22146 réponses à ce sujet

[Arlee]

I haven't been able to find the Dev comment on the Trespasser pronunciation of Amatus, which is frustrating

[Gervaise]

Dorian has slipped so far down the board I thought I'd start a new topic.   Not terribly important but I was wondering about his mother's family name, Thalrassian.    I wondered if they might be a branch of a family tracing back to either Thalsian, the first dreamer and priest of Dumat, or Thalasian the Destroyer, who was responsible for approving the conquest of the elves of Arlathan Forest.   I know its not exactly the same but it could be a combination of two family names that were combined at some point on marriage, if that is the way it is handled in Tevinter.   Just a bit of trivia but it would be interesting if Dorian traced his lineage not just to any old ancient dreamer but the First Dreamer.  

[Sarah1281]

It seems very unlikely that a culture that prides themselves on tracing their lineage to ancient houses (we've got Corypheus' family still doing fine and knowing full well they're related to him but pretending otherwise for public relations) would go off and start a new house with a new name. That might be something that would happen in Orzammar when there's a new paragon but it would have to be some pretty exceptional circumstances for someone with a respected and powerful name to throw it away and the other party's respected and powerful name to just combine it into one name. 

[Gervaise]

I was thinking not the main branch of the family but may be a second or third child.  Like I say, it was just a bit of trivial musing and nothing important.  I was stuck for an idea that could be more significant.

[Gervaise]

Okay I've come up with another topic which may have a bit more mileage.   I was thinking about the Dalish prohibition against magic involving spirits and how that might make my Lavellan somewhat wary when Dorian started using his necromancy.   This made me feel it was a pity that you can't bring up the subject of their specialisms with your companions generally but only seem to get to discuss it with them if you take a particular specialism.   So when Dorian commented on my choice of assassin, it would have be nice to have been able to respond with an enquiry why he chose to be a necromancer.   What made that so appealing as opposed to some other discipline?   Who did he learn it from?     It is something of a puzzle considering he was mentored by Alexius from his teenage years and was said to have been a gifted student of thaumaturgy.  That is simply a wonder worker, which pretty much describes what a mage is, so presumably it means something different in Tevinter Circles.   Alexius and Livia had made a life long study of the Fade and the Veil, so presumably they would know a lot about spirits and their uses.   It does also make me wonder if something in their research notes, that Dorian inherited from Alexius, might actually be helpful in the fight against Solas.

 

The other thing was regarding the Dalish prohibition against blood magic.   I think this would be more than just because of the inherent dangers of the discipline but also dates back to the time of the foundation of the Dales, when ex-slaves arriving after the Long March would have recounted their experiences of slavery.   There is an example in the World of Thedas of one such account, where the slave had to endure years of having blood drained enough to make them sick and weak but not enough to kill.   Others would no doubt have witnessed blood sacrifices like Fenris did.    Naturally this didn't turn the Dalish against magic altogether, because of their belief that magic was a gift of the Creators, but it seems to me that it would have made them vow that no elf would ever indulge in blood magic, out of respect for all their brethren had suffered in slavery if nothing else.    So when Dorian was saying, in discussing slavery, that he didn't really know what it was like to be poor and neither did I, my Lavellan was thinking "You have no idea what it is like to be a slave either", because in his mind he was recalling the stories about blood sacrifices.  Then he discovers that Dorian's father was planning on using a blood magic ritual on him and he realises that actually Dorian probably does know exactly how a slave feels when used for blood magic, because surely no slave ever had to confront their own father planning to use blood magic against them.   I felt that would have been a pivotal moment in their relationship just as much as the discovery of Dorian's sexuality or that he had been making a stand against the hypocrisy of their traditions.   Dorian had nearly been a victim of blood magic would carry a resonance with Lavellan because of the Dalish stand against it.

 

Anyway I just thought I would share a few thoughts I had had on the subject.

