22163 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

22,000!!!

I mean... Dorian rules, everybody is beautiful and sorry for pushing the ongoing debate into the previous page.

I do have a question, though. What is the point of allowing flirt options with characters that aren't available? That just leads to the awkward "Sorry, that isn't my thing" conversation.

[nightscrawl]

22,000!!!

I mean... Dorian rules, everybody is beautiful and sorry for pushing the ongoing debate into the previous page.

I do have a question, though. What is the point of allowing flirt options with characters that aren't available? That just leads to the awkward "Sorry, that isn't my thing" conversation.

 

For realism? I happen to like that aspect of it, even if I rarely take such options myself. I only flirt with those I intend to romance, based primarily on meta information. It just so happens that, based on my particular play history, that I already knew the romance options in DAO; I didn't romance anyone on the first play, so I had the meta knowledge on the second. For DA2, I ended up flirting and sleeping with Fenris, but then went over to Anders; in subsequent plays I just stuck with one person. For DAI, I already knew all of the LIs and their orientations going into the game, so again I only flirted with the one I was interested in. However, with DA4 I plan to go into the game blind. If I like someone and get rejected, then so be it.

 

I think it's perfectly fine as long as the NPC does it in a nice way, as does happen with the ones in DAI.

 

I find it odd that you should ask this question in the Dorian thread, since the female Inquisitor finds out in a really different way to the standard flirt + rejection type, as with a male + Cullen, for example.

 

I think they should ALL have flirts and rejections, but sadly that is not the case. A male can't flirt with Blackwall or Solas at all.

[nightscrawl]

Since we haven't had art in a really long time, I thought I'd post this. This was done when Dorian was still known as Dramatic Hands Mustache Guy, so the concept art and other promotional material is all we had to go on. Dorian is only just a bit of this piece, but I did like his presence in it.

 

Spoiler

From ymirr-art-blog on Tumblr.

 

 

Heh, when I reblogged this I said, "It looks like Dramatic Hands Mustache Guy feels bad that they killed it… Oddly, I’m reminded of The Doctor, who when going against some really scary alien monster thing, still feels bad about killing it."

 

Honestly, now knowing Dorian, I'm not sure if he would feel bad, or not. He never expresses any great love or appreciation for dragons, but neither do we really get any sense that he enjoys needless killing.

 

 

I am going through my Tumblr to organize things, so I will be posting some more art. Most of it has likely been posted in the thread already, but it can't hurt to see some of it again.

[Arlee]

And that I tried in the conversation afterwards telling him "I think you're trouble" which was completely awful. The Inquisitor sounds so hostile and Dorian just looks so upset and quiet and says it's not an uncommon thing and he's sure others will also say the same (and even after that and telling him to listen to what his father had to say he still was happy to start a romance!). But I haven't tried the "I thought it was entertaining" line. The bottom line is usually worst in this kind of thing but I can't imagine how something shortened to "I thought your big scene with your father where we find out he tried to change you using blood magic because you're gay was super entertaining" would be better than "You're trouble." Even though, hello, you brought the meeting to his attention and agreed to go and you only had to be there for the meeting for three minutes anyway. 

 

I always pick the "I think you're Brave" option. It just seems the overall best response there and Dorian seems so happy when you say it. Every other response there just feels really off to me.

 

I do have a question, though. What is the point of allowing flirt options with characters that aren't available? That just leads to the awkward "Sorry, that isn't my thing" conversation.

 

I think there should be options for flirting with everyone if you want regardless if it is any option or not. Flirting can be fun and doesn't have to lead to anything, can just be fun. Sure it can be a let down if you think it'll go somewhere but it doesn't but it also isn't a huge deal.

 

Honestly, now knowing Dorian, I'm not sure if he would feel bad, or not. He never expresses any great love or appreciation for dragons, but neither do we really get any sense that he enjoys needless killing.

 

Hmm, I could of sworn he mentions something somewhere about not liking to kill dragons in general... not sure where that came from though. I definitly got the impression somewhere he'd rather not kill Dragons. I'll have to think about that for a bit.

[nightscrawl]

I always pick the "I think you're Brave" option. It just seems the overall best response there and Dorian seems so happy when you say it. Every other response there just feels really off to me.

I still want to give him a hug, dammit.
 

Hmm, I could of sworn he mentions something somewhere about not liking to kill dragons in general... not sure where that came from though. I definitly got the impression somewhere he'd rather not kill Dragons. I'll have to think about that for a bit.

 
Haha... it could just be about having to fight them; that's just a barrel of laughs.

 

"Oh look--a dragon. What a perfect way to ruin our day."

[Arlee]

I still want to give him a hug, dammit.
 

 
Haha... it could just be about having to fight them; that's just a barrel of laughs.

 

"Oh look--a dragon. What a perfect way to ruin our day."

