22154 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

If he hates you post-temple you catch him arranging transport of himself or his ashes if it comes to that back to Tevinter and he yells at you and says he's leaving when Corypheus is defeated (if you don't kick him out right there), that he's ironically been inspired by you because as much as he hates watching you spread across Thedas like a cancer if you can do all of that he has no excuse not to try and reform his home. And that's a far cry form him in a romance but my point was that I could see a non-romantic version of the quest being approval-dependent so an inquisitor he hates that much would never hear about it. 

 

But I don't think I miss the point of the quest at all. I get all of that and I did say that I understood why it was a romance quest, I think. My issue isn't that it has nothing to do with romance or isn't romantic or whatnot. I just don't like the idea while if any of the other romance quests aren't done then ultimately nothing changes for anyone outside of them not dating the Inquisitor, Dorian doesn't get something so important back. That's why I said I'd have preferred to hear, maybe in Trespasser, that if you haven't romanced him he finally managed to get the amulet back and it was an ordeal. So it could still be a good romance quest and the Inquisitor stepping in saves him like two years and whatever he had to do to get it back on his own so it doesn't take away from the Inquisitor's stepping in. 

 

My feelings about it are simply that I don't like him never getting back something so important if you don't romance him. 

[nightscrawl]

If he hates you post-temple you catch him arranging transport of himself or his ashes if it comes to that back to Tevinter and he yells at you and says he's leaving when Corypheus is defeated (if you don't kick him out right there), that he's ironically been inspired by you because as much as he hates watching you spread across Thedas like a cancer if you can do all of that he has no excuse not to try and reform his home. And that's a far cry form him in a romance but my point was that I could see a non-romantic version of the quest being approval-dependent so an inquisitor he hates that much would never hear about it.

Dang. I've never watched the scene, mainly because I don't want to see him get punched in the face, but I can imagine him saying all that.

 

But I don't think I miss the point of the quest at all. I get all of that and I did say that I understood why it was a romance quest, I think. My issue isn't that it has nothing to do with romance or isn't romantic or whatnot. I just don't like the idea while if any of the other romance quests aren't done then ultimately nothing changes for anyone outside of them not dating the Inquisitor, Dorian doesn't get something so important back. That's why I said I'd have preferred to hear, maybe in Trespasser, that if you haven't romanced him he finally managed to get the amulet back and it was an ordeal. So it could still be a good romance quest and the Inquisitor stepping in saves him like two years and whatever he had to do to get it back on his own so it doesn't take away from the Inquisitor's stepping in. 
 
My feelings about it are simply that I don't like him never getting back something so important if you don't romance him.

Sorry if my tone was poor. I get it, and I agree that it is a bummer.

[Melbella]

Yepper, you are correct. His reaction is different for friend or rival, but you can offer either way. However, his reaction in rival makes it seem like he doesn't accept, so I have wondered about that. Fenris is so damn prickly.

He really is, which is why I only did rivalry with him once. I hated it. He didn't even want the Sword of Mercy.

On topic....I conscripted the mages for the first time and Dorian so far doesn't think much of my Inqui. He called her "thick" in the head. He'll get over it later when she helps him kill a bunch of Venatori though.

[Gervaise]

I find it rather amusing when he basically calls you stupid if you conscript the mages, although I also find it annoying that you can't counter that view with one of your own because to my mind it is anything but stupid.   The mages were happy enough to be indentured to Tevinter; well now they are conscripted to the Inquisition until such time as I feel I can trust them; they did after all meekly tow the line when their leader sold them out to a foreign power and that leader is still in control.   (It still bugs me that you can't replace Fiona as their leader or let the mages judge her for her betrayal of them).   Also we have no idea how many Venatori are still in their ranks.    The silly thing is you get the probation speech to your advisors after you ally with the mages, which seems a bit daft because it is a bit of a lame probation when you have no real control over them.    Now when conscripted the untrustworthy ones do cause trouble and if you follow Leliana's advice and let them escape, they run off and join up with a bunch of rogue mages who are working on producing more of the stuff that blew up the Chantry in Kirkwall.  So this lets you remove this threat that you would otherwise have not known about until something or someone got blown up.