[nightscrawl]

^ I think a part of the Necromancy spec is simply his interest in the macabre. You see this in his conversation with Cassandra about Nevarra and the necropolis, and also when he says that "there could have been more corpses" about during the dance after WEWH. The Inquisitor's auto-dialogue is, "You're a strange young man, Dorian," to which Dorian replies that he just likes the drama of it all.

He may also simply find other specs boring or uninteresting.

 

If we take the entire range of schools and spells we've seen since DAO, ignoring the fact that they have been pared down dramatically and simplified for gameplay reasons, I think Dorian would also know the various Entropy spells, some of which are also folded into Necromancy with horror and death siphon, and also some Spirit with spirit mark and walking bomb.

 

Entropy is the act of destroying what is there and allowing something new to take its place. Creation is the opposite and complimentary to Entropy, transforming what exists, which is how I assume healing works, by rearranging the damage back into proper working order.

 

In light of that, I think it also fits his rebellious personality.

 

Or, you know, it could be that they had these specs lined up and just stuck them with the followers that seemed most fitting. I think it's hit or miss for the most part with all of them. The Tevinter gets the Necromancy, the dreamer gets the Rift, and the enchanter gets the Knight-Enchanter (I really don't see how this fits Vivienne at all).

[Gervaise]

Yes, I think to some extent they were just trying to pair up specs with the 3 mages we had.   However, I recall over on the Tevinter thread how you pointed out that the Mortalitasi were started by a Tevinter mage, so there is probably a strong tradition of necromancy there, it probably does fit with Dorian.  Also for the reasons you give.   Otherwise, if there was no Solas, I'd say that Rift mage might have been appropriate because of Alexius' studies of the Fade.    If we were looking back at former specialisms, battle mage sounds like it might be something Dorian would take to.   It's such a long time since I played DAA but I seem to recall part of the spec magnified elemental spells like ice and fire.  If he had access to the right trainer, he might be interested in shapeshifter out of pure curiosity for what the experience would feel like if nothing else.  

 

What do you think about something in Alexius or Livia's studies proving crucial?    I know Alexius was focussing on time magic at the end but they had been engaged in years of study even before Dorian joined them and Dorian had to have been with him for around 10 years before tragedy struck, if not more depending on which set of dates you go by.   The other thing was that Livia had a number of apprentices who were left to find their own way after she died.   May be some of them joined the Lucerni.   Perhaps one of them could even be recommended to the PC by Dorian as a companion.   Given the history of Livia, they probably would turn out to be a Rift mage.  

[nightscrawl]

^ It wasn't me that pointed out that bit about the Mortalitasi in Nevarra being brought over by a Tevinter. It was the first I had heard of that, but I did think it was very interesting and helped to explain some of the reasoning behind his Necromancy spec. It seems like this Tevinter brought over these ideas about the Fade and spirits, and the Nevarrans took that and made it highly ritualistic, adapting it to their own culture.

As for the other bit, I don't like to read too much based on the scant WoT information we have. Dorian was molded by the two great men in his life, but he is also very much his own person and has had to figure out who that person is largely by himself. Alexius may have had an influence, or maybe not. I can't really say.

[Gervaise]

His father taught him not to use blood magic but I feel the greatest influence in his adult life was Alexius.   It is strange but if you do the Templar path and meet with Calpernia I could even see him realising how, apart from the help with Felix, Alexius could have had an affinity with her.   Alexius was all about improving schooling and learning not just for mages but the Soporati, because he saw the future of the Imperium in improving everyone.   Then Calpernia makes her speech about how she wants to raise everyone to their true potential, for Tevinter to be a crafter of wonders and a beacon of hope against the savage Qunari.   I can almost see the wheels turning in Dorian's mind thinking "How on earth did she ever get mixed up with the Venatori?" and then remembering Alexius did too.    Then he absolutely approves if you let her go.  "Tevinter could do with more like her."   I wonder if that is the point he realises how much talent is wasted in keeping people enslaved.  Better than poverty may be but they can achieve so much more as true citizens of the Imperium, just as she, the ex-slave, believes.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

