buff, works out and drinks lots of protein shakes, has nice hair, waxes etc. So...yeah...To be real honest with you, there is no such thing as a 'stereotypical gay man'. He's just a regular ordinary guy who has varying tastes and interests who just happens to be gay. This. Happens. All. The. Time. No matter what you do, when a gay character is created they become reduced to being little more than gay. They become a stereotype because it's easier for dumb people to think that way. It's easier for them to class all gay men as being all the same because we aren't autonomous people who happen to be unique just like they are. If we are, then that means they're hypocrites, which is all kinds of wrong. 

 

And this doesn't just go out to the anti-gay crowd, but even the pro-gay crowd and heck, even gay men! If a gay character doesn't embody X amount of gay tropes, he's a bad representation of gay people, if a gay character embodies too much of X, then he's making gay people look bad and samey. You can't win. And the problem isn't because of the writer, the problem is that when people hear that someone is gay, they have expectations of you and different people want you to challenge the expectation or follow it.

 

Just recently my husband 'came out' to his engineering classmates at a class party. Someone asked him what it was like living with a gay man (me) and he was really confused. No one knew he was gay because he's ex-military, broad shouldered, dresses like any regular guy, obviously works out, over 6ft tall, an engineer, never wears make up or colour and speaks in a sarcastic monotone. Then when he introduces me as his partner they start with the "Oh well, you were in the military." and the "Oh man it's so obvious, I mean your body." Then you have the women asking him if he's sure because their gaydar is bad.

 

TL;DR, if you make a stereotypically straight white guy into a gay guy, he will be a stereotypically gay guy because can't look beyond a person's non-straightness.  I mean, if you made a straight white guy really bland in media, no one is going to point at him and say "HAH! TOKEN STRAIGHT GUY PANDERING!" This kind of selectiveness is homophobic and it occurs in straight and gay communities alike. 

 

Anyway, Dorian. None of his stereotypical traits are noticeable unless you skipped the mages and recruited the Templars. Or you decided to change his armour and noticed he is wearing silk and velvet. It's clear from a mile away that he likes men, but he's not yelling at the PC that he's hungry for man meat and wants to explore Varric's chest hair and Deep Roads. But people will create that mental image because gays = gay sex and not ever romantic attraction. Like honestly, I worry that homophobic people think about gay men having sex more than I do...

[Norina]

And I'm just dying to see a full screen of this...

Spoiler

Danaduchy on tumblr.

 

Here you go! Please don't pass out or anything

Spoiler

This scene is extremely buggy with a lot of clipping problems, especially with non-humans. *You humans are all racist!*

 

I love being able to pause cutscenes   Big thanks to the developers of the DAI Cinematic Tools!

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

[nightscrawl]

Just recently my husband 'came out' to his engineering classmates at a class party. Someone asked him what it was like living with a gay man (me) and he was really confused. No one knew he was gay because he's ex-military, broad shouldered, dresses like any regular guy, obviously works out, over 6ft tall, an engineer, never wears make up or colour and speaks in a sarcastic monotone. Then when he introduces me as his partner they start with the "Oh well, you were in the military." and the "Oh man it's so obvious, I mean your body." Then you have the women asking him if he's sure because their gaydar is bad.

I know this is the Dorian thread and all, but I just wanted to remark on this personal bit... Seriously? Are manners extinct or something? I see remarks and comments like this all the time from people of some minority being questioned by whatever the majority is, and the question -- whatever it is -- is usually either really personal, inappropriate, or both. It's like the internet has caused humanity as a whole to lose their filters and they just spew whatever thought enters their mind. I just don't understand it.

I'm surprised that your hubby's eyes didn't roll so far back in his head that he was unable to see.

 

But people will create that mental image because gays = gay sex and not ever romantic attraction. Like honestly, I worry that homophobic people think about gay men having sex more than I do...

Quite a while ago, before you joined the forums/this thread, we had a discussion on the absurdity of straights, particularly guys, focusing on the whole top/bottom dynamic. This was based on another thread where a guy kept insisting that Dorian was a bottom, and trying to foist that opinion on others, despite suggestions that it should be up to head-canon (for your Inquisitor and their relationship) and whatnot. I gave up on that one after only two posts, realizing that I was going nowhere pretty quickly. And I made a reference to pegging. So there's that.