 

Agreed on all points We should definitely have the option say whatever and then give him a hug... could you imagine the look on his face if that happened? It would be priceless

[Gervaise]

What was really interesting was the response of Dorian after Giselle if you haven't been exclusively flirting with him and in fact have been also flirting with a woman.   In my case, it was my Cassandra play through.    I really had to be strict with myself to see this through because I was very tempted to simply go with Dorian again.   So after the meeting with his father, I told him he was very brave.    Good friendship feels between us.    Then come Giselle's accusations.   So after she leaves, Dorian says his usual bit about how you may not be aware but.....    Then I got a different set of options, so instead of being able to say  that isn't such a bad idea, instead I got "I wonder who started the rumours?"   Then Dorian responded: "Don't look at me; if I'd started the rumours they'd be a more juicy."  (I paraphrase).     The thing was I still had the option of taking the romance to the next stage with him but I avoided it.   Then I went through the whole candles, flowers and poetry arc with Cassandra, with Dorian travelling around with me to do the shopping and the lovely part was, he was so supportive about me getting together with Cassandra.   It's why I feel he is such a good friend whether you are a guy or a girl but particularly if you have flirted with him.    It's odd, but my Josie romance was totally straight and didn't flirt with Dorian at all and I didn't get the teasing banter I got with my flirtatious guy, so it seemed that he clearly enjoyed being flirted with, even if it didn't go anywhere.    The Cassandra romance was the one where I dubbed us the 3 Musketeers because of the constant banter that was going on between the three of them and I felt my guy was as close to Dorian as he could be without having sex.

[nightscrawl]

So, Dorian thread, I know this is goofy, but bear with me. I've modded the book Dorian is reading in the post-Mythal scene. My initial mod was to fix the default book, but my main purpose was to give Dorian something else to read. Now, there is certainly nothing at all wrong with him reading Hard in Hightown, but I think it would be fun if he were reading something more scholarly. My problem is that I can't decide what that should be, so I come asking for suggestions.
 
There is the full codex from all three games, available for browsing here. I also have both volumes of WoT, so feel free to suggest something from there as well.

 

 

[edit]

While I had initially thought to use something about magic, I am now also considering something about elves as well, particularly as the cutscene happens post-Mythal and we know that the issue is on his mind. Perhaps something like Arlathan: Part One, or Two (I can't put it all in there).

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 juin 2016 - 05:34 .

[Reznore57]

About the book , I remember Solas asked for a list of books from Josephine : http://dragonage.wik...ces_on_the_Fade

 

I imagine Dorian might be interested in some of them , besides they weren't in Skyhold library , and you can imagine after the temple , he went to talk with Solas about some of the revelation he learned.

Solas would probably tell him to go away and Dorian would steal borrow a book just to have the last word ...well in a manner of speaking anyway.

 

A funny thing , one of the book is called : Elvehan Diis Falsis: Triew Metod Dracas

 

And in DA2 there was an unused codex left in the files , it was a text from Arl Foreshadow.Arl Foreshadow is a tease ,hinting at what might happen in the next game , here's the codex from DAO:http://dragonage.wik..._Arl_Foreshadow

 

And here's the lost codex from DA2:

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Notes of Arl Foreshadow:
Readings for endless days by the coming fire:
Elvehan Diis Falsis: Triew Metod Dracas
Transitional Tevinter. Interesting.
Perforation Theory: Walking the Dream Worrying. Good walls make good neighbors. Also, parapets.
Of Locks and Lineage: If Right was Wrong “Whoops” indeed.
The Qun - Popular. Get one before they're gone.
Timely Talking: The Art of the Reveal-Irrelevant. Some take steps by two, and speak as such.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Not sure what Transitional Tevinter is supposed to mean , but hey Dorian would be reading an obscure easter eggish Tevinter book even Solas wanted to read for reasons!

[nightscrawl]

^ Thanks for the response!

 

I am mainly looking for existing things that have actual text, which is why I suggested codex entries. While those books on the lists are an interesting idea, I am not comfortable with fabricating text for the interior of the book.

 

Spoiler

[Gervaise]

I've got just the book for you.   It is the book of poetry that you get to read to Cassandra.   It was meant to have been part of a consignment that had been stolen from the dwarf merchant, so clearly there was a choice.   I always imagined that Dorian was the one who gave the recommendation since Cassandra says she thought the book had been banned and my elf would have had no idea what constituted suitable romantic poetry in the human world.   It seems to me it clearly had to be from Tevinter because the title is "Carmenum di Amatus".    The poem that the Inquisitor reads to Cassandra is:

 

"On aching branch do blossoms grow, the wind a hallowed breath,

It carries the scent of honeysuckle, sweet as the lover's kiss.

It brings the promise of more tomorrows of sighs and whispered bliss.

His lips on mine speak words not voiced, a prayer,

Which travels down my spine like flames that shatter night

His eyes reflect the heaven's stars, the Maker's light

My body opens, filled and blessed, my spirit there

Not merely housed in flesh, but brought to life."

 

You will notice that this poem is actually addressed to a male lover and in fact after the third line Cassandra takes the book from you to say the bit about "His lips" because of course otherwise it would have seemed a bit odd the Inquisitor seemingly delivering those lines to Cassandra.  Instead it becomes Cassandra expressing her sentiments about the Inquisitor.    Could they not equally apply to Dorian's thoughts about his male lover?  