His father taught him not to use blood magic but I feel the greatest influence in his adult life was Alexius.   It is strange but if you do the Templar path and meet with Calpernia I could even see him realising how, apart from the help with Felix, Alexius could have had an affinity with her.   Alexius was all about improving schooling and learning not just for mages but the Soporati, because he saw the future of the Imperium in improving everyone.   Then Calpernia makes her speech about how she wants to raise everyone to their true potential, for Tevinter to be a crafter of wonders and a beacon of hope against the savage Qunari.   I can almost see the wheels turning in Dorian's mind thinking "How on earth did she ever get mixed up with the Venatori?" and then remembering Alexius did too.    Then he absolutely approves if you let her go.  "Tevinter could do with more like her."   I wonder if that is the point he realises how much talent is wasted in keeping people enslaved.  Better than poverty may be but they can achieve so much more as true citizens of the Imperium, just as she, the ex-slave, believes.

 

There are plenty of real world research to suggest that peers may have a more formative influence on someone's life than their family.

 

In Dorian's case this is further compounded because he is a mage and mages spend most of their time studying, which means his magical tutors and peers would have more of an influence on him than his parents.

 

http://www.telegraph...ot-parents.html

[Gervaise]

Dorian also seemed a lot closer to Alexius than to his real father; as though Alexius was his true father figure.   Alexius certainly seems to have understood Dorian a lot better than his father did, judging by the letter he wrote to Halward and the way he was able to steer him back to stability from the self destructive attitude that he had previously had.   Those years he was with him before the attack on Felix must have been truly happy ones.    He was a rising star in the Circle, his parents weren't bugging him too much and he was part of a real, loving family.   Since Dorian had no siblings of his own, it is clear now that Felix was more like a brother to him.

[Squinterific]

Dorian also seemed a lot closer to Alexius than to his real father; as though Alexius was his true father figure.   Alexius certainly seems to have understood Dorian a lot better than his father did, judging by the letter he wrote to Halward and the way he was able to steer him back to stability from the self destructive attitude that he had previously had.   Those years he was with him before the attack on Felix must have been truly happy ones.    He was a rising star in the Circle, his parents weren't bugging him too much and he was part of a real, loving family.   Since Dorian had no siblings of his own, it is clear now that Felix was more like a brother to him.

 

I was also intrigued by the fact that after In Hushed Whispers and the subsequent judgement, they dropped Alexius entirely and Dorian never speaks of him again. When Cole does his mind reading thing, he sees Dorian is thinking of his dad and of some past fling, but never of Alexius. I found that kinda jarring, considering he's basically lived and worked with Alexius for the past decade maybe. And considering the guilt he felt for abandoning Alexius in his darkest hour, there's no way he was thinking of his father more than Alexius, who was the real reason he left for the South to being with.

[nightscrawl]

Both men betrayed their principles due to certain circumstances. Dorian was more personally affected by his father's betrayal and I would also consider it a far greater magnitude than that of Alexius. Also consider that the meeting with Halward dredged up all of those negative feelings, so it only makes sense that he would be thinking of it. I'd imagine that when Dorian finally left Tevinter, and especially after he became more focused on Alexius and the Venatori, and eventually joined the Inquisition, that it was easy to put it in the back of his mind. But then Halward comes down south and we have that whole dramatic scene; he can't really ignore it anymore after that point, particularly since the Inquisitor is right there, so it's all out in the open, as it were.
 
The banter sequence is logical to me. Also, I don't believe you can get that dialogue without having already done Dorian's quest.
 

Have you gone to see Alexius yet? He's in the cells.
 
Not yet, no. I saw him before they locked him up. He looked... despondent. Broken. Not the man I remember, nor the one I want to. I suppose the Inquisition will judge him eventually. I wonder if there's any chance they'll show him mercy. He hardly deserves it, but for Felix's sake, I can't help hoping there's something left of the man I once knew.

 
That tells me everything I need to know, really.