 

Not going into detail or anything, but I've been amused to observe that my own personal view has shifted over time as I've developed the relationship between Dorian and my Inquisitor.

 

 

Anyway, Dorian. None of his stereotypical traits are noticeable unless you skipped the mages and recruited the Templars. Or you decided to change his armour and noticed he is wearing silk and velvet. It's clear from a mile away that he likes men, but he's not yelling at the PC that he's hungry for man meat and wants to explore Varric's chest hair and Deep Roads.

Honest question... if we are ignoring the stereotypes, how is it clear that he likes men? For example, if you play a female character and also never take Bull along so never get their banter, how would you know? Am I missing something?

I knew his preference before playing the game. It was the only thing about him (well, other than the "good Tevinter mage") I did know going in as I purposely started avoiding the forums and anything DAI related shortly after all the romances were revealed. I do recall reading an (not totally serious) article/piece by a woman who was bemoaning getting her heart broken. I doubt she was alone in that. So I don't really think it's obvious.

I do wish I had gone in totally blind. My intention on my first play was to romance Cullen, which I did. But I don't know how I would have reacted to Dorian romance-wise had I not already known. In general I really like a more swarthy type, and I love going for the witty, roguish types in games, because they're fun. If I hadn't known Dorian was already gay I might have tried on my first play. As it was I had such a definite goal that it never entered my mind. I also never take flirt options with people I'm not intending to romance, so the fact that they were available for Dorian for my female character wouldn't have meant anything.

[nightscrawl]

Bit of a self-promotion since this is a (VERY MINOR) Dorian mod... Keep in mind that there are issues with mods after the most recent patch. But if you're still on patch 7 and have not updated, then feel free to try this.
 
Some of you might have noticed that the drapery on his left arm is a bit pixelated. Well, I fixed that. Unlike the imperfect stitching on the right side, this pixelation was not intentional, and was a result of unfortunate quality loss on the robe's tint map. I knew that this was likely the culprit since I had to contend with similar issues when I made my Skyhold Attire mod.
 

Spoiler

Nexus link.

[Gervaise]

I have to admit that the first time I played the game I wondered if I had misunderstood about Dorian being gay because there was nothing obvious in his behaviour and when my girl flirted with him he seemed to enjoy it.   When she flirted with him a second time and he still didn't let on, I really began to wonder what was going on because she (I) was really conflicted over her feelings for Dorian when she had initially been attracted to Solas (after all she was an elf).   I must admit I'd have been really annoyed about it if I had missed out on the Solas relationship because of holding out for Dorian but at least I knew that it was going nowhere beforehand, so I could be cautious about what I did.    So I can understand the person who said their heart was broken when they discovered Dorian was gay since they obviously didn't have prior knowledge.     As it was, considering what happened with Solas, it was a pity in a way that Dorian didn't stop that in its tracks since she could have avoided a lot of heart break.  

 

I have been doing my latest run with a straight male Trevellyan who initially didn't flirt with Dorian at all and again there were no obvious signs to me even though I was doing Champions of the Just rather than Hushed Whispers.    Am I just being dense?    My experience with my male Inquisitors has been that unless you flirt with Dorian, you'd never suspect he was gay until the point where you meet his father.  

[nightscrawl]

As it was, considering what happened with Solas, it was a pity in a way that Dorian didn't stop that in its tracks since she could have avoided a lot of heart break.

Do you mean stopped your relationship with Solas? Dorian aside, that would have been an interesting dynamic to have with the companions, similar to how Varric has a talk with Hawke over their LI. I know that Dorian makes a cute reference (a greeting, on-click dialog) to Cullen if you're romancing him, but it's very minor. I haven't observed any other ones since Cullen and Dorian are the only two I've romanced. Some of the companions have some alternate lines when you ask them about various other companions -- Sera's changes from a general observation to a romance-based one.

 

Honestly, the one to have stopped it would have been Cole, since he (partly?) knew. But because of Cole's nature I'm not sure if something on that level would have registered and caused him to give you a warning.