 

Ultimately, if Leliana becomes Divine, the conscripted mages decide they would rather stay working with the Inquisition, forming the Order of the Bright Hand, who become exemplars of what mages should be (so clearly being conscripted wasn't so bad or they wouldn't have wanted to stay).   Lets face it, unless Leliana does become Divine, whether you ally or conscript the mages it leads to trouble down the line.  Whilst all this comes to naught in Trespasser, I'd like to think that Dorian would agree that my actions weren't as stupid as they first appeared.    I allied with the mages on my first ever run but was so unhappy with the outcome, particularly regarding Fiona, that I've gone with conscription on the mages run ever since.    As I say, it makes no difference after Trespasser because regardless you have a Chantry loyalist Circle and a College of Enchanters whatever you did.

 

As for Dorian getting his Birthright amulet back when not in a romance, I was thinking that may be Ponchard does hang onto it but then when Dorian gets the news of his father's death and his promotion to Magister, he would very much want to get it back.    So he pays Ponchard a visit and points out that whilst he can't get him anything in the south, having the goodwill of a Magister might not be such a bad idea if he wants to have greater opportunities in the north.    He would not be actively threatening him or even actually promising him anything, just implying the benefits of letting him recover his amulet or alternatively the downside of refusing him.    I think Ponchard would take the bait, take the money and hope for more in the future in terms of business flowing his way.   Whether he gets it or not is an entirely different matter.  

 

Still I think that one way or another he would recover his amulet.   As Nightscrawl says, the quest in game is more about the nature of Dorian's relationship with the Inquisitor rather than the amulet itself.

[Xilizhra]

I find it rather amusing when he basically calls you stupid if you conscript the mages, although I also find it annoying that you can't counter that view with one of your own because to my mind it is anything but stupid.   The mages were happy enough to be indentured to Tevinter; well now they are conscripted to the Inquisition until such time as I feel I can trust them; they did after all meekly tow the line when their leader sold them out to a foreign power and that leader is still in control.   (It still bugs me that you can't replace Fiona as their leader or let the mages judge her for her betrayal of them).   Also we have no idea how many Venatori are still in their ranks.    The silly thing is you get the probation speech to your advisors after you ally with the mages, which seems a bit daft because it is a bit of a lame probation when you have no real control over them.    Now when conscripted the untrustworthy ones do cause trouble and if you follow Leliana's advice and let them escape, they run off and join up with a bunch of rogue mages who are working on producing more of the stuff that blew up the Chantry in Kirkwall.  So this lets you remove this threat that you would otherwise have not known about until something or someone got blown up.

 

Ultimately, if Leliana becomes Divine, the conscripted mages decide they would rather stay working with the Inquisition, forming the Order of the Bright Hand, who become exemplars of what mages should be (so clearly being conscripted wasn't so bad or they wouldn't have wanted to stay).   Lets face it, unless Leliana does become Divine, whether you ally or conscript the mages it leads to trouble down the line.  Whilst all this comes to naught in Trespasser, I'd like to think that Dorian would agree that my actions weren't as stupid as they first appeared.    I allied with the mages on my first ever run but was so unhappy with the outcome, particularly regarding Fiona, that I've gone with conscription on the mages run ever since.    As I say, it makes no difference after Trespasser because regardless you have a Chantry loyalist Circle and a College of Enchanters whatever you did.

 

As for Dorian getting his Birthright amulet back when not in a romance, I was thinking that may be Ponchard does hang onto it but then when Dorian gets the news of his father's death and his promotion to Magister, he would very much want to get it back.    So he pays Ponchard a visit and points out that whilst he can't get him anything in the south, having the goodwill of a Magister might not be such a bad idea if he wants to have greater opportunities in the north.    He would not be actively threatening him or even actually promising him anything, just implying the benefits of letting him recover his amulet or alternatively the downside of refusing him.    I think Ponchard would take the bait, take the money and hope for more in the future in terms of business flowing his way.   Whether he gets it or not is an entirely different matter.  

 

Still I think that one way or another he would recover his amulet.   As Nightscrawl says, the quest in game is more about the nature of Dorian's relationship with the Inquisitor rather than the amulet itself.

Why does no one ever seem to get the dialogue that Fiona is not their leader? She says that she's no longer the leader of the rebellion, at Skyhold, even if you ally with the mages. Your concerns are automatically addressed. Also, the threat you mentioned only exists if you conscript them. Also also, Vivienne's Circle isn't tied to the Chantry if Leliana is Divine.

