22176 réponses à ce sujet

[piloteyre]

(de-lurking, hi all)

 

I, uh, don't exactly share the negative feelings towards Iron Bull that most here seem to have, lol, he's my canon romance, but I just wanted to say I sympathize with the frustration expressed in this thread. I like Dorian a lot as a character and I have zero problem with companions hooking up, even companions my characters romance, but the pushing of Dorian/IB by Bioware has really started to leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure they genuinely love the pairing and there's probably some earnest attempt at representation behind the visibility they're giving it, but they seem to have forgotten that they made them LIs at all. In particular it seems very strange to be so publicly dismissive of the series' first dedicated gay male romance in favor of another ship with the same character. Gaider's comments really surprised me because of that. He's been around fandom long enough to know that writer's comments get taken as Word of God and tend to set the tone for fandom as a whole. I'm sure he could, and would, protest that it's just his opinion, but like nightscrawl said, certain people's opinions will always have more weight, and he's one of them.

 

Fwiw, as a Bullmancer I do get the impression that, when it became clear Bull was a much less popular LI than most of the other companions, it took the wind out Weekes' sails for the IB/Inq ship, so to speak. Which is sad, because he seemed really enthusiastic about it before. And then Doribull was much more popular by comparison, or at least the fanbase was very vocal, and that combined with some pettiness over the anti-doribull stuff in fandom landed us where we are now, with them being promo'd super hard. I don't think they were ever meant to be more important or more 'true love' than either of their respective Inquisitor romances, but circumstances and fan reaction seem to have turned the tides a bit. 

 

Meh, sorry for the tl;dr. I guess i just needed to commiserate a little. Anyway, Dorian is great and I hope he gets a big role in DA4, and that you guys get a lot of sweet Dorian/Inq moments You guys definitely have one of the best romances in the game, and I'd love to see how the Inq and Dorian are doing further down the line.

[HurraFTP]

Hi, and don't apologize, you're welcome

 

Fwiw, as a Bullmancer I do get the impression that, when it became clear Bull was a much less popular LI than most of the other companions, it took the wind out Weekes' sails for the IB/Inq ship, so to speak. Which is sad, because he seemed really enthusiastic about it before. And then Doribull was much more popular by comparison, or at least the fanbase was very vocal, and that combined with some pettiness over the anti-doribull stuff in fandom landed us where we are now, with them being promo'd super hard. I don't think they were ever meant to be more important or more 'true love' than either of their respective Inquisitor romances, but circumstances and fan reaction seem to have turned the tides a bit.

 

I think you're right about that.

 

(I've a lot of other things to say but 1) I'm a bit drunk right now 2) my english is bad most of the time and ...well, see point 1)

[ComedicSociopathy]

Never really had much of an issue with IB and Dorian getting together. Their both consenting adults and while Dorian acts embarrassed about the whole affair in the main game, in Trespasser the pairing seems to grow into something far more romantic and steady. Seriously, they sound like an old couple in Trespasser. 

[GoldenGail3]

Oh wow, i just did Dorian's romance (after delaying it for so long....) And wow, people are so very right. So much feels 

[ABASOVA]

(de-lurking, hi all)

 

I, uh, don't exactly share the negative feelings towards Iron Bull that most here seem to have, lol, he's my canon romance, but I just wanted to say I sympathize with the frustration expressed in this thread. I like Dorian a lot as a character and I have zero problem with companions hooking up, even companions my characters romance, but the pushing of Dorian/IB by Bioware has really started to leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure they genuinely love the pairing and there's probably some earnest attempt at representation behind the visibility they're giving it, but they seem to have forgotten that they made them LIs at all. In particular it seems very strange to be so publicly dismissive of the series' first dedicated gay male romance in favor of another ship with the same character. Gaider's comments really surprised me because of that. He's been around fandom long enough to know that writer's comments get taken as Word of God and tend to set the tone for fandom as a whole. I'm sure he could, and would, protest that it's just his opinion, but like nightscrawl said, certain people's opinions will always have more weight, and he's one of them.