 

Now for all his mocking of our sentimental Inquisitor, Dorian is a secret romantic at heart.   After all, he tried reading Swords and Shields but Varric's awful romance was too much for him.   Is it not possible that in his struggle between his longing to return to Tevinter to save his country and his desire to stay with the man he loves, he might be drawn to read some love poetry?    At least it is some genuine text from Thedas and after all, the one given is probably muted compared with some of the others in the book, considering it is banned by the Chantry and I'm sure that is not just because its author is clearly from Tevinter.

 

As for how Dorian came by the book in the world state where Cassandra has not been romanced by the Inquisitor, well Dorian says he spent some time camping out in the Hinterlands after he arrived in the south and that is where we find the chest of books that were stolen, so in that version of the story, Dorian sees the chest and helps himself to some of the books and leaves them hidden somewhere in Redcliffe, from where he recovers them later after we have moved to Skyhold.   Alternatively he returned the consignment to the merchant, who offered him one as thanks and Dorian chose Carmenum di Amatus.

[Sarah1281]

I keep telling myself one day I'm going to side with the templars just to see that quest (even if the time travel quest is just so amazing, I'm sure the templar quest must be equally cool because they're the two options you can go for and if one is just so much better than the other there's little point making two options. And since you have to deal with the civil war because in the future you hear Celene died and ruined everything, I'm curious how you find out about that in the templar route) but honestly I think Dorian is ensuring that's never going to happen for me. 

 

It's not just missing out on seeing him in the quest. I've seen some of the differences in his conversations on youtube. He goes all the way down there to try and figure out what's happening and help Felix and stop his mentor from ruining everything for everyone and confirming all the things they both hated about public perception of Tevinter. And he just fails so utterly. Alexius is killed by the Venatori either because he does what they want or because what they want is literally impossible (why, even? Do other Venatori members get so murdered? Or do they know he's not a believer and suspect he may get off the wagon when they go too far? Was it because they intended to murder Felix?). Who even knows what happened to Felix. Probably killed for helping him and that guilt has got to weigh on him. And he never got to go back home and all that time and effort he and Alexius put into saving him and he doesn't even die of blight sickness. In the end, in trying to save him, Alexius gets his son killed. And Dorian was right there, in Redcliffe, and he couldn't do anything. He didn't even know for sure. All he could do was escape, wounded,and try to minimize the damage. Somehow I think he cares more about this than Cole does about the fact that he wasn't able to help these people but now he's going to help more in the Inquisition and, especially while still a spirit, he can move on from it better. 

 

Dorian is so much more straightforward about how Felix was better than him if you let Felix die alone and anonymously in Redcliffe. You have to kind of press him on it if Felix died in his home under the best circumstances that could be expected after speaking to the Magisterium about the Inquisitor and implying approval of Dorian's choice to stay. And it just reminds me of that post I saw once about how Dorian says you never met Felix even if you do, in fact, get his note but never go to the Chantry. It's probably just the game developers not imagining anyone would go to Redcliffe to get the mages and get a mysterious note to meet up secretly under Alexius' nose and not go but in-game it probably means that Felix was trying to make it easier for Dorian. The Inquisitor clearly saw their need and abandoned them but Dorian was going to have to survive and work with the Inquisition anyway and this leaving without so much as taking a simple meeting meant it was going to be incredibly uphill work, never mind Tevinter's reputation and the Venatori being Tevinter, would take an already difficult plan and make it that much harder? He doesn't have the choice to keep it from Dorian if the Inquisitor shows up and meets Dorian then leaves the mages to their fate while he goes to recruit templars but if the Inquisitor just leaves he doesn't have to share that information. 

 

Dorian expected Felix to die of the Blight years ago and letting him go home and speak for them, being as good as his word once again and getting to share his memories with someone who knew and was helped by Felix, is about as good a death as he could get for him. They succeeded, somewhat, in their plans and he gets to be proud. I'm always taken aback by how surprised Felix is that Alexius is doing all of this to save him. I mean, I can see how working with a cult to destroy the world with a weird darkspawn thing doesn't scream saving a life but if he doesn't know that means Dorian hasn't worked it out either (he did have that letter telling his friend who didn't want to go with him south that Alexius clearly didn't believe anything he was saying but wasn't telling anyone the real reason, possibly because he knew they'd try and talk him out of it and he didn't want to hear it or he didn't want Felix feeling guilty what he was doing to save him) and what was Alexius' obsession since Felix got sick? Alexius just...never told him? The pair of them just honestly thought Alexius had completely lost it in his grief and wanted to burn everything? I can just imagine how they both took the news. 