[Gervaise]

I believe what she says is that she is no longer Grand Enchanter (a title linked to the Circles), which is not the same thing as not being their leader.   All dealings with the mages seem to be through her and it is Fiona that is shown in charge of them in the epilogue.    The threat would still have been there in the allied version, you just don't get to find out about them.   Vivienne's Circle may not be tied to the Chantry if Leliana is Divine but it is still theoretically loyal to it and certainly in opposition to the College of Enchanters.  The trouble is everything about the choices in the mage/Templar conflict is too simplistic.   If you choose to conscript the mages that means you don't support mage freedom; no it doesn't, you just feel this particular group of mages cannot be trusted with total freedom at present (they were freely working with the enemy let us not forget).   If you go to get help from the Templars, it means you support them; no it doesn't, you just feel that was the wisest course of action at the time.   

 

Still this is a thread about Dorian.   If you want to debate these issues, please start another thread and I will be happy to do so. 

[Xilizhra]

I believe what she says is that she is no longer Grand Enchanter (a title linked to the Circles), which is not the same thing as not being their leader.   All dealings with the mages seem to be through her and it is Fiona that is shown in charge of them in the epilogue.    The threat would still have been there in the allied version, you just don't get to find out about them.   Vivienne's Circle may not be tied to the Chantry if Leliana is Divine but it is still theoretically loyal to it and certainly in opposition to the College of Enchanters.  The trouble is everything about the choices in the mage/Templar conflict is too simplistic.   If you choose to conscript the mages that means you don't support mage freedom; no it doesn't, you just feel this particular group of mages cannot be trusted with total freedom at present (they were freely working with the enemy let us not forget).   If you go to get help from the Templars, it means you support them; no it doesn't, you just feel that was the wisest course of action at the time.   

 

Still this is a thread about Dorian.   If you want to debate these issues, please start another thread and I will be happy to do so. 

No, the line to which I refer is (possibly paraphrased) "I've been a Grey Warden, Grand Enchanter, leader of a rebellion... and now, I am none of those things."

[Gervaise]

No longer leader of a rebellion, which is true since they are no longer rebelling.   She is still the de facto leader of that particular group of mages since every communication seems to come through her.   In any case, I felt we should have been able to judge her for her actions or at least allowed the other mages to.   We were able to do that with the last surviving officer of the Templars (I always give him over to his fellow ex-Templars to decide), so why couldn't we do that with Fiona?   She was at least as culpable as he was.   At least give them the opportunity to vote on whether they want her as their official representative any more. 

 

Anyway, that is in the past.   In the future I assume the main faction of mages we will be dealing with is the Lucerni and I'm perfectly okay with their leadership.

[Xilizhra]

No longer leader of a rebellion, which is true since they are no longer rebelling.   She is still the de facto leader of that particular group of mages since every communication seems to come through her.   In any case, I felt we should have been able to judge her for her actions or at least allowed the other mages to.   We were able to do that with the last surviving officer of the Templars (I always give him over to his fellow ex-Templars to decide), so why couldn't we do that with Fiona?   She was at least as culpable as he was.   At least give them the opportunity to vote on whether they want her as their official representative any more. 

 

Anyway, that is in the past.   In the future I assume the main faction of mages we will be dealing with is the Lucerni and I'm perfectly okay with their leadership.

That'd be an internal matter for the mages to vote on, and I'm not sure why the Inquisition would be involved. Also, Denam was actively collaborating with Corypheus with full knowledge of what was going on; he was the equivalent of Alexius, which is why they were both judged. Fiona is the equivalent of Barris, as the largely unwitting pawn.

[Qun00]

So, considering that the protagonist always dabbles in politics what are the odds that we'll get the chance to make Dorian the new archon?

For realism? I happen to like that aspect of it, even if I rarely take such options myself. I only flirt with those I intend to romance, based primarily on meta information. It just so happens that, based on my particular play history, that I already knew the romance options in DAO; I didn't romance anyone on the first play, so I had the meta knowledge on the second. For DA2, I ended up flirting and sleeping with Fenris, but then went over to Anders; in subsequent plays I just stuck with one person. For DAI, I already knew all of the LIs and their orientations going into the game, so again I only flirted with the one I was interested in. However, with DA4 I plan to go into the game blind. If I like someone and get rejected, then so be it.

I think it's perfectly fine as long as the NPC does it in a nice way, as does happen with the ones in DAI.

I find it odd that you should ask this question in the Dorian thread, since the female Inquisitor finds out in a really different way to the standard flirt + rejection type, as with a male + Cullen, for example.