 

Fwiw, as a Bullmancer I do get the impression that, when it became clear Bull was a much less popular LI than most of the other companions, it took the wind out Weekes' sails for the IB/Inq ship, so to speak. Which is sad, because he seemed really enthusiastic about it before. And then Doribull was much more popular by comparison, or at least the fanbase was very vocal, and that combined with some pettiness over the anti-doribull stuff in fandom landed us where we are now, with them being promo'd super hard. I don't think they were ever meant to be more important or more 'true love' than either of their respective Inquisitor romances, but circumstances and fan reaction seem to have turned the tides a bit. 

 

Meh, sorry for the tl;dr. I guess i just needed to commiserate a little. Anyway, Dorian is great and I hope he gets a big role in DA4, and that you guys get a lot of sweet Dorian/Inq moments You guys definitely have one of the best romances in the game, and I'd love to see how the Inq and Dorian are doing further down the line.

TBH I just think this is Weekes' m.o. He did this with Garrus and Tali (both exceedingly popular LI) in ME as well. I know some Tali fans who did not like the whole Fleet and Flotilla (Weekes is a poet and came up with this love story) thing getting hammered into their romance scene in Citadel DLC since it portrays a quarian and turian romance and since it comes up with the hookup Tali has with Garrus; it makes it seem like she has a massive turian fetish since she obsesses over the vid. Plus Weekes also hinted a little distaste for Talimancers with the dialogue he composed for the turian/quarian couple in Illium's bar, where the quarian talks about how her human boyfriend has no consideration of his levo toxicity to her (which makes no sense; she's more likely to get ill from a turian). Add to that, if you romance Tali in ME3, her and Garrus still flirt in ambient dialogue (Tali: "I love you to Garrus"). Add to that i'm bitter she wasn't available for my femShep, but instead for the fugly turian.  

[ABASOVA]

I'm not surprised one bit.  What Gaider usually considers canon is not anything I would choose personally so this is just another item I can add to that list. I don't think anyone should avoid experiencing the romances based on someone else's head canon, writer or not.  If we all avoided relationships IRL based on the possibility that our partners would be better off with someone else then we would never have relationships. It would just be a world full of people avoiding falling in love on some preconceived notion that the other person would be happier with someone else. Not a very healthy outlook.

 

But it does suck to think the only two M/M options could have been more into each other than with you (if you see it that way based on Gaider's opinion and the Movember ads, Trespasser DLC et al) which could be the place some people are coming from.

 

If they are trying, in some way, to make Dorian and Bull canon then the least they could have done was make Cullen a M/M option though.  My IQ would have been all over that blondie.

 

Actually, I might start my Gay Cullen run soon. I've been thinking of it for a while now but I've been deep into TW3 and Fallout for a while and now I'm coming up for air and ready to play something else for a bit.

I come from a family littered with divorces and infidelity. Right now my sister abandoned her husband of 12 years and two children to be with his best friend, who she "always felt [she] had better chemistry with". I can assure you if someone would be happier with another person (especially someone that they already know and are friendly with), they will eventually end up with that other person if the other person will have them and dump you. I'd do it!

 

The thing is, what are we to interpret from the content with Dorian/Iron Bull vs. Dorian/Inquisitor. Do they appear to have a more exciting, more sexually fulfilling, and happier (reuniting often) together in their future relationship than they do with our inquisitor based on what we see; the extra romance content (slides) and recognition they are getting as a couple? This isn't a- maybe there is someone out there my LI or my character would be happier with that we haven't met yet- so it's unknown (I assume this is what you meant and that most certainly is always the case, that there could be someone out there better for us we haven't met). But here we have three individuals (Dorian, Iron Bull, and inquisitor) who are well known to each other, and two of the three individuals (Dorian/Iron Bull) are in the end getting extra romance content/companion dialogue/acknowledgment/a greater depiction of their love and its conflicts and their eventual overcoming it and resulting happiness in slides (we do not get, but something rather bland in comparison)  as well as writer recognition, than the other couple seems, who's to say that given a chance they'd choose each other over our character. That's the icky feeling I get with these types of pairings. I can only go with what the writer is telling me or portraying to me in the story. And what I get is Dorian/Iron Bull romance is extraordinary (they overcome so much conflict and yet are happy together, meeting in secret) and Dorian/Inquisitor is ordinary (they are working on it from a distance).