 

However, I do wish something else had been said about him finally talking with Alexius, perhaps some one-liner on clicking on him on one occasion. He does seem to be pretty pissed at Alexius for the whole thing, along with the hurt, disappointment, and guilt.

[Gervaise]

I agree that the reason the focus is on Halward is because of that quest dredging up all those negative memories.    There is also the fact he apparently tried to return to Alexius to reconcile with him, found him gone, felt enormously guilty, started reverting to his former self destructive behaviour, which had also been the result of guilt and then his father kidnapped him, imprisoned him for months and was planning on using a blood ritual on him.    By the time he got free, any chance of tracking down Alexius would appear to have gone.   According to the long time scale of events in Dorian's WoT2 entry, it was then 2 years before he heard from Alexius again, by which time he was tangled up in the Venatori.  Even without the two year gap the trail would still have gone cold.   It is possible that Dorian even blames Halward for that.   If he hadn't imprisoned him, he might have got on Alexius' trail sooner.  Still the main thing was that his surrogate father had compromised his principles, just as Halward had but his own father's actions had impacted on him personally.   It is clear he had always wanted to be close to his father and make him proud but his father wouldn't even try to understand him and then he discovered he was wanting to change him with magic into the son he wanted him to be.  

 

Alexius never tried to change him, he simply understood him and helped him overcome his guilt.  From that point of view, it was a pity that they didn't allow at least once more conversation about Alexius but I think the one we got really said it all.  After all, in the future, when you commiserate with him about killing Alexius and say it must be difficult for him, he says that the man died long ago.   I think that Alexius was no longer uppermost in his thoughts because in his mind, Alexius had died along with Felix.    The person in the cells wasn't Alexius.    He had probably got past the grief and was now at the point where you just recall the good things about the deceased.   So there were no bad memories about Alexius that Cole needed to address.

 

There is also the fact that there are various judgements you can make on Alexius.   I've never done it but I think if you make him tranquil, then Dorian does have something to say on the matter.   Perhaps someone else can confirm on that.   He certainly comments if you recruit him to do magical research or get him to work with the mages.    If you make Alexius tranquil then you'd think there would be negative thoughts towards the Inquisitor that Cole would comment on but may be even Cole could see that might not be a good idea because Dorian isn't in need of compassion over it.   He isn't suffering; he is just plain angry.  (I've read how he feels about it and have changed my opinion on this - see below)   Dorian would be suffering.

[Gervaise]

I've just been over on You Tube to check the various reactions of Dorian to your judgement of Alexius.   I'm glad I chose either to use him as an agent or give him to the mages, because Dorian is okay with that and Fiona is clearly not going to abuse him.   The others are so sad for Dorian:

 

If you imprison Alexius he says: "They tell me you sent Alexius back to prison.   Seems a waste to rot away in a cell like that.  He was a good man once.   May be it will give him time to think, but with Felix gone I doubt it."

 

If you execute Alexius: "All he once stood for, his integrity, his beliefs, he betrayed them all.   I won't say he didn't deserve death, I just wish there'd been another way."

What is equally sad in a way is that Alexius hadn't even realised he had successfully sent you into the future.   The Inquisitor says, you will die by my hand again and Alexius says "Wait, you mean the spell worked?"

 

Tranquility is the worst one though:  "I wish you had just killed him.   He was a decent man once.   He deserved to keep his dignity.   I hope I  don't run into him.   That....would be more than I could handle."

 

Poor Dorian, I'm not surprised.   Imagine walking around Skyhold dreading running into Alexius.   It wasn't the first person he'd known who'd been made tranquil.  They punish people that way back in Tevinter.  He said as much to  Cassandra and was asking about the cure, no doubt hoping to help them.   But to have someone who was once so close to him made tranquil and then have to see them like it, would be awful.

 

So I correct my previous post, he would need Cole's compassion in such a case and it is odd if he doesn't give it.

[nightscrawl]

^ There are only so many story beats they're going to address. For the most part, the banter is pretty fixed, with only minor variations.