 

He refuses to ask for mercy for Alexius because he probably doesn't deserve it but he can accept his execution (much better than I can, actually. He's just so defeated and over everything unless you say you're going to kill him "again" and his head just shoots up and he desperately asks what do you mean again and did the spell work not like it matters now because Felix is dead or close to it and did no one really tell him? I don't even know if he gets an answer because it cuts right to the execution). He clearly doesn't take news of him being Tranquil well but that's the biggest monster move you can make there and he moves right along. He sees the justice in letting the mages take vengeance on him but he really appreciates it if you let him try to salvage whatever he has left and research for the Inquisition. Really made me feel good about that decision. 

 

So much good emotional stuff and minimizing the pain for Dorian and if I go investigate the templars (well, I could go see what's going on briefly but I wouldn't be able to help and I'd know what I was condemning them too so I haven't even gone to see them) he gets none of that. Everything he tried to do failed and now he's just trying to join the Inquisition to see if he can do anything useful on his trip. I just don't have the heart to do that to him. 

[nightscrawl]

^ I'm sure Gervaise will comment at length because I know he goes with the templars.

 

However, I will say that the mage path is my canon choice and I never have finished a templar play, even though I did go through with the mission on one occasion. I really need to one of these days to see the full ramifications and meet Calpernia.

 

Unfortunately for me, the great barrier is that the IHW path is all bound up with the romance for me. You really get to see all facets of Dorian's personality: his magical brilliance and intelligence, his determination, his humor in the face of danger, his loyalty, his compassion; it's wonderful and is what really made my Inquisitor interested in him as a person. Also, they are the only two who went through that ordeal, the only two in all of Thedas who traveled through time, the only two who saw that terrible future and the true consequence of the inquisition's (and Inquisitor's) failure. Something like that brings a closeness and understanding that they won't have with anyone else.

 

I just can't let go of that, so I go with IHW every time.

[Gervaise]

I feel that both paths are equally valid.   I'd have been happier with the mages run if it hadn't involved time travel because the more I think about it, the less sense it makes and the more I feel that magic is heading away from something that most mages could achieve with natural talent and a bit of training, to awesome amazing stuff that only certain people can do and only if they have the right magical bauble (anchor for opening and closing rifts, amulet for travelling through time).   I did do Hushed Whispers my first run but funnily enough that was only because Champions of the Just bugged out on me.    That run was with my Solas romance and I have to admit that after travelling through time with Dorian my girl was absolutely smitten on him, so if he hadn't been gay she would have been saved from the heartbreak of Solas.    As it turned out they just ended up really good friends and I like to think that having Dorian's support is what gets her through a very difficult time both after the main game and then later after Trespasser.   I have also played through my canon Inquisitor, hunter Lavellan who romances Dorian, on both paths just to see how it went.

 

The reason I settled on the Champions of the Just as my canon run is largely for role playing reasons.   You see I do travel to Redcliffe to talk with the mages because my lad is sympathetic to their predicament.   Then he gets informed by Fiona that she has signed up her entire group to indentured servitude with Tevinter and he is absolutely appalled.   You have to remember that the mantra of the Dalish is "we are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit".   So far as he is concerned the Dalish would rather die than be enslaved again and he can't understand why the rebel mages do not feel the same.    Then Fiona seems to be acting oddly, like someone might be trying to control her mind, so naturally he begins to wonder what is going on here and could blood magic be involved?    He goes to the Chantry and meets Dorian, another Tevinter mage.   In the general scheme of things his world view is humans bad, Chantry worse, Tevinter the depths of hell (there is a reason you won't find any Dalish in Tevinter).   So whilst Dorian seems friendly enough, he is intensely suspicious of him; how does he know that Dorian and Felix aren't working against Alexius for their own ends?    Neither Vivienne or Solas, who he took with him for the magical expertise, seems to hold much store by Dorian claiming that it is all down to time magic and as he is not a mage himself, he really looks to them for guidance on such issues.    However, his mother was the Keeper of their clan and she used to share a lot of knowledge with him about arcane matters and he is pretty sure she never mentioned even the ancient elves being able to do such things.    So the whole thing seems very fishy and he feels totally out of his depth.   Then whilst poking around Redcliffe after the meeting, he finds the shed with the tranquil skulls and that just settles it for him.   Whatever is going on here it is evil, there is no way he is doing deals with Alexius and he certainly isn't stupid enough to walk into his lair in the castle, where Alexius has literally hundreds of mages at his command, without some magic negating back up.   He knows from bitter experience that Templars are rather good at this but he decides to put his own personal prejudices behind him and ask them for help in sealing the Breach, after which they can help him deal with the Venatori in Redcliffe.

 

So off we go to Therinfall and it is like out of the frying pan, into the fire.    However, it does give you a really good perspective on Cole and a much better reason for trusting him, since he literally saves you from possession, than him simply turning up at your gate having never met him before.    The Fade part is more believable and in keeping with the lore, since it is all taking place in your mind.   So having successfully overcome an attempt at possession and then killed the demon, he conscripts the Templars, effectively disbanding their order, because so far as he is concerned it is beyond fixing and as a Dalish he isn't crying any tears over its loss.    Everyone seems mad at him but he doesn't care because he thinks it was the right call.   They close the Breach and then Corypheus attacks with his mages.