 

Many are feeling this negativity for a reason. It's just some of us cannot articulate it well (like me^ for example) without seeming pathetically jealous and petty. But we have evolved these types of feelings to protect us from situations that may not turn out well for us in the end. I can't tell you how many times I have said "I got a bad feeling about this", but couldn't explain why. And heeding that "bad feeling" ended up saving me a lot of trouble.

 

For example, I have a "bad feeling" I should not have written this, but I am going to ignore it and see what happens.

 

Edit: To me it is just the implication that comes from them getting more end game romance content and recognition as a couple (and as the only M/M romances to boot). Liara, for example, got more romance content than any other LI, and I lost count of how many hate threads have been made about her and the writer's for trying to force her (how it is interpreted by many) as our canon romance, even though nothing has been suggested that she is the canon romance, it feels heavily implied though. The Liara hate is so palatable partially because she get's so much romance content over other LIs that some go low-EMS ending to kill her off. 

[Hazegurl]

I come from a family littered with divorces and infidelity. Right now my sister abandoned her husband of 12 years and two children to be with his best friend, who she "always felt [she] had better chemistry with". I can assure you if someone would be happier with another person (especially someone that they already know and are friendly with), they will eventually end up with that other person if the other person will have them and dump you. I'd do it!

 

The thing is, what are we to interpret from the content with Dorian/Iron Bull vs. Dorian/Inquisitor. Do they appear to have a more exciting, more sexually fulfilling, and happier (reuniting often) together in their future relationship than they do with our inquisitor based on what we see; the extra romance content (slides) and recognition they are getting as a couple? This isn't a- maybe there is someone out there my LI or my character would be happier with that we haven't met yet- so it's unknown (I assume this is what you meant and that most certainly is always the case, that there could be someone out there better for us we haven't met). But here we have three individuals (Dorian, Iron Bull, and inquisitor) who are well known to each other, and two of the three individuals (Dorian/Iron Bull) are in the end getting extra romance content/companion dialogue/acknowledgment/a greater depiction of their love and its conflicts and their eventual overcoming it and resulting happiness in slides (we do not get, but something rather bland in comparison)  as well as writer recognition, than the other couple seems, who's to say that given a chance they'd choose each other over our character. That's the icky feeling I get with these types of pairings. I can only go with what the writer is telling me or portraying to me in the story. And what I get is Dorian/Iron Bull romance is extraordinary (they overcome so much conflict and yet are happy together, meeting in secret) and Dorian/Inquisitor is ordinary (they are working on it from a distance).

 

Many are feeling this negativity for a reason. It's just some of us cannot articulate it well (like me^ for example) without seeming pathetically jealous and petty. But we have evolved these types of feelings to protect us from situations that may not turn out well for us in the end. I can't tell you how many times I have said "I got a bad feeling about this", but couldn't explain why. And heeding that "bad feeling" ended up saving me a lot of trouble.

 

For example, I have a "bad feeling" I should not have written this, but I am going to ignore it and see what happens.

That is certainly another way of looking at it and one I can't argue with because it rings true on so many levels. It's easier to believe that the person you're with is better off with you when you don't really have a side by side comparison staring you in the face. 

 

I personally don't think it's wrong for companions to flirt or hook up, I actually like it, and didn't even mind Isabella flirting with Fenris while he was my LI.  But I do think that in the end it's the extra content, praise, and attention to detail that the Dorian/Bull relationship has that makes it worse.  Put that on top of them being the only two gay options you get and it's hard to not walk away feeling like you really had no options at all.

 

 But I will say that the IQ isn't hiding Dorian away like some precious jewel nor has him under lock and key, if he truly wants Bull and vice vera then they wouldn't care if they are dating the IQ, they would just simply be together and be happy.  At the end of the day, If Dorian is with the IQ for 2+ years, regardless of the type of relationship he could have had with Bull, it's because he wants to be with the IQ of his own free will.  If I erase the Dorian/Bull relationship and focus solely on Dorian/IQ.  I don't see Dorian flirting with Bull or attempting to betray the IQ in any way. What we get is Dorian remaining focused 100% on the IQ as the love of his life.  Even to the point of spacing out while we're out on the field.  Something that could have cost him his life if he weren't with a capable group and an overprotective IQ. *cough*

 

Then we have the insight into Dorian's mind from Cole which tells us that Dorian is happier and his fears of rejection are gone.  If he wants Bull so badly then he could take that new found confidence and go "Ride the Bull" all he likes... but he doesn't.  Unless Weekes decides to retcon the story in DA4.