 

Interesting reaction on the tranquility. I figured he would be pissed (at the Inquisitor), but he seems more resigned and sad than anything else. I can imagine his tone on saying those things, too.

 

However, I thought his remark for the execution, "I won't say he didn't deserve death," is pretty telling, and also jives with his previous remarks just after IHW. He seems to take Alexius's actions more gravely than I do, which is one reason I spare him.

[Gervaise]

That's why I thought I'd post the dialogue.  I'd really thought he'd just rage at the Inquisitor too but he was so sad, dignified, resigned, all at once.   And when he said he couldn't face seeing Corypheus like that, it made me emotional.    I'm glad I never made anyone tranquil.    If there is an optional quest to help his tranquil friends in Tevinter reverse the process, I'll certainly take it, though I must admit they'd certainly need a bit of TLC afterwards based on Asunder.

[Arlee]

I think especially since Dorian went to the future with us he saw not only how crappy of a mess Alexius made everything but how entirely futile it all was considering the condition of Felix there. It's probably that which makes him look at the severity of what Alexius so severely, more severely than anyone else probably would. I did make him tranquil once because I was curious how he would react, and I quickly reloaded that because omg. It's sort of one of the funny things with Dorian, despite how badly he thinks things are he always holds out hope for something better. It might be a small hope, but it's always there and it comes up a few times in his dialogues, this being one big case. He thinks what Alexius was doing was a horrific thing, but he hopes he can... maybe not repent exactly or make-up for things... but regain some of his lost ideals and honor? Idk how to word it exactly ><

[DreamerM]

Between Alexius and Clarel, they were bound and determined to give us mages meddling in magic they don't really understand in the name of some greater good.

...It's almost too bad we couldn't meet Clarel before Alexius. She makes him look competent by comparison. Really, how do you not notice that your own mages are suddenly acting a lot more under-mind-control-y after doing this awesome blood ritual that is totally going to solve all your problems, this shady-as-fugk guy from Tevinter totally promises?

After Clarel, Alexius doesn't seem so bad. Alexius's mistakes were done from a desire to save one person, or undo a mistake. You can imagine he was a good man, for a magister at least, back before tragedy broke him.

[Arlee]

Between Alexius and Clarel, they were bound and determined to give us mages meddling in magic they don't really understand in the name of some greater good.

 

I agree with you on the point about how the hell did Clarel not notice what was happening to her mages; but what Alexius was doing was in no part for the greater good. He wants to save his son because after losing his wife he personally couldn't deal with the thought of his son dying. That was the reason he exalted Corypants and why he got involved with the Venatori in the first place. What Clarel was doing was horrific because she was literally having her people kill each other for power (which even if they didn't become mindless thralls as a result is horrific on it's own). However, Alexius was quite content to let the world burn just to save his son... which for me isn't any less horrific.

[Squinterific]

However, I thought his remark for the execution, "I won't say he didn't deserve death," is pretty telling, and also jives with his previous remarks just after IHW. He seems to take Alexius's actions more gravely than I do, which is one reason I spare him.

 

I don't think he deserved death and I don't think Dorian really believes that either. He just understands if some others might see things that way.

 

Really, the damage Alexius did in Redcliffe wasn't that bad, you and Dorian stop him before he actually does anything more than oust Teagan.

 

The charges brought against him were stretching it a bit too. Apostasy? The Inquisition wasn't part of the Chantry, why would that be on the list? Also you can recruit him 30 seconds later specifically for his brilliant mind and "apostasy" skills.