 

With the caveat that Dorian somehow thought Solas was trouble, I'm not sure whether he would interfere or not. I think he would probably be torn between wanting to stay out of someone's business and being a loyal friend (we know he is one). He might also think that he has no business commenting on someone else's romantic relationship when he has never had one himself -- I don't agree with this line of thought, but it's Dorian's mind, not my own. A tricky issue, I think. I'm not sure what he would do!

[Dr. Doctor]

"Being something of an expert on rejection I'd recommend wine. Lots of it."

"That...doesn't sound particularly healthy."

"We could just hurl something particularly heavy over the side of the balcony?"

"That could work."

[tklivory]

Bit of a self-promotion since this is a (VERY MINOR) Dorian mod... Keep in mind that there are issues with mods after the most recent patch. But if you're still on patch 7 and have not updated, then feel free to try this.
 
Some of you might have noticed that the drapery on his left arm is a bit pixelated. Well, I fixed that. Unlike the imperfect stitching on the right side, this pixelation was not intentional, and was a result of unfortunate quality loss on the robe's tint map. I knew that this was likely the culprit since I had to contend with similar issues when I made my Skyhold Attire mod.
 

Spoiler

Nexus link.

 

*adds to growing list of Companion mods*

 

Now if only someone could figure out how to solve the problem of the shadows on his neck in all the scenes in Redcliffe, I would be an ecstatic Tiki.

 

I have to admit that the first time I played the game I wondered if I had misunderstood about Dorian being gay because there was nothing obvious in his behaviour and when my girl flirted with him he seemed to enjoy it.   When she flirted with him a second time and he still didn't let on, I really began to wonder what was going on because she (I) was really conflicted over her feelings for Dorian when she had initially been attracted to Solas (after all she was an elf).   I must admit I'd have been really annoyed about it if I had missed out on the Solas relationship because of holding out for Dorian but at least I knew that it was going nowhere beforehand, so I could be cautious about what I did.    So I can understand the person who said their heart was broken when they discovered Dorian was gay since they obviously didn't have prior knowledge.     As it was, considering what happened with Solas, it was a pity in a way that Dorian didn't stop that in its tracks since she could have avoided a lot of heart break.  

 

I have been doing my latest run with a straight male Trevellyan who initially didn't flirt with Dorian at all and again there were no obvious signs to me even though I was doing Champions of the Just rather than Hushed Whispers.    Am I just being dense?    My experience with my male Inquisitors has been that unless you flirt with Dorian, you'd never suspect he was gay until the point where you meet his father.  

 

No, you're not dense, though it's hard to know how many people would have suspected it if Bioware hadn't announced that he was gay from the get-go. I think a large part of people's perception of Dorian-as-gay comes from their foreknowledge that he was gay. I've seen people (women and men both) on Tumblr who were devastated they couldn't romance Dorian with a female Inquisitor (how they missed the hype I have no idea). A friend of mine on Tumblr even got a long, detailed anon message (paraphrasing here) about "how obvious it was Dorian wasn't gay and that of course the whole gay thing had been added in at the last minute to be politically correct, because obviously Dorian didn't act like a gay man."

 

It just... I just... EEEEEERGH. No. No no no no no no. No. No. No. Nope. 

 

Having said that, I do think he was brilliantly written to be first and foremost a person and not a gay man. He was never intended to be 'just' a gay man, because no one is 'just' a gay man in real life, they're normal men who happen to enjoy the company of other men. His sexual orientation is, for him, just what it is for rest of us in that it is a facet of the jewel that is Dorian of House Pavus and not his defining characteristic like so many of his detractors want to make it out to be. He uses it to identify a part of himself, but it is not his whole self or, as in the screenshots GGGenesis posted earlier, he'd go around introducing himself that way. And he doesn't.

 

More than it being only a facet of him, his orientation also helps form a part of him that many of us do not have, a part that many gay (or other) players saw in themselves when playing DAI. His orientation was the facet which others in his life tried to crack and warp and shape into something he was not. It's not his orientation that's highlighted in the game, or a personal struggle with accepting it - it's how it fit into the world he was shaped by that is the main source of conflict in his life. Subtle, but different than being 'hated for being gay'. And that is the subtlety Gaider brought to the character quite well, and that a lot of fans have failed to notice.