 

 I will admit that this whole thing has at least prompted me to go ahead and install the Cullen bi mod. For the first time I have no plans to romance Dorian as a male IQ and it's mainly because I've wanted to romance Cullen first and I want my own side by side comparison of my IQ in a gay relationship without Dorian or IB as a factor.  So far, I have to say, Cullen is so freaking cute, I enjoy teasing him and watching him stammer and try to change the subject. And my usually shy IQ is a bit more forward to make up for Cullen's shyness.

[TwixMix]

Well I'm not asking if he'd grow it out, but rather if his hair type is the sort to be very dark, giving him a 5 o'clock shadow. Like, some guys look like they need a shave right after they've shaved, or even just a few hours later. I'd imagine that if he were that type he would probably shave again before going to a ball or something.

 

If it was that type, then wouldn't it be very obvious?

 

I, uh, don't exactly share the negative feelings towards Iron Bull that most here seem to have, lol, he's my canon romance

 

Hey thanks for sharing I do like Bull as an individual, and I love Dorian as an individual, and I also love each of their relationships with the inquisitor (like Bull was my second choice). I do think that when Dorian and Bull are together, they both lose a lot of their individuality, personality, etc., essentially what makes them such great characters to begin with. I love Bull and Dorian but I don't like what they become when they're together, y'know?

[TwixMix]

 But I will say that the IQ isn't hiding Dorian away like some precious jewel nor has him under lock and key, if he truly wants Bull and vice vera then they wouldn't care if they are dating the IQ, they would just simply be together and be happy.  At the end of the day, If Dorian is with the IQ for 2+ years, regardless of the type of relationship he could have had with Bull, it's because he wants to be with the IQ of his own free will.  If I erase the Dorian/Bull relationship and focus solely on Dorian/IQ.  I don't see Dorian flirting with Bull or attempting to betray the IQ in any way. What we get is Dorian remaining focused 100% on the IQ as the love of his life.  Even to the point of spacing out while we're out on the field.  Something that could have cost him his life if he weren't with a capable group and an overprotective IQ. *cough*

 

Then we have the insight into Dorian's mind from Cole which tells us that Dorian is happier and his fears of rejection are gone.  If he wants Bull so badly then he could take that new found confidence and go "Ride the Bull" all he likes... but he doesn't.  Unless Weekes decides to retcon the story in DA4.

 

 I will admit that this whole thing has at least prompted me to go ahead and install the Cullen bi mod. For the first time I have no plans to romance Dorian as a male IQ and it's mainly because I've wanted to romance Cullen first and I want my own side by side comparison of my IQ in a gay relationship without Dorian or IB as a factor.  So far, I have to say, Cullen is so freaking cute, I enjoy teasing him and watching him stammer and try to change the subject. And my usually shy IQ is a bit more forward to make up for Cullen's shyness.

 

Hey yeah, I agree with you there. If you think about it, Dorian/inq are so stable that they can live apart and not have any issues, and Dorian can do what he loves(help his country), while with Bull, he seems very dependent on seeing him often. Dependency is not the same as intimacy or missing someone, or even relying on someone.

 

Alsooo I heard Cullen was originally supposed to be bi, but they didn't have time to put it in xP

[LorenzEffect]

I can't remember where I read this, but I'd read that Cullen wasn't "originally supposed" to be bisexual per se. I think it was something the developers briefly considered, but ended up deciding against.

[nightscrawl]

If it was that type, then wouldn't it be very obvious?

If you're referring to his in-game model, not necessarily. They don't have those kind of textures in the CC, nor can we see a character's appearance change over time. So Dorian always appears as his immaculate, clean-shaven self.

I always have to fall back on the body models when these discussions happen. For male humans, Dorian, Cullen, and the Inquisitor all share the same body model and textures, just with an altered skin tint. They also share skin textures with male dwarves and elves. Consequently, they are all hairless, with no distinguishable features, because anything along those lines would be more glaring for its repetition than the total lack of them. I'll point to the "Anders hand mole" that is used on several textures throughout DA2 as an example. That is not unique to Anders. Male Hawke has the same mole when undressed and in some outfits, which makes it seem ridiculous.
 