 

I have to admit I feel that Corypheus at the head of a mage army makes a lot more sense than at the head of a Templar one.   Calpurnia is a much more interesting lieutenant than Samson and the sub-plot with her is far more revealing about Corypheus.   With CoJ you don't get forewarning of the potential demon army and you only know about the danger to Celene because of the envy demon's obsession with her, plus Cole filling you in on the fact that the demon and the Elder One want her dead.   The future you see is in the Fade and what will happen if the demon takes over your identity.   It also gives an idea of how terrifying the Inquisition could become with a fanatical leader at its head claiming justification for their actions in religious faith.

 

However, the main reason I like this path is the different side it shows to Dorian.   With Hushed Whispers everything really goes to plan for him and the whole way it is just Dorian being awesome.     With Champions of the Just, particularly if you do go to Redcliffe and then effectively reject him, it shows his truly noble character.    He runs ahead of the mage army and arrives literally on his knees with exhaustion in order to warn the very people who didn't want his help.   He has lost everything; his fancy clothes are gone and the staff he had in Redcliffe.   I assume he probably had to sell them in order to have sufficient funds to stay alive.   All he has is a basic staff he probably knocked up for himself from a branch he found in the Hinterlands.   Having delivered his message he stays to help.  In particular he is dealing with the wounded, so likely getting covered with dirt and blood but he gets stuck in and assists Roderick,back to the Chantry.   There he shows his bravery in standing up to Cullen.    Cullen wants to pull down the mountainside on everyone, just to get a bit of dying revenge on Corypheus.   Dorian is not having any of it and tells him so "You think like a blood mage".   Roderick then comes up with his plan and Dorian helps him to see it through.    It is witnessing these things that makes my lad realise that he made a huge mistake in mistrusting Dorian simply because he was from Tevinter.    He drops his prejudices and starts viewing him as simply a person.   This sets the groundwork from which the later romance will develop.

 

He has to work at the romance a lot harder than if you do Hushed Whisper, particularly if you ally with the mages, because you start from a much lower approval point with Dorian.   He makes some very pointed remarks about how he would like to have been able to stop Alexius himself, which indicate a certain bitterness towards my lad.   Still by this point my Lavellan feels that perhaps he deserves it, so he doesn't hold that against Dorian.   He feels guilty when Dorian can't find out what happened to Felix and suspects the Venatori may have killed him for working with Dorian against them.   (Actually I think Alexius tinkered with time once too often and removed them both from it; Dorian says how it is as though they never existed).  He is also coming to realise that he is rather attracted towards Dorian but that makes him feel awkward and apprehensive because of the cultural stigma against having any sort of relations with humans, let alone a Tevinter man.   He knows that if he got into a relationship with Dorian it would be for life, because that is the way the Dalish do things, but also it would likely attract condemnation, if not from his own clan, then certainly from the wider Dalish community.     Then we have the episode with Dorian's father and he realises how much they have in common.    When he tells Dorian he thinks he is really brave for walking his own path, it is because it was the same for him.    He refused to take a female partner because he thought it was dishonest and unfair to her to do so, even though there is a lot of pressure on the young to get married and have kids.     He has spent his life alone and then suddenly it seems that may no longer have to be the case.     Giselle is a big help moving things along because her criticism really gets his back up and so he encourages Dorian into giving him a surprise kiss.    When it comes to the Birthright amulet, he feels he owes it to Dorian to get it back because of his early mistrust and likely Dorian had to sell it along with his other gear, even if Dorian later admits that is not exactly the case.    From that point onwards I would say they are utterly devoted to  one another.

 

So you see, doing the Champions of the Just seemed to me to fit better with his Dalish background and overall I felt it gave a lot more depth to both Dorian's character and the relationship itself because we had to overcome so much more before we finally fell in love with one another.  

[Sarah1281]

That's really interesting. When I played the first time I went to the mages because the game might have presented going to the mages or templars as equally valid options for closing the breach but I still don't quite get what the templars are supposed to do that is equally helpful to the mages in closing the breach. Fiona seemed to have it together so going to her first would be easier while the templars clearly didn't want anything to do with the Inquisition. But that also meant if you were planning on going to see both of them (and if Corypheus hadn't claimed whichever one you didn't go see I totally would have tried to ally with both because don't tell me you have to choose a side) the templars might be a bit more urgent. 

 

It's truly remarkable that Dorian can lose everything again and be turned down and STILL show up to help and save everyone minutes ahead of a whole freaking army. It truly puts his "I'm here because it's the right thing to do" thing in perspective. He WILL help no matter what and nothing short of being punched and thrown out will change his mind even if you do not make a single choice he agrees with. I just can't stand to make it harder for him. Has anything good even happened to him before you meet him since Felix got the Blight? 