I think they should ALL have flirts and rejections, but sadly that is not the case. A male can't flirt with Blackwall or Solas at all.

Is it that different? I remember that Dorian says something like "You are a remarkable woman. Maybe in another life..."

[Sarah1281]

He says that if you accuse him of leading you on after the fact. Dorian says a lot of things that make it pretty clear he's not heterosexual but that's not the same thing as indicating he's gay until he's angrily informing you why his dad had to trick him into meeting with him. The other companions will eventually tell you they're not interested, he doesn't seem to realize a female inquisitor might take the flirting seriously until you realize he's not interested with the conversation with his father and tell him. He's very apologetic and offers to stop the flirting, giving you that "in another life" line like he wouldn't have stood a much better chance of having been married to Livia if the idea of being married to a woman wasn't so impossible for him. Sure he says they hated each other but we don't know anything more than that and just the fact he was not looking to be trapped in a heterosexual marriage for the purposes of breeding and she may have taken offence at how disinterested he was in her would probably have been enough there. 

[nightscrawl]

So, considering that the protagonist always dabbles in politics what are the odds that we'll get the chance to make Dorian the new archon?


Is it that different? I remember that Dorian says something like "You are a remarkable woman. Maybe in another life..."

 

That is not a flirt + rejection, as the others. A woman can flirt with him and he responds in a playful manner. Finding out in that scene with his father is drastically different.

 

To your other question, I'm hoping not. I'd prefer not to be involved with politics at all, to be honest. I'd like the DA4 PC to be more like the Neverwinter Nights PC, basically an agent that reports to other people -- Dorian, Maevaris, the Inquisitor, Charter, Harding.

 

 

He says that if you accuse him of leading you on after the fact. Dorian says a lot of things that make it pretty clear he's not heterosexual but that's not the same thing as indicating he's gay until he's angrily informing you why his dad had to trick him into meeting with him. The other companions will eventually tell you they're not interested, he doesn't seem to realize a female inquisitor might take the flirting seriously until you realize he's not interested with the conversation with his father and tell him. He's very apologetic and offers to stop the flirting, giving you that "in another life" line like he wouldn't have stood a much better chance of having been married to Livia if the idea of being married to a woman wasn't so impossible for him. Sure he says they hated each other but we don't know anything more than that and just the fact he was not looking to be trapped in a heterosexual marriage for the purposes of breeding and she may have taken offence at how disinterested he was in her would probably have been enough there. 

 

I don't know about about "things that make it pretty clear he's not heterosexual." I haven't heard most of them myself. It seems to me that a lot of that is HIGHLY dependent on party banter, which is therefore dependent on whom you choose to bring along. My 1.5 plays on the fem Inquisitor usually had Dorian, Cassandra, Varric, Solas, and very rarely Blackwall or Cole, which is not the combination for more suggestive, bawdy banter. He mentions that Cullen is a "strapping young templar" if you start a romance with him, and also that he imagines Blackwall might keep one warm by the fire if you romance him, but that is also dependent on timing versus when you complete Dorian's personal quest. There is also the option to ask about him and Felix, but I've never taken it because I don't think it's appropriate in the scene. With all of that, I can't think of anything in particular that he says that might be suggestive that he is not heterosexual. If you're only going by things he says, it's really player-dependant.

 

Then again, on the very first play I already knew he was gay from information on the LIs released previously, so I never got a chance to find out for myself. But I do know that there were female players that missed it and were disappointed they wouldn't get to continue a romance. I had already planned to romance Cullen on my first play, so it wasn't a thing for me.

 

His reaction is so sweet to a fem Inquisitor, but it also seems tinged with the tiniest bit of fear that he may have lost a friend, and consequently he looks a bit relieved, as well as amused, if you tell him not to stop. I only took the flirts and that "leading me on" line one time, just to see it, but that's not something I would normally do or say.

 

 

 

[edit]

Wow 18 pages to go until 900. I've only been here since the 600s (I think...). I miss some of those old peeps.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 13 juin 2016 - 02:31 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't know about about "things that make it pretty clear he's not heterosexual." I haven't heard most of them myself. It seems to me that a lot of that is HIGHLY dependent on party banter, which is therefore dependent on whom you choose to bring along. My 1.5 plays on the fem Inquisitor usually had Dorian, Cassandra, Varric, Solas, and very rarely Blackwall or Cole, which is not the combination for more suggestive, bawdy banter. He mentions that Cullen is a "strapping young templar" if you start a romance with him, and also that he imagines Blackwall might keep one warm by the fire if you romance him, but that is also dependent on timing versus when you complete Dorian's personal quest. There is also the option to ask about him and Felix, but I've never taken it because I don't think it's appropriate in the scene. With all of that, I can't think of anything in particular that he says that might be suggestive that he is not heterosexual. If you're only going by things he says, it's really player-dependant.