So, this is why I usually say that, with the exception of certain unique NPCs like Isabela, Fenris, and Iron Bull, the bodies can more or less be left to head-canon. Height difference, body hair, scars, freckles, and whatever else.


[edit]
I originally had a huge rant about the bi Cullen thing, but decided against keeping it and determined that it wouldn't be productive. If you really want to know my views you can PM me.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 décembre 2015 - 12:55 .

[nightscrawl]

Subject change... I don't know about anyone else, but I always found it annoying that Halward was dressed in a southern Circle mage robe. I am working on a mod to change this and put him in something else. Would any of you all be interested in such a mod? I would likely provide a few options. I know it's for one cutscene out of a whole huge game, but it has always irked me.

 

When complaining about this on one occasion, a person once responded to me that he was perhaps in disguise in the South, but I doubt the devs actually considered that when they put him into it. He is in the "regal" robe variant, fitting for his station, but just not appropriate otherwise.

[Hazegurl]

Hey yeah, I agree with you there. If you think about it, Dorian/inq are so stable that they can live apart and not have any issues, and Dorian can do what he loves(help his country), while with Bull, he seems very dependent on seeing him often. Dependency is not the same as intimacy or missing someone, or even relying on someone.

 

Alsooo I heard Cullen was originally supposed to be bi, but they didn't have time to put it in xP

Bingo! That pretty much nails it.  This is why I wouldn't trade the relationship between Dorian and IQ for one like Dorian and Bull regardless of how "exciting" it's supposed to be. I wouldn't want to see Dorian have the same type of dependency on the IQ as he seems to develop with Bull.  Nor the same weaknesses.  My IQ can let Dorian go for 2 + years and have him come back to him with feelings that are stronger than ever.  I'm going to accept that as enough. 

 

Yeah, there were some recorded lines in the files BW didn't get rid of that were found.  Not everything is voiced though because BW decided not to go down that route with him which is understandable but I wish they had.   I believe the mod I have allows the Male IQ to flirt with Cullen and restores  the hidden dialogue files and a short scene, and it carries the romance over into Trespasser.    

[nightscrawl]

My IQ can let Dorian go for 2 + years and have him come back to him with feelings that are stronger than ever.  I'm going to accept that as enough.

Oh, was he gone for those two years in your game? I'm assuming this is if you picked the "I understand" in the post-Mythal dialogue? Does he actually have different dialogue relating to that?

 

Or did you just mean in the future, post-Trespasser?

[Reg_Mondt]

Oh, was he gone for those two years in your game? I'm assuming this is if you picked the "I understand" in the post-Mythal dialogue? Does he actually have different dialogue relating to that?

 

If you pick "I understand" in the post-Mythal dialogue, he leaves for those two years. When you meet him again in Trespasser, he greets you as a friend and there's no kiss or anything. The rest of the romance plays out the same though; it's only the first cutscene that's different, as far as I know.

[Hazegurl]

Yeah, I think I got the friend greeting and no kiss but the relationship was still on.  I don't remember much from it cause I've only played it once. But I do remember him still being upset about the IQ dying, him telling my IQ he loves him et al.  Perhaps Dorian greets the IQ as a friend in the beginning because he isn't sure how the IQ still feels after such a long time apart?

[nightscrawl]

Yeah, I think I got the friend greeting and no kiss but the relationship was still on.  I don't remember much from it cause I've only played it once. But I do remember him still being upset about the IQ dying, him telling my IQ he loves him et al.  Perhaps Dorian greets the IQ as a friend in the beginning because he isn't sure how the IQ still feels after such a long time apart?

 

Well, it depends on the person of course, but I don't think a bit of coolness after a two year separation is unnatural or anything. My guy would just glomp onto him immediately, without thinking or regard for being in public (he's generally a private person) . In that case, I'd imagine that Dorian would laugh and relax, and maybe respond.

 

 

(I love this thread btw, and all you peeps. Even the ones I argue with. Just sayin'.)