 

He definitely does sound more in control and confident and smooth, making little jokes, when you work with him to let his plans work out like he wanted them to (though, not for nothing, if the entire Ferelden army shows up within five minutes of you showing up to talk to Alexius that second time and you somehow didn't notice, how does not choosing the mages lead to Corypheus taking them over? Is there some mention of Alexius, not being psychologically broken by the amulet not working and Felix being fatalistic, managing to get the mages to get rid of them? What kind of binding contract did they sign that forces them to all actually listen to Alexius? Word of honor? At some point Fiona realized it was a terrible idea yet she still goes along with it) than when this is literally the end of his rope. Even his best case scenio in Redcliffe doesn't end all that great but it's something and he actually accomplished something and he knows how vital he was when he saved you twice with the time magic. 

 

I do see how once you find out about Alexius and the Venatori you have two options: 
1) Well the templars can't possibly be this messed up (and supposedly will actually be useful)

2) I can't just leave all the mages under the control of a Tevinter cult (and why hasn't Fiona betrayed them yet instead of just looking uneasy and timid and telling him he can't do things he can damn well do if she doesn't feel like going back on her word)

 

I don't mind things like the time magic because we can't have every mage capable of ripping apart time or it doesn't make sense why they wouldn't use it or why the world hasn't ended by now. It can't just be blood magic because we've seen enough of that. And it makes sense to me that a place like Tevinter that celebrates and obsesses over magic and researches new applications should be able to do far more than Circle mages who are watched and suspected and all have to have a demon put inside of them and killed if it's not immediately clear they aren't possessed. That kind of environment has GOT to be stifling for creativity and knowledge. It seems inevitable that mages would come up with artifacts to let them do things mages without artifacts can't do. It's another form of having a staff or the Litany of Adralla or Eluvians or whatnot. And tying time travel to the Breach can both introduce the possibility while also explaining why it can't be used to go back and fix things because there will always be people like Alexius who hear their negativity about "destroying the world" but will counter with trying to do it anyway. 

 

I wonder what happens with Dorian's amulet if you're not involved and don't get the quest. I hope the answer isn't "Leliana doesn't think you'll care if you're only a friend and he never sees it again because God knows he won't ask you for help" but Ponchard, not believing presumably less strong rumors about you being intimate that appear regardless of romance, decides to just sell it to him for a ton of money or Dorian thinks of something else since he doesn't think Dorian's actual non-romantic friend would bother to help a guy out over it. 

[nightscrawl]

I wonder what happens with Dorian's amulet if you're not involved and don't get the quest. I hope the answer isn't "Leliana doesn't think you'll care if you're only a friend and he never sees it again because God knows he won't ask you for help" but Ponchard, not believing presumably less strong rumors about you being intimate that appear regardless of romance, decides to just sell it to him for a ton of money or Dorian thinks of something else since he doesn't think Dorian's actual non-romantic friend would bother to help a guy out over it.

Not what you want to hear, but I'm of the mind that, if you're not involved that he doesn't get it back. Ponchard is perfectly clear and what he wants is something only the Inquisitor can give: influence. It's not about money. Dorian does not have, and will never have the influence that Ponchard requires to make him a member of the exclusive merchants' group. There is no way that Dorian ever can get it back on his own, and moreover, he would likely still have the same concerns that he has even if you're not involved, for exactly the same reasons.

 

In regard to Leliana, you could argue that once the romance is underway that she has observed the closeness and that is why she brings the concern to the Inquisitor. But without that observation of closeness, once her initial suspicion is assuaged she has no reason to meddle in someone's affairs. It seems like the only reason she does so is out of consideration for the Inquisitor and his affection for Dorian.

 

The ONLY way I can see him getting it back would be if he were to go to Leliana or Josephine and ask them for help, which would essentially amount to the same result as the Inquisitor threatening Ponchard himself. But we know Dorian isn't going to do that -- "I don't want someone solving my personal problems for me."

[Gervaise]

What happens to Dorian's amulet if you are just a friend is one of the things that bothers me as well.   It is why I find it hard to understand why it is tied to the romance.   Surely it is something you would do for him as a friend?  Surely Ponchard would have heard if you are good friends with Dorian.    Although there is a suggestion that Ponchard thinks you are already more than good friends when you meet him.     

 

There was a similar thing in DA2.   We give a book to Fenris and he seems rather muted in his response, before he reveals that he doesn't know how to read.   However, you can only offer to teach him if you are in a romance with him.   If not, you are actually given rather churlish responses to his revelation because he doesn't immediately gush with thanks over your gift, which does not seem like the response a friend would make.     Mind you this is after you have committed to his romance, not leading up to it.

 

I suppose you have to assume that Ponchard only attempts to coerce Dorian into using his influence on the Inquisitor because he does assume there is something intimate going on between them and if he does realise you are only friends, then he resigns himself to just accepting money from Dorian in order to return it.   It doesn't really fit with what he says in the Birthright quest but then if you are not in a romance, you don't know what he said.  

