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[Catilina]

^ Well, it actually is insensitive, yes. However, the very fact that Dorian admits to his own failing and ignorance about the issue is a point in his favor, I think.

 

I've never cared for the slavery conversation, and not because of what Dorian says, but because of the options given the player for response. Dorian approaches the issue from an intellectual level, but the Inquisitor's first round of responses, and most of the second round, are all based on emotion. You can't have a reasonable discussion with someone when they lash out at you.

I agree, except that I do not judge "insensitive" him, because he do not notice "the air". Yes, of course, insensitive, but it is not. This is just a human weakness – and perhaps self-defense mechanism.

[Witch Cocktor]

^ Well, it actually is insensitive, yes. However, the very fact that Dorian admits to his own failing and ignorance about the issue is a point in his favor, I think.

 

I've never cared for the slavery conversation, and not because of what Dorian says, but because of the options given the player for response. Dorian approaches the issue from an intellectual level, but the Inquisitor's first round of responses, and most of the second round, are all based on emotion. You can't have a reasonable discussion with someone when they lash out at you.

Exactly this. And I do not like how you can't, from the get go, understand where he is coming from and agree with what he says. Your only option is to shame him for his approach on slavery, even though the Inquisitor probably knows less about slaves in Tevinter than Dorian does, and THEN you can see sorta agree with him when he has schooled you on the subject. You can't even have a neutral response which kinda sucks.

[Witch Cocktor]

Where I was annoyed, but this was a fault of the writers not Dorian, is that he suggests that the Inquisitor has no idea more idea than he does of what it is really like to be poor. 

Wasn't this dialogue more about being a slave, not being poor?

[nightscrawl]

Exactly this. And I do not like how you can't, from the get go, understand where he is coming from and agree with what he says. Your only option is to shame him for his approach on slavery, even though the Inquisitor probably knows less about slaves in Tevinter than Dorian does, and THEN you can see sorta agree with him when he has schooled you on the subject. You can't even have a neutral response which kinda sucks.

 

Here is how I deal with it. This is RP based, of course, but it's how I get around the poor choices in the conversation.

 

For the first round I pick the "You don't question it?" option. My reasoning for this is that my guy is surprised that Dorian, who has a generally rebellious personality, does not question this aspect of Tevinter society. This is the same man who, in another dialogue regarding the male Divine, derides the fact of doing simply for the sake of tradition when he says, "Because that's how it's always been done. Excellent reasoning." So Dorian's response that slavery has just always been there, that it is what it is and "you don't question it" seems contrary to how my guy has come to view Dorian up until that point. And then in the following dialogue I do pick the "I see your point" response. Of course, this works out best if you're a Trevelyan, which my guy is.

[Gervaise]

He contrasts slavery with inescapable poverty.   He highlights how a slave might actually be better off than a poor peasant.   Then he says that he is not really in a position to comment on what it is like to be poor, which is true.     It is Dorian who makes the connection between the two things.

 

Actually the argument he puts forward is almost identical to the one used by Loghain to justify selling off the elves to Tevinter to fund his war.   Loghain says that conditions in the alienage are so bad they will probably be better off as slaves.   That really sealed his fate with my city elf, plus making sure that Alistair ruled alone because Anora claimed she had been running the country under Cailan, so if the conditions are bad she has the responsibility for it.  

 

Of course what the argument ignores is that for the majority of peasants (but not elves because they have to get special warrants to move around - or at least they did in Origins) they can simply leave the slums and no one will stop them.   If a slave runs away in Tevinter they send special slave hunters to bring them back and as Krem explains, because they are only paid for returned slaves, these hunters do not give up the pursuit easily.   

[nightscrawl]

I'd suggest we not get into a full discussion on the slavery issue. People have their views on it and I guarantee that no one will change anyone's mind.

[nightscrawl]

User
Does Dorian have a Middle Name?

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw
Not that's ever come up. He might, but it he does it's as of yet indeterminate.

[nightscrawl]

Happy Valentine's Day, Dorian thread.

 

Spoiler

Cocotingo on tumblr.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Happy Valentine's Day!!!