[Melbella]

Oh, was he gone for those two years in your game? I'm assuming this is if you picked the "I understand" in the post-Mythal dialogue? Does he actually have different dialogue relating to that?
 
Or did you just mean in the future, post-Trespasser?

 

If you pick "I understand" in the post-Mythal dialogue, he leaves for those two years. When you meet him again in Trespasser, he greets you as a friend and there's no kiss or anything. The rest of the romance plays out the same though; it's only the first cutscene that's different, as far as I know.

 

Yeah, I think I got the friend greeting and no kiss but the relationship was still on.  I don't remember much from it cause I've only played it once. But I do remember him still being upset about the IQ dying, him telling my IQ he loves him et al.  Perhaps Dorian greets the IQ as a friend in the beginning because he isn't sure how the IQ still feels after such a long time apart?

Ooh, something different to look forward to when I get around to playing Olinar (my first Dorianmance character) in Trespasser. He took the "I understand" option while Marcus went the "I need you here" route. Marcus could be kind of pouty sometimes. Olinar (elfy-elf KE) drank from the Well, however, so he's got no room to talk.

[SentinelMacDeath]

If I had any real control over my Inquisitor I'd have him pack his stuff and move into a quaint little place in Minrathous, especially after disbanding everything. I can organize everything from there but there is no way I'd stay away from my LI for years on end if I don't have to. 

 

Bull gets the whole "prince saves the damsel in distress" thing too ... it ticked me off so bad because now it leaves me wondering if Dorian gets attacked when he romances the Inquisitor but nobody is there to help him? Can he defend himself since he's a really really strong mage? Does nothing happen? 

[TwixMix]

Hmm... the next game is most likely set in Tevinter, but at the end of trespasser it says that Inq sneaks into Minrathous to see Dorian. Does that mean his base of operations is still in Ferelden? Or... has he just not moved it to Tevinter yet? Thoughts on the next game's plot?

[LorenzEffect]

Was anyone else confused with the epilogue depiction of Dorian? It doesn't look like him.

[Hazegurl]

I think it's implied that Dorian was attacked while going to visit Bull alone. Considering the fact that Bull was a spy for the Qun, it's probably a good idea for him not to be walking the streets of Minrathous, not to mention the fact that it would be impossible for him to hide in plain sight. It's most likely straight up treason for Dorian to even be dating him, former member of the Qun or not.  With the IQ, there is no need for him to be on the outskirts like that for Dorian to go off risking his safety to see.  I would imagine that the reason the IQ remains out of sight while traveling is to not draw attention to himself while aiding Dorian in his endeavors. In other words, the IQ is smart enough to handle himself in a way that doesn't place Dorian's life at risk in such a  manner.

 

My IQ chose to not disband the Inquisition.  But I don't think he would go back to Fereldan/Orlais. It seems so obvious of a place to hide.  I think it would actually be smarter to secretly move the real base of operations somewhere entirely new like Nevarra or something while continuing to operate openly at Skyhold to funnel in Solas' and the Qun's spies. Nevarra isn't far from Tevinter either so it would make sense for my IQ to be in a position to travel there often and aid Dorian.

[TwixMix]

^So you mean the Inquisitor's base could be in Tevinter, and he'd still sneak around to aid/visit Dorian?

[Hazegurl]

^That could be a possibility as well. Though I'd be reluctant to pick Tevinter as a base of operations because of the Venatori zealots.  I don't know how long they'll be able to remain secret before the place is flooded with Tevinter spies.  Also, Dorian doesn't want the IQ doing all the work for him so setting up in Tevinter might be seen as stepping on his toes a bit?

[TwixMix]

It could be a different part of Tevinter. Like Minrathous is the Capitol and the Inquisition has tended to stay more hidden (i.e skyhold, haven) so they might take up a small place in a smaller city, whether you disband or not (although maybe that's where the "possible corruption" comes in). I would be surprised if they had the setting exactly the same as da:i. Besides quizzy stabbed the map lol maybe that's an issue that comes up in the next game? Dorian having mixed feelings with the inquisition snooping around his country lol but I mean the inquisition is like going to focus 90% on solas/the elves, 10% on actual tevinter. Tevinter is the least likely place to find ppl that solas "knows". I personally hope it is in Tevinter so there's more dorian...