 

I assume that Dorian has to get the amulet back to take up his position in the Magisterium but even if not, may be once he has that sort of clout, he can intimidate Ponchard into returning his amulet, even though Dorian doesn't like doing that sort of thing.   I can't remember clearly but do you only see the amulet in Dorian's romance tarot card?   The amulet seems like a sort of family seal thing.   Dorian let it go because he thought he had put all that behind him and he didn't want it any more.   Then his father noticed it was missing and he realised it was a connection with his beloved homeland that he had rather rashly relinquished.    However, the fact that Ponchard realised its significance would suggest that is something that would cause further scandal if it was discovered he had allowed it to fall into the hands of a southern merchant.   This might not have bothered Dorian before the advent of the Lucerni but now he was fully committed to reforming his homeland, I'd have thought that the amulet would be something that he'd want to recover.

[Melbella]

There was a similar thing in DA2.   We give a book to Fenris and he seems rather muted in his response, before he reveals that he doesn't know how to read.   However, you can only offer to teach him if you are in a romance with him.   If not, you are actually given rather churlish responses to his revelation because he doesn't immediately gush with thanks over your gift, which does not seem like the response a friend would make.     Mind you this is after you have committed to his romance, not leading up to it.

 

I don't believe this to be true. Granted, offering to teach him to read is a heart option, but is available whether you romance him or not. I accidentally didn't romance him in my last game, and it was there.

[nightscrawl]

What happens to Dorian's amulet if you are just a friend is one of the things that bothers me as well.   It is why I find it hard to understand why it is tied to the romance.   Surely it is something you would do for him as a friend?  Surely Ponchard would have heard if you are good friends with Dorian.    Although there is a suggestion that Ponchard thinks you are already more than good friends when you meet him.     

 

There was a similar thing in DA2.   We give a book to Fenris and he seems rather muted in his response, before he reveals that he doesn't know how to read.   However, you can only offer to teach him if you are in a romance with him.   If not, you are actually given rather churlish responses to his revelation because he doesn't immediately gush with thanks over your gift, which does not seem like the response a friend would make.     Mind you this is after you have committed to his romance, not leading up to it.

 

I suppose you have to assume that Ponchard only attempts to coerce Dorian into using his influence on the Inquisitor because he does assume there is something intimate going on between them and if he does realise you are only friends, then he resigns himself to just accepting money from Dorian in order to return it.   It doesn't really fit with what he says in the Birthright quest but then if you are not in a romance, you don't know what he said.  

 

I assume that Dorian has to get the amulet back to take up his position in the Magisterium but even if not, may be once he has that sort of clout, he can intimidate Ponchard into returning his amulet, even though Dorian doesn't like doing that sort of thing.   I can't remember clearly but do you only see the amulet in Dorian's romance tarot card?   The amulet seems like a sort of family seal thing.   Dorian let it go because he thought he had put all that behind him and he didn't want it any more.   Then his father noticed it was missing and he realised it was a connection with his beloved homeland that he had rather rashly relinquished.    However, the fact that Ponchard realised its significance would suggest that is something that would cause further scandal if it was discovered he had allowed it to fall into the hands of a southern merchant.   This might not have bothered Dorian before the advent of the Lucerni but now he was fully committed to reforming his homeland, I'd have thought that the amulet would be something that he'd want to recover.

 

Meh, we each have our own headcanons around it.

 

At any rate, yes, it IS on the tarot card. BUT I am not inclined to just accept that that is what the amulet actually looks like, primarily because it is the same snake design that is so very common in much of the Tevinter imagery and not really unique in the way of family crests.

 

That said, I have used this imagery in my fic writing because there is nothing else to go on.

 

Spoiler

[nightscrawl]

I don't believe this to be true. Granted, offering to teach him to read is a heart option, but is available whether you romance him or not. I accidentally didn't romance him in my last game, and it was there.

 

Yepper, you are correct. His reaction is different for friend or rival, but you can offer either way. However, his reaction in rival makes it seem like he doesn't accept, so I have wondered about that. Fenris is so damn prickly.

[Xilizhra]

There was a similar thing in DA2.   We give a book to Fenris and he seems rather muted in his response, before he reveals that he doesn't know how to read.   However, you can only offer to teach him if you are in a romance with him.   If not, you are actually given rather churlish responses to his revelation because he doesn't immediately gush with thanks over your gift, which does not seem like the response a friend would make.     Mind you this is after you have committed to his romance, not leading up to it.

Actually, you can offer to teach him even if you're locked into a romance with someone else, it's just still labeled as a flirt option. You can also give him the book at any time in Act 2 that you find it, and since it's just lying around the Alienage at night, that can be at the beginning.

[Gervaise]

There is a lot of dragon imagery in Tevinter artwork but it is noticeable how Dorian's designs are always more connected with snakes.   So the two headed snake could be part of a family crest and why so many of his robes have this design feature.  It is possible that the amulet in his tarot has a design unique to House Pavus, not just the snakes but the bit underneath.   Mind you, you'd think that their crest would have more to do with peacock feathers but may be that was a long time ago and the link between the name and the crest has changed. 