 

[Gervaise]

Nightscrawl: I'm sorry I can't answer you direct but I haven't had much success in that direction.   However, I know you come here pretty regularly.

 

About the query on the person able to graft spirit onto flesh, it is found in Until We Sleep (see Wiki)  Apparently Maevaris mentions there is  a rumour of either a Dalish or a Tevinter exile (or possibly both) living in the Anderfels who can do this.     Since Maevaris is connected to Dorian I can see her passing this information on as a potential way to restore the Inquisitor's arm.    I suppose there is also an outside possibility this could form a side-quest in the next game.  

[nightscrawl]

I found it, thanks Gervaise. Until We Sleep #3, p. 20/22
 

Spoiler

That said, I don't know if such a method would be applicable to restoring a limb. In any case, I certainly hope that such a choice would be left up to the player, particularly as there are likely to be some who play their PC as really anti-magic and wouldn't trust it.


At any rate... back to Dorian.

[Witch Cocktor]

Started playing a dwarf, and decided to romance Dorian. It's so gosh darn adorable! It has that '' beauty and the beast '' thing that I'm obsessed with.

 

Speaking of Dorian being a beauty, I went to talk with Scout Harding and asked her what's going on, and one time she replied with '' Dorian is awfully pretty, isn't he? ''

Well, I'm glad that this whole '' I am so beautiful '' thing isn't just in Dorian's head. Bull and Harding both aknowledge that he is quite the looker!

[nightscrawl]

I like the word "gorgeous" for him, and it is generally how I think of him. It's quite amusing because the first time I saw him he was quite unappealing. The picture on the DAI website is a poor one (lighting, angle, and so on), and I thought his facial hair was absurd. Then I finally met him in the game and became completely enamored. A good chunk of that is his personality, and getting to know him really altered my views on his appearance.

 

I'm not accusing you of this, but I don't think Dorian is actually as vain as many players make him out to be. I'd imagine that in Tevinter his appearance is nothing significant, particularly given the way he describes the altus emphasis on breeding -- "... perfect mind, perfect body, the perfect mage."

 

I don't argue that he doesn't know he's good looking, is also appreciative of his own appearance, and that good looks have power in and of themselves, but I don't think he believes they are actually important.

 

In my head-canon, and my fic writing, I very rarely have my Inquisitor acknowledge Dorian's attractiveness openly, even though he does think about it on a few occasions. Actually, now that I think of it, the first actual mention is after they've been together for quite a while, taking place sometime after Adamant, and is said in a somewhat playful manner.

 

Dorian has a lot of layers, and the false, expected (this is important) vanity is one of them. My Inquisitor knows this and tries not to play into those expectations.

 

 

Cassandra: You're not as handsome as you think, Dorian.

Dorian: I must be, or you wouldn't have been thinking about it all this time.

Cassandra: Anyone who claims it as often as you must be dreadfully concerned they're not.

Dorian: Look at this profile. Isn't it incredible? I picture it in marble.

 

I love this banter because his response is just so excessive that I can't think how anyone can take it seriously.

 

 

Again though, this is just a general observation, not directed at you specifically, Witch Cocktor.

[Witch Cocktor]

I sort of agree and sort of don't. But I think in the end, it's hard to really understand one's actions and their actual opinions when they are so snarky and sarcastic. Either they really feel that something is what they say or are just putting on an act. It's up to the player/consumer to judge him.

 

I don't think BW gave him enough material for one to say '' he is not vain, it's just an act, MOSTLY '' in my opinion. I think that's all headcanon.

 

With that said I liked this banter.

 

Vivienne: (Chuckles.) It's rather amusing, Dorian.

Dorian: Your outfit's enteraining, I'll give you that.

Vivienne: The way you sneer at "southerners," pretending to be a shark from a land of sharks.

Vivienne: But you are not a shark and never will be, darling. They knew it, just as you do.

Dorian: I could have pretended. Wore fancy clothes, convinced everyone I'm something I'm not.

Dorian: Then I could take a position at court, ****** myself out, and desperately hope no one realizes what a fraud I am.