 

I love Dorian. I adore his romance, of course, but I love Dorian because he's interesting, he's opinionated, he's not dull, and he truly, truly cares for the Inquisitor, man or woman (regardless of whether or not you've slept with him by the end of the game) if you follow the friendship path. And coming from someone like him, that affection is a devastatingly beautiful thing, which is why I love his character so much. It's important that he's gay, because we need diversity in games, but his brilliance as a character doesn't derive from the fact that he is gay. And I really wish more people - especially those who criticize him 'for being gay' - understood that about him. Because if they did, they'd realize that the same thing is true about real people, too.

[nightscrawl]

More than it being only a facet of him, his orientation also helps form a part of him that many of us do not have, a part that many gay (or other) players saw in themselves when playing DAI. His orientation was the facet which others in his life tried to crack and warp and shape into something he was not. It's not his orientation that's highlighted in the game, or a personal struggle with accepting it - it's how it fit into the world he was shaped by that is the main source of conflict in his life. Subtle, but different than being 'hated for being gay'. And that is the subtlety Gaider brought to the character quite well, and that a lot of fans have failed to notice.

So perfect.

I've tried to explain this in different ways in different threads -- before finally giving up on those threads altogether (I haven't even read the one about the IGN article) -- but it never seems to sink in.

 

If one tries to say that the conflict is not "because he is gay" then people just point to his personal quest and consider that they have won the argument. But it's not the basis for the conflict, it is merely a part of the conflict.

 

In the tavern scene if you ask Dorian to explain he says a really powerful line that I think many of the critics don't fully appreciate.

 

Halward: This display is uncalled for.

Dorian: No, it is called for. You called for it by luring me here.

Halward: This is not what I wanted.

Dorian: I'm never what you wanted, Father, or had you forgotten?

 

This also goes along with Cole's line later on, "His face in the stands, watching as I pass the test. So proud there's tears in his eyes. Anything to make him happy, anything."

 

I also think Alexius's read on him in WoT Vol. 2 was pretty much dead on, but I don't really like to use non-game material in arguments about things, particularly since some of the WoT info is contradictory.

 

 

There is so much pain there. I really want to hug the poor dear.

[GGGenesis]

I know this is the Dorian thread and all, but I just wanted to remark on this personal bit... Seriously? Are manners extinct or something? I see remarks and comments like this all the time from people of some minority being questioned by whatever the majority is, and the question -- whatever it is -- is usually either really personal, inappropriate, or both. It's like the internet has caused humanity as a whole to lose their filters and they just spew whatever thought enters their mind. I just don't understand it.

I'm surprised that your hubby's eyes didn't roll so far back in his head that he was unable to see.
 

Quite a while ago, before you joined the forums/this thread, we had a discussion on the absurdity of straights, particularly guys, focusing on the whole top/bottom dynamic. This was based on another thread where a guy kept insisting that Dorian was a bottom, and trying to foist that opinion on others, despite suggestions that it should be up to head-canon (for your Inquisitor and their relationship) and whatnot. I gave up on that one after only two posts, realizing that I was going nowhere pretty quickly. And I made a reference to pegging. So there's that.

 

Not going into detail or anything, but I've been amused to observe that my own personal view has shifted over time as I've developed the relationship between Dorian and my Inquisitor.

 

Honest question... if we are ignoring the stereotypes, how is it clear that he likes men? For example, if you play a female character and also never take Bull along so never get their banter, how would you know? Am I missing something?
 

My husband was a sniper in a special forces unit - 2nd Commando Regiment. As a result, he has lots of patience. It's interesting that when people challenge the status quo that people refuse that challenge, yet at the same time ask for it. The same person who was telling him that he can't be gay because he's so straight was telling him that I am a walking stereotype shoving my values down homophobic people's throats and if I wasn't so 'queer' people would be more accepting. Funny thing is, I look feminine (thanks Japanese genes) but that's the only stereotype I have 'on display'. This happens in fan works too like Tiki mentioned: enter attractive, charming gay man who can be straight passing. Queue straight females having him turn straight in their fan works because 'the gay thing can be a phase/it's just tagged on.' I don't know about you, but a man marrying another man or a man turning his back on his family because they won't respect his sexual preferences...I doubt that's a phase or a 'stuck on' thing.