Then again, on the very first play I already knew he was gay from information on the LIs released previously, so I never got a chance to find out for myself. But I do know that there were female players that missed it and were disappointed they wouldn't get to continue a romance. I had already planned to romance Cullen on my first play, so it wasn't a thing for me.

His reaction is so sweet to a fem Inquisitor, but it also seems tinged with the tiniest bit of fear that he may have lost a friend, and consequently he looks a bit relieved, as well as amused, if you tell him not to stop. I only took the flirts and that "leading me on" line one time, just to see it, but that's not something I would normally do or say

Yeah, feel it's a bit much to accuse someone who flirts with a lot of people very openly of leading you on for just a little flirtation but not all Inquisitors have a lot of experience and even if leading on isn't the right word since he doesn't realize the Inquisitor could have started falling for him he doesn't disclose his sexuality and being disappointed by someone you like not being able to be into you can be painful. So I don't think it's leading on but I could see why someone would take it that way.

I don't feel Dorian being gay was clear before meeting with his father, just that he was interested in men. Before that meeting, it could have been like Josephine or Blackwall. it's especially clear with a male PC but since he flirts with a female PC all that talk about him being strapping and whatnot doesn't have to mean anything.

I think most important character details depends on choices and who goes where. Varric couldn't make me hear about Bianca in my last play through, for instance. But the choices I took had a lot of references to men being attractive by the time I went to see Halward. It doesn't have to amount to anything but it was enough I wasn't surprised he was interested in men. Not being interested in women is not the same thing, though, and was a bit of a surprise since all previous LIs were bi or heterosexual.

[nightscrawl]

Yeah, feel it's a bit much to accuse someone who flirts with a lot of people very openly of leading you on for just a little flirtation but not all Inquisitors have a lot of experience and even if leading on isn't the right word since he doesn't realize the Inquisitor could have started falling for him he doesn't disclose his sexuality and being disappointed by someone you like not being able to be into you can be painful. So I don't think it's leading on but I could see why someone would take it that way.

I think it would have been cute for a fem Inquisitor to say, "I confess that I'm a bit disappointed... for myself," which is suggestive, but not too much, while also not being too critical. I'd love to see his reaction to that one.

 

I don't feel Dorian being gay was clear before meeting with his father, just that he was interested in men. Before that meeting, it could have been like Josephine or Blackwall. it's especially clear with a male PC but since he flirts with a female PC all that talk about him being strapping and whatnot doesn't have to mean anything.

I think most important character details depends on choices and who goes where. Varric couldn't make me hear about Bianca in my last play through, for instance. But the choices I took had a lot of references to men being attractive by the time I went to see Halward. It doesn't have to amount to anything but it was enough I wasn't surprised he was interested in men. Not being interested in women is not the same thing, though, and was a bit of a surprise since all previous LIs were bi or heterosexual.

 

Hm, perhaps my perspective is skewed because the ONLY male plays I've ever done have been Dorian romance plays, so I've never seen him make any sort of remarks to a male friend Inquisitor. I did 1.5 female plays where I romanced/planned to romance Cullen, then ditched that character and have gone for Dorian ever since. I also usually play in the same way, so I tend to miss a lot of stuff. I don't typically do a lot of sarcastic/humorous responses either, other than specific circumstances.

 

From my view on the female plays, because of how I play, I haven't seen that indication.

 

Even if I think of ALL of the dialogue I have on my male Inquisitor prior to meeting with Halward, there wouldn't be anything without flirting. Nothing in In Hushed Whispers, nothing in his background (which he avoids being too specific about), various aspects of Tevinter, the first Skyhold conversation, talking about Alexius and Felix... Then we get to The Last Resort of Good men where he is still somewhat evasive if you ask him about it -- "There seems to be bad blood between you and your family," to which he laughs and replies, "Interesting turn of phrase," and on questioning his remark about "choices," and asking specifically about getting married he just says, "That too." (Lol)

 

I'm not denying that you thought it was clear, I'm only saying that I have never seen that clear indication in my own game, given the way I play, and the choices I make.