Vivienne: Such snapping for a fish without teeth.

 

I think this could give some credence to what you are implying, that Dorian is just playing up to the expectations, but in the end, he isn't much like what he pretends to be, only a little. But even so, he seems to be very into this whole '' be yourself and do not pretend to be something you're not '' so it's pretty hard to really tell what kind of a person he really is.

 

Overall I'd need to know more of his childhood and background before I can make claims what Dorian is or isn't. It could be a defense mechanism or a false sense of self-importance and greatness that stems from being nobility and always having everything done for you and told how amazing and perfect you are everyday. But none of the options sound like Dorian, so I digress.

 

In the end, he is not in the Inquisition for his own gain and doesn't see the common folk as trash he can step all over and manipulate, even if he does have some pretty vain opinions sometimes and says vain things. 

[nightscrawl]

Ah yes, I forgot about that Vivienne dialogue. I never bring her along, so I had forgotten about it as I never see it in the game.

 

One factor I take into consideration are his insecurities. He doesn't expect anything from other people because he's cynical and has been disappointed by them, and he also makes self-disparaging remarks that appear to be a window into a low self-worth. The (non-banter) remarks by Cole are also quite significant. To me, one of the more heart-breaking and revelatory bits comes during the "after" dialogue when he says, "I've been the port in a storm before. I would understand." This is combined with his general attitude of surprise that the Inquisitor actually wants to be in a relationship with him, that is, move beyond sex.

 

But he does have certain aspects that he doesn't hide. He likes fashion, and sweets, and has an appreciation for the finer things. This is partly a result of his upbringing, and partly his own preference. Even though most of his environmental remarks are disdainful of, or complaining about, nature, he still has an occasional appreciative remark, such as, "I suppose this place does have a few sights to recommend it," when coming upon the pool at the heart of the Forbidden Oasis. So I think it's a combination of things, and nothing should be taken at face value.

 

I do think that, though it is sometimes difficult for him to communicate, he is pretty "real" during all of his dialogues with the Inquisitor.

 

When I said, "I don't think Dorian is actually as vain as many players make him out to be," I was mainly focusing on how some players are like Blackwall in their estimation of him. When you initially ask Blackwall about Dorian, he will say, "Dorian? He's arrogant. He preens himself. But you already know that. He doesn't even hide it." And his initial remarks to Dorian are full of assumptions based on his nobility. But Blackwall changes over time as he gets to know Dorian more. It's actually one of the more interesting dynamics you can watch develop over the course of the banter.

 

 

Erm... don't mind me. I really just relish any excuse to go on and on about this guy...

[Witch Cocktor]

I agree with you. He has multiple layers, that much is a fact. I mean, despite all his interest in finer things, hygiene and fashion, he DOES seem to get along fine enough with the '' common folk '' and '' common things '', whether it's playing Wicked Grace with them or drinking non-brand booze.

 

Speaking of Blackwall, I found it interesting that Sera and Dorian got along really well, despite Sera being even more-so anti-nobility/aristocracy than Blackwall (she is more louder about it anyway). Dorian and Blackwall had to jump through hurdles to get to anywhere where they can at least be civil with each other.

[Gervaise]

I think Dorian's many layered personality is one of the things I love about him.    It is also why I find the romance so rewarding because it does open up an aspect of Dorian that you only really see if you are in a relationship with him.   I am writing my own sequel to DAI at the moment and because Dorian is such a complex character it actually makes it easy to write dialogue for him that sounds authentic.    Mind you most of his conversations are coming via his crystal because I'm following the progress of my ex-Inquisitor, while Dorian is busy back in Tevinter.    Every so often they will manage to get together again, as the epilogue to Trespasser suggests.   It will be interesting to see if any of the ideas I introduce into my story actually end up in DA4.  It is purely for my own amusement; I just enjoy continuing the story of my PC.    I previously wrote two whole novels worth on my PC post Baldurs Gate.

[Sifr]

What's interesting is that Varric is probably the companion with the most in common with Dorian when you think about it.