 

The whole top/bottom thing I find to be absolutely hilarious.   Polls will consistently show that the majority of gay men are versatile (roughly 35-50%), only 20-30% are strictly one or the other (it splits rather evenly) and the rest are mostly top or bottom, but don't mind switching it up for the right person. So with that said, strictly bottom or top are in the vast minority, but fanfiction will consistently make the more effeminate one a bottom. For all his overt masculinity, Iron Bull seems the sort to gladly bend over and 'get his soul touched', but there's probably barely enough fanworks to count that happening on one hand.

 

When it comes to Dorian's overt gayness, I was being sarcastic. :L But there are elements that some people will argue that give him away. He's attractive, he has a fancy moustache, something about him says Freddie Mercury and it's the accent. RP accents can get exaggerated which is similar to the stereotypical gay voice - very annunciated, a little posh, exaggerated. I had someone tell me that Dorian reminded him of Sander Cohen so I guess, visually, Dorian is slightly tropey. My husband likened him to Salvadore Dali who did have homosexual relationships and another friend of mine said his name plus his voice made him think of Dorian Gray and Oscar Wilde.

[tklivory]

Part of me really wonders what the fandom reaction would have been if Bioware hadn't said anything about Dorian or Sera's orientation ahead of the game release. I suspect pandemonium and dogs and cats living together, but I honestly wonder how many people would have looked at Dorian in his first meeting and called him gay. Sera... well. That's actually a bit more obvious in the first meeting, especially with a Qunari woman, but with Dorian, the ONLY indications would be... what? The things GGGenesis mentioned, I guess? Mustache, accent, flamboyant way of speaking?

 

Part of me really wishes to know how many would have never assumed or just had a passing thought about it. Or assumed he was bisexual rather than gay.

 

But then, I'm evil. I acknowledge it freely. Pandemonium is a small price to pay for quelling my curiosity.

[jtav]

So, um hi again.

I just finished romancing Dorian for the first time. Wow. That was beautiful and heartbreaking in the best possible way. It did so much to flesh out a character I had regarded as charming but somewhat flat. And his romance quest gives me RP options. I think I finally lost it in the temple when he's freaking out over whether the Inquisitor is okay. Eben his leaving makes me feel good in a buttersweet way because it's rooted in Dorian becoming a better person and there's no hint of emotional blackmail or condescension.

I think I found my canon. I don't know if I'll be willing to romance someone else.

[nightscrawl]

Queue straight females having him turn straight in their fan works because 'the gay thing can be a phase/it's just tagged on.'

I can't stand slash pairings; straight, gay, whichever. I really don't see a point in it if it's not based on something in the actual original work. The main fanfic pairing I've read in the past was from the CLAMP manga Tokyo Babylon, and it's (sort of) sequel X: Seishirou and Subaru. But there was actual basis for that pairing in the work. But like... Kirk/Spock, Harry/Draco, Cullen/Alistair... Obviously the people who do such fanworks are just trying to get their (and other's) rocks off, but eh... totally not for me, but I accept that other people like it.
 
To bring it back to Dragon Age, I'm sure there are some Fenris/Isabela fics out there, and I'm also sure a ton of Iron Bull/Dorian fics, but at least these are based on actual in-game pairings.

 

For all his overt masculinity, Iron Bull seems the sort to gladly bend over and 'get his soul touched', but there's probably barely enough fanworks to count that happening on one hand.

Heh, to quote Dorian: interesting turn of phrase. As an aside, I really do wonder how many gay men read, or just try out, fanfic written by straight women and just laugh. Even though I write my fics for my own personal enjoyment -- for my own reading, but the writing process as well as continual tweaking is its own entertainment -- and will (most likely) never post them anywhere, I do wonder about the realism, which does matter to me. As far as I know, all of the Seishirou/Subaru fics (my introduction to the genre) were written by women. The one I started that I knew for certain was written by a guy was barely started and never finished.