 

 

 

I do wish I had gone into the game blind, though, and I do plan to for DA4. If they do fixed sexualities again (I'm hoping), I will be completely surprised, or bummed out, as the case may be.

 

At any rate, don't mind my continued long responses. Any excuse to talk about Dorian.

 

Here is a new topic for you... what is your view on the post-Mythal conversation? Everyone in the thread seems to have a different perspective on it.

[Gervaise]

Just thought I'd add that my first run, which was with my female Solas romance, I was surprised when they gave me the option to flirt with Dorian because I did know in advance that he was gay.   However, my girl didn't know this and I played it based off my reaction to him in her place.   He charmed her totally (apart from his comments about slavery) and she really felt attracted to him, which had her torn because she also liked Solas but really he hadn't made such an impression on her as Dorian had.    It was all that travelling through time together that did it; it does bring you closer experiencing something like that.   At this point I hadn't even kissed Solas and he wasn't enthusiastically returning my flirts like Dorian was, so she was hardly being fickle.   

 

When she flirted with Dorian I was totally surprised that he didn't make it clear at once that it wasn't going anywhere.    This was while we were still in Haven.   Then when we got to Skyhold there was another opportunity to flirt and again no indication that he wasn't really interested. (It is only after you play a male PC that you realise the difference in the way he responds).   I didn't have him in my parties a lot because I was a mage and she tended to take Solas along as the second one but even when I did, there was still nothing to show he was only interested in men, or even more interested in men.   After all, he could show an interest in, say, Cullen, and yet be bisexual.    Because I allied with the mages, my approval advanced quite quickly and in any case this was back when the Last Resort was bugged so really I was very lucky it did trigger when it did or I'd have lost my chance.   So thankfully she found out that Dorian was gay before she lost her chance with Solas but it did come as a shock, learning about it as she did in the confrontation with his father.    I never thought it unreasonable for her to accuse him of leading her on but in truth it was very good natured, simply voicing her disappointment really.   I thought his response was very sweet and a touch wistful, like he was sorry too.   So they agreed to be good friends, she focussed her romantic attention on Solas and the bastard broke her heart.  

 

If you think about it, it couldn't have been that obvious he was gay to the people around Skyhold or the rumours about him and a female Inquisitor would never have got off the ground.     

[Qun00]

...Aside from the endless and tired debate about his sexuality, I must ask again: Archon Dorian, yay or nay?

Do you think it could happen in DA4?

[Sarah1281]

It seems unlikely. He's a magister and magisters aren't allowed to inherit. Of course, if Bioware wants to they could ignore that or have him give up his seat or the magisterium overwhelmingly votes for it but I can't imagine him being popular enough to get that kind of support. 

[Reznore57]

...Aside from the endless and tired debate about his sexuality, I must ask again: Archon Dorian, yay or nay?

Do you think it could happen in DA4?

 

Nay for me.

I enjoy the backstabbing and elitist mentality of the Altus , the corruption...when I say enjoy I mean the potential for drama and shady politics in the story.

I don't want Dorian to be the main target of this , nor do I want Dorian to turn Tevinter in the land of the good , just and fluffy bunnies.

 

I imagine it could be interesting to see Dorian getting slowly but surely corrupted by his own flaws.His sense of pride , for all his b****ing you also get a sense he enjoys being part of the elite.Just he doesn't like what the elite is doing with its power.

And besides I'll say Tevinter if it's going to change and survive the Qunari  needs someone kind of ruthless.So I'm not convinced he is the man for the job.

[nightscrawl]

So, considering that the protagonist always dabbles in politics what are the odds that we'll get the chance to make Dorian the new archon?

To your other question, I'm hoping not. I'd prefer not to be involved with politics at all, to be honest. I'd like the DA4 PC to be more like the Neverwinter Nights PC, basically an agent that reports to other people -- Dorian, Maevaris, the Inquisitor, Charter, Harding.

...Aside from the endless and tired debate about his sexuality, I must ask again: Archon Dorian, yay or nay?

Do you think it could happen in DA4?

I did answer you previously... Anything could happen, sure. Just because the lore has these set things in it, as Sarah1281 mentions, doesn't mean that the writers won't, or can't find some way around it.
 