 

Both enjoy snubbing their nose at expectations of what they are "supposed" to be, have a bit of a rebellious streak, had difficult relationships with their parents growing up, were born into nobility but dislike much of high society operates, and tend to put on a carefree veneer to mask their insecurities.

 

They even share the same hobbies, both enjoy being surrounded by literature, as well as drinking and playing cards at local taverns.

[AgeOfDragons]

I really loved Dorian. The thing is I am a female and like playing as female except when I want a different perspective. If they had made him bi I would have romanced him. I think they should bring some more Roman concepts into the new game with maybe an American like country that is big on free will and independence with Dorian involved because I LOVED him.

[AgeOfDragons]

He's also in the leaked companion survey art. But those are the only two pictures.

What leaked companion survey art?

[Julale]

Dorian is good as he is. I'm female too but I made a male human playthrough just to romance him- and it was great :-)

[nightscrawl]

What leaked companion survey art?

 
Welcome to the Dorian thread. You are responding to a post that is two years old from page two of this thread. At that time, he was still known as "Dramatic Hands Mustache Guy" from his pose in one of the concept art pics. It's great that you're wanting to go through the whole thread, but keep that in mind as you read any of the pre-release stuff.

[nightscrawl]

I really loved Dorian. The thing is I am a female and like playing as female except when I want a different perspective. If they had made him bi I would have romanced him. I think they should bring some more Roman concepts into the new game with maybe an American like country that is big on free will and independence with Dorian involved because I LOVED him.

I'm not going to discount your feelings on the matter or your desire to mainly play a female character. Until DAI, the female PC was my canon for both the DAO Warden and DA2 Hawke.

That said, the romance reveals a bit more about him that you don't get to see otherwise. Also, his homosexuality, and various issues with that, factors into the start of the romance and his issues with relationships. It is a part of him and woven into the fabric of the romance. I don't say that the issue encompasses everything, because it does not, but it IS a factor.

If you really like Dorian as a character, I do encourage you to make a male character to experience the romance as it was written. All of the romances have their own unique flavor, and his has an element of angst and sweetness, and you get to see him evolve during the course of it.


And honestly, America can be pretty puritanical when it comes to such things. We only recently (July 2015) got nation-wide same-sex marriage, when our brothers and sisters to the north, Canada, have had it since 2005 (the fourth world-wide). There are still states who are stubbornly fighting to keep (that is, prevent) anti-discrimination laws from being codified into their state's laws. I do NOT want to see a country like America in a Dragon Age game. I say this as an American.

In the Dragon Age universe, the Rome analogue is actually Tevinter.

 

In ancient Rome, same-sex sexual activity was somewhat accepted but mostly only if the male was the giving partner in penetrative sex; the receiving partner was looked down on (not perceived as masculine) and persecuted. "Roman men were free to enjoy sex with other males without a perceived loss of masculinity or social status, as long as they took the dominant or penetrative role." [Wikipedia]

 

Let's not hold up Rome as some shining example of same-sex tolerance. It was a similar scene in ancient Greece, where "the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth." [Wikipedia]

 

These are toxic views that still permeate societal views of gay men, including in America.

 

 

I don't say the above to make you feel unwelcome in the Dorian thread, or attack you as a female Dorian fan; I am one myself. Similarly, the only woman I would have romanced in DAI as a female PC was Cassandra, but she was straight and not available to me in that case. My male PC is reserved for Dorian.

 

I certainly wouldn't say, "No," to a bisexual Dorian-like character in a future DA game, but not Dorian himself. He is gay and should remain so, just as Cassandra is straight and should remain so.

[Catilina]

The total acceptance was not typical, but rather bound to the orgies and privacy, and was not part of the "moral" civilian life. Already as I know.

[AgeOfDragons]

I'm not saying anything is wrong with Dorian. I am saying a country like America because of the many different cultures here. I am fine with having a Dorian like character that has its own twist. I don't want Dorian tO change. The thing is I take my beliefs that I follow everyday as a Christian into the game so even though I respect same sex relationships I do not have a same sex relationship in the games.