 

Unfortunately, I really have no desire to read pairings I'm not interested in. Or like if someone were to post a Bull/Dorian fic, or even a Dorian/Inquisitor fic, and say that there is a great (and realistic) sex scene in it, I wouldn't want to read it because I have a brain block when it comes to Dorian and other guys. But oddly, I didn't feel that way with the Cullen/fem Inquisitor fics I've read... I dunno, I guess I'm just much more attached to Dorian in general.

 

And also... there might be certain more emphasis here or there -- I haven't heard him speak enough out of game to know -- but Ramon Tikaram pretty much sounds exactly like Dorian in real life.

If you haven't seen and heard Ramon speaking in real life, here ya go... I'm always weirded out at first when I see some of my fav VAs for the first time.

 

I think I found my canon. I don't know if I'll be willing to romance someone else.

Yeah... welcome to the club.

 

 

 

[edit]

Sorry for some of the digression above. But, like others here I tend to regard this as a 'safe' thread to post such things.

[nightscrawl]

So, um hi again.

I just finished romancing Dorian for the first time. Wow. That was beautiful and heartbreaking in the best possible way. It did so much to flesh out a character I had regarded as charming but somewhat flat. And his romance quest gives me RP options. I think I finally lost it in the temple when he's freaking out over whether the Inquisitor is okay. Eben his leaving makes me feel good in a buttersweet way because it's rooted in Dorian becoming a better person and there's no hint of emotional blackmail or condescension.

I think I found my canon. I don't know if I'll be willing to romance someone else.

I actually don't mind him going back to Tevinter at some point. I know it's important to him, and I also feel that, despite his love for the Inquisitor, he would always wonder if he could have been successful in getting the ball rolling on actual change. In fact it's actually a part of my head-canon, even though they remain a couple. BUT I don't like the way it was handled in the game at all. The post-Mythal conversation is so lacking for me that I always pick the stay option because I can't be clear to him on my actual feelings about it. It bothered me so much that I had to write an entire fanfic about it.

 

It also doesn't help that there is a weird bug where your choice doesn't register correctly and his post-game dialog is dependent on whether or not you spoke to him at the party... grrr.

 

 

Regarding this: "... there's no hint of emotional blackmail or condescension." It was pointed out to me that both the Inquisitor and Dorian are being (somewhat) manipulative in this scene, dependent on the dialog choice. If you pick the "I understand" option, Dorian hits you with his "heartbreak" remark, and unlike the other one, the Inquisitor doesn't even get a chance to respond, so that is Dorian being manipulative. If you pick "I need you," you are yourself being manipulative, but at least Dorian has a jokey response and the Inquisitor also gets to respond to that.

 

I should add that even though the word "manipulative" does sound rather negative, it doesn't necessarily have to be. I tend to feel that the "I need you" line is a bit more satisfactory (regardless of the result), because the Inquisitor is able to be more clear about his feelings. It bothers me tremendously that you cannot respond to Dorian's heartbreak comment, and it feels like the conversation is unfinished if you go this route.

 

(Obviously the above is my own perspective on the conversation.)

 

I think it's clear what Dorian wants: to stay with the Inquisitor. This seems to be the case regardless of which path you choose, the only difference is in his openness about why he is staying. Even if you pick the "I understand option," in the post-game you get this: "It will be difficult to return to Tevinter after all of this. And leaving you? Most difficult of all. I'd almost rather let the Imperium rot. Such is my lot. Just a little longer then."

 

Despite the DA Keep tile, the actual choice thrown to the player seems like it is more for roleplay than anything else, since Dorian wants to stay. I guess we'll have to wait some years to see if anything comes of it in another game or a DLC.

 

 

Omg... sorry I wrote a tome. >.<

[Fredward]

My husband was a sniper in a special forces unit - 2nd Commando Regiment. As a result, he has lots of patience.

 

Just popping in to say that I think I have developed a crush on your husband.

 

That's all.

 

Okay.

 

Bye.