I don't want it to happen. Not only for Dorian, what that means for him, but because of what that means for the game and the type of power that gives our PC; I don't want the PC to have that much power over such a decision.

 

And you know, I also rather like Archon Radonis. He seems competent, capable of looking at the larger picture, with the dash of ruthlessness required of someone in his position. If Dorian is made Archon, that means Radonis is most likely dead or incapacitated in some manner.

 

Dorian is still also pretty young, is a new magister, and doesn't have very much in the way of his own political capital built up. It's also difficult to know how much of his previous reputation, the weakness suggested by his father's assassination (letting yourself be assassinated doesn't speak well of you), and his association with the Inquisition (and possible relationship with the Inquisitor) has influenced all of that.

 

I think he will be the most effective in the senate; they are the ones who actually do stuff, or... fail to do stuff, as the case may be.

 

 

 

[edit]

Also something else to consider about Archon Radonis and his personality and outlook; at one point, Halward was pretty close to him before Dorian's issues made him fall out favor. Aside from Halward's problems with Dorian, we do know that he was a moderate who also eschewed blood magic. I think this speaks well for Radonis.

 

Also, while it seems like the implication in WoT is that Dorian and his youthful indiscretions are what made Halward fall out of favor (I'd imagine personal embarrassment as well as being seen as unable to control his own son), I also wonder how much of that was because of Dorian's open detestation of the altus way of abusing power. It's one thing to sit in parlors, drinking brandy while lamenting over how corrupt the Magisterium is, but it is another to be open and blatant with those views.

 

This is actually the one negative aspect I find with the greater emphasis on Dorian's sexuality that his personal story presents. It is important to him, certainly, but while I do NOT think that is Dorian's sole concern (saving Tevinter only for himself), I think there could have been some more lines thrown in, both in the game and in WoT, about how he dislikes the whole system as it exists and has never had any qualms about expressing so. That is what it means to be a pariah, and I highly doubt he would have been considered so just because he screwed around indecorously.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 14 juin 2016 - 12:29 .

[Xilizhra]

...Aside from the endless and tired debate about his sexuality, I must ask again: Archon Dorian, yay or nay?

Do you think it could happen in DA4?

If there's anyone I want as archon, it's Calpernia. Admittedly rather unlikely.

[Gervaise]

I thought from reading between the lines of the history of Dorian in WoT2 that probably his father was trying to get him recognised as Radonis' heir.    The position of Archon is usually inherited just as being a Magister is, through the incumbent nominating his heir before he dies, whether from among his own relatives or his apprentices.   It is only if the Archon dies without naming an heir that the Magisterium elects a new one.   So at one time it might well have been on the cards if Dorian had gone along with his father's plans but less so now.   In fact it may be that Dorian took up his seat in the Magisterium to ensure he couldn't quality for the position.   I don't really think Dorian is cut out to be Archon and I think he knows it too.   He is far better on the back benches; you can be far more vocal there, than having to toe the line to keep the backing of the Magisterium.  Mind you he wouldn't mind being invited to all the best parties as he claims the Archon is

 

I'd like to see Calpernia in a position of influence but since Radonis has previously wanted her dead, I think he's highly unlikely to make her his heir.    Nor is she likely to get voted in if he dies without one.     I wouldn't be surprised if they did involve us in the decision, having killed off Radonis in some way, but hopefully it will be indirectly by gathering information to help someone that Dorian wants to see become Archon, rather than trying to put Dorian there himself.

[Sarah1281]

Is Calpernia Liberati or Laetan? She's possibly the first of her family who is magical and she is a mage but she's also a freed slave and if being a mage isn't enough to free you from slavery I can't imagine it would put you in the second-highest social class should you get freed. In addition to being a former slave, she openly followed Corypheus. The only way I can see her becoming archon is if she conquers the place. I wouldn't want her to be one, either. Sure she was deceived by Corypheus about him wanting to control her magically but I don't trust anyone's judgment who thought following him was a good idea. 

 

I still don't understand how Halward thought Dorian being Archon would work. Who was he planning on having succeed him as magister? Some nephew or cousin? 