 

As for Fenris, I definitely didn't get the offer to read it to him (no heart icon), even when I was pretty high on the friendship path, but I wasn't maxed out.   May be that was the reason or may be it was because I was in a romance with Isabella; she seemed to mess up everything connected with Fenris.

[nightscrawl]

Here is imagery that is part of the wall decals found in Tevinter ruins... Also, 1/2 of the serpents featured on the Tevinter crest is a snake (smaller), the other is a dragon (larger).

 

Spoiler

 

There is a lot of artistic license taken with the tarot cards for ALL followers and major NPCs. I don't think that they should be taken at 100% face value.

[Sarah1281]

What happens to Dorian's amulet if you are just a friend is one of the things that bothers me as well.   It is why I find it hard to understand why it is tied to the romance.   Surely it is something you would do for him as a friend?  Surely Ponchard would have heard if you are good friends with Dorian.    Although there is a suggestion that Ponchard thinks you are already more than good friends when you meet him.     

 

I can get where they're coming from with that becuase it is such a big deal and means the world to Dorian (much as he complains) if you do it but it just doesn't seem as naturally romantically coded as some of the other ones. Yes, Ponchard goes to the Inquisitor because they're intimate and implies all sorts of things but he could go because they're best friends too and it makes sense to only trigger the quest upon approval. Dorian doesn't want his best friend to do this so he certainly doesn't want someone he's described as spreading across Thedas like a cancer looking into it. 

 

Josephine's quest is explicitly romantic. Her parents betrothed her elsewhere so you try to fight a duel for her hand. Without the Inquisitor, she likely resolves it herself without marrying him. Cassandra's quest involves her refusing to date you until you prove you can provide the kind of super gooey romantic relationship she wants and you can't possibly have it more romantically coded than that. Cullen takes you on a nice day trip where you bond and talk about your relationship and if you're not romantic you don't really miss anything by not doing this. Blackwall's quest is him trying to explain why he won't date you and then pushing the conversation off again because he's not about to reveal his true identity. Not a conversation that needs to be had if you're not interested. Sera's quest is giving her a romantic gift because Sera got you one and, again, not applicable for non-romance. For Iron Bull you take one of the dragons you can kill without the romance and make a necklace showing your commitment using the parts. It may force you to kill a dragon you wouldn't have otherwise bothered with but, gamewise, it doesn't matter if you kill dragons or not. Solas doesn't appear to have a romance quest but he's kind of a special case for obvious reasons and he does have that break-up do you want to remove your Vallaslin conversation. 

 

Dorian's quest is different. If you don't do it, if you don't romance him, he's not getting something he really wants and needs and that is really important back. I do love how meaningful the quest is and I think it may be more meaningful than any of the other romance ones which tend to be just about their romance and relationship but I really wish that if they wanted to keep it romance-specific we could at least find out that through great effort and expense Dorian eventually managed to get the amulet back but not as quickly and easily as the Inquisitor got it for him. 

 

It's just another thing that's making me not want to romance anyone else (such a trial, I know ) if he's not going to be able to get that back without the romance. 

 

As for Fenris, I'm pretty sure I helped him read but I haven't played in ages and I have yet to romance him. Dealing with him in cutscenes as a rival is just impossible. Nothing makes him happy and if you do manage to please him he gets more hostile towards you as you got friendship points which decreases his rival respect for you and makes him all middling. My first playthrough I kept helping mages but trying to be supportive towards him and he ended up smack in the middle and kind of hating me. Anders rivalry I like but Fenris' is just too complicated for me. 

[nightscrawl]

^ Er... what is your "spreading across Thedas like a cancer" thing in reference to?

 

 

Your feeling on it seems like you're missing the point of the quest, which is all tied up in Dorian's concern over how their rumored intimacy is viewed -- as him "using" the Inquisitor. The very last thing he wants is for this man that he respects and admires, and is beginning to have feelings for, to be dragged through the mud. Dorian cares nothing for his own self, his reputation is already pretty low, but he cares about the Inquisitor and his reputation. It's also an indication that he is starting to see meaning and importance in "us" and that there might be the possibility of "more," even if he's afraid to hope for it.

 

The other aspect of the quest is also in showing Dorian that you are willing to do something for him, just because you care, that you don't want or expect anything from him.

 

Dorian is not overtly romantic and neither is his quest. The entire thing is extremely revelatory, regardless of which path you take, and is all bound up in the romance in a direct way. It's very much of a "show, not tell" gesture from the Inquisitor, which Dorian appreciates because that is also how he is; he shows, he doesn't tell. Most of the time he has to be provoked into revealing his feelings.

 

The amulet is important. Getting it back was important. Perhaps just as important was the way in which he got it back, the person who got it back for him, and what it meant for that person to do such a thing.

 

I think it is the perfect romance quest for that romance and that character.

 

 

[edit]

I always have to metagame the friendship/rivalry pretty hard for both Fenris and Anders to get them where I want. I switch them out for quests and so on. It's kind of a pain, but it's really the only way I can make the quest decisions I want while also having the F/R paths I want with those characters.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 11 juin 2016 - 10:24 .