[nightscrawl]

I thought from reading between the lines of the history of Dorian in WoT2 that probably his father was trying to get him recognised as Radonis' heir.    The position of Archon is usually inherited just as being a Magister is, through the incumbent nominating his heir before he dies, whether from among his own relatives or his apprentices.   It is only if the Archon dies without naming an heir that the Magisterium elects a new one.   So at one time it might well have been on the cards if Dorian had gone along with his father's plans but less so now.   In fact it may be that Dorian took up his seat in the Magisterium to ensure he couldn't quality for the position.   I don't really think Dorian is cut out to be Archon and I think he knows it too.   He is far better on the back benches; you can be far more vocal there, than having to toe the line to keep the backing of the Magisterium.  Mind you he wouldn't mind being invited to all the best parties as he claims the Archon is

 

I think you're likely right about Halward's goals, and Dorian seems quite aware of it, even in the game. But as to your point about his taking the seat as a preventative measure... eh... I think he took it because he saw it as an opportunity to further his plans for reforming Tevinter.

 

I think Dorian can do anything he puts his mind to. He only isn't "cut out" for it if you subscribe to the idea that in order to maintain power you have to rule through fear and intimidation, and since he wants to change that mindset, I don't think he would be a poor Archon in that sense.
 
 

I still don't understand how Halward thought Dorian being Archon would work. Who was he planning on having succeed him as magister? Some nephew or cousin?

In that case, I think it's more about having a Pavus as Archon. That is a HUGE deal. Also, if Dorian had gotten married, produced an heir, and become Archon, he could have named his child as successor and continued the Pavus line of Archons onward. However, I'm also assuming that the Pavus seat in the Magisterium would remain even if it's not filled. It's not like our own representational government where you need to have a person to represent the people; new families do occasionally get seats (as decided by the Archon).

 

Tevinter seems more rigidly patriarchal than the rest of Thedas. Have there been any female Archons? All of the known Archons listed are male. If not, and Archons are only men, as the "Black" Divine is, if Dorian were to have had a daughter she could take up the Pavus seat in the Magisterium while he appoints a male successor to the Archon seat.

[Gervaise]

I don't dispute that Dorian could do anything he puts his mind to but deep down I don't think he is ruthless enough to be Archon, particularly an Archon who wants to change things like he does.  It is one thing leading a small group of Magisters who support his call for reforms and the weeding out of corruption, it is quite another to be trying to do this as the head of state.   Archon's who have attempted radical change in the past have tended to wind up dead or, in the case of Hessarian, a great many other people have died to bring about the change instead. I really don't think that Dorian would be willing to undertake the sort of bloodbath that Hessarian did.   He wants revenge on his father's killers and to get rid of the corruption in politics, not destroy the whole political system. 

 

Even simply keeping himself in the top position would be risky enough that it might threaten to compromise his principles.    It is where his greatest fear comes in; giving into temptation.    That could be an aspect of the next game in some way; supporting Dorian so he doesn't have to give into temptation to survive or achieve his aims.  It is why he draws such strength from his contact with the Inquisitor through the crystal, whether friend or lover, because they help him maintain his resolve.   

 

I often wonder about the story Lambert tells about the Black Divine.  Was Magister Urien always deceiving him or did he genuinely want to change the world but gave into temptation when he realised it was the only way to achieve his aims and stay in power?    There was apparently something of a massacre of leading political opponents in bringing him to power, even without the blood magic angle, although it was discovering that Urien and his allies were using blood magic behind the scenes that proved the final straw for Lambert.   

 

"To save my country I would do anything".   May be that is a claim that will be put to the test in DA4.

[nightscrawl]

He wants revenge on his father's killers and to get rid of the corruption in politics, not destroy the whole political system.

I hope this will be addressed in some manner in the next game.

 

Hm... I am positing this to you because I know you like Calpernia. What if it turns out that she had Halward assassinated, knowing that Dorian would replace him, because of his reformer stance? It's a win for her either way, unless Dorian finds out, that is.

 

Even simply keeping himself in the top position would be risky enough that it might threaten to compromise his principles.    It is where his greatest fear comes in; giving into temptation.    That could be an aspect of the next game in some way; supporting Dorian so he doesn't have to give into temptation to survive or achieve his aims.  It is why he draws such strength from his contact with the Inquisitor through the crystal, whether friend or lover, because they help him maintain his resolve.   
 
... 
 
"To save my country I would do anything".   May be that is a claim that will be put to the test in DA4.

It's with things like this that I ardently wish for the Inquisitor to be a part of the next game. Unfortunately, I always have to remind myself to keep a tight leash on my own headcanon for such things, as anything in the game will likely not conform to what's in my own head.

 

But it does have the great potential to be compelling, I agree.