[Sarah1281]

Dorian also seemed a lot closer to Alexius than to his real father; as though Alexius was his true father figure.   Alexius certainly seems to have understood Dorian a lot better than his father did, 

I feel Alexius had the advantage there. In addition to the fact that he just proved so much more understanding of and accepting of his son’s limitations than Halward (though perhaps Halward thought, preferences be damned, Dorian COULD live the life Halward wanted for him and unless, I don’t know, Felix got really into blood magic that just couldn’t happen for him), what was it to Alexius if Dorian provided House Pavus with an heir? It’s a sucky situation for the house (maybe Dorian has cousins?) but Halward and his wife only have themselves to blame assuming Dorian is an only child because of how much they hate each other. Even if they couldn’t have predicted he’d just refuse, what made them think Dorian would be guaranteed to survive long enough to have a kid? Tevinter is extremely bloodthirsty. That’s where the whole heir and spare thing comes from with noble houses.

 

 

 

Dorian never speaks of him again. When Cole does his mind reading thing, he sees Dorian is thinking of his dad and of some past fling, but never of Alexius… there's no way he was thinking of his father more than Alexius, who was the real reason he left for the South to being with.

Maybe not strictly canon but I feel like Dorian was thinking about it and Cole might have even brought it up. We don’t see all their conversations. Varric and Cole, for instance, regularly referenced other conversations they had had. And Cole mostly asks Dorian about Halward not because Dorian is obsessing about that but because Dorian gave Cole permission to ask questions and he’s confused about Dorian’s complex feelings towards his father. He hates him and loves him and knows he’s sorry but doesn’t know if he can forgive but he wants to and once thought he would do anything to make him happy but now that isn’t true and it’s all very confusing for Cole. Dorian’s feelings towards Alexius are probably easier for Cole to grasp. He hates seeing what happened to his mentor and regrets the whole situation but doesn’t know how to help. It’s hard to see someone he once respected so much brought so low. Dorian knows it’s not his fault what happened but still feels guilty for how he handled it. What can Cole add to that? And it’s not all that different than some other hurts Cole healed that he understood just fine.

 

 

According to the long time scale of events in Dorian's WoT2 entry, it was then 2 years before he heard from Alexius again, by which time he was tangled up in the Venatori. 

I have so many questions about that. Namely, Felix. Where were they? Why didn’t Felix contact anybody? Were the pair of them just missing for years? Did Felix know about the Venatori? Why didn’t he ever tell Dorian before he tells the Herald? He must have contacted him about Redcliffe.

 

 

I think that Alexius was no longer uppermost in his thoughts because in his mind, Alexius had died along with Felix.    The person in the cells wasn't Alexius.    He had probably got past the grief and was now at the point where you just recall the good things about the deceased.  

I had a different take on it. He does want to talk to Alexius eventually in the only outcome that might give Alexius any comfort and that stands a chance of helping him recover (though Dorian is not optimistic). Researching could help him move on in a way that, I don’t know, helping train apprentices or mixing potions might not.

 

 

But what would he say? It would be a terribly painful conversation for them both. Alexius doesn’t know he never could have succeeded (wish I knew something about why no one looked into Grey Wardens) and sees Dorian as betraying and stopping him. Dorian doesn’t want to see Alexius at rock bottom any more than he has to and he can’t help. He can’t save Felix. He can’t find the words to make this okay. He can’t improve Alexius’ future. Being powerless to help when going through his own grief is a bit much and I can see why Dorian would want to avoid something that painful, at least to start with. Given time…well I’d like to think they did have that talk and it’s getting better.

 

Thinking about Tranquil!Alexius…that would be the absolute worst. In addition to seeing someone who he knew very well and used to be extremely emotional just being an emotionless husk, any conversation with him would be so unsettling. He’d remember loving Felix and going mad with grief and how he cared about Dorian and was disappointed in him for leaving and he’d probably say as much but that now he can’t understand it. To my knowledge, all the Tranquil we meet agree being Tranquil was a positive for them or at least for the best. And Alexius, specifically, who nearly damned the world and didn’t care if he lived or died and now gets a chance to be useful…I really think he’d tell Dorian that being Tranquil was the right move for him. THAT is Alexius basically being dead, to me. And since the cure apparently prevents mages from ever having control of their emotions again…well, Alexius needs no help with that!

 

 

 

I'm glad I chose either to use him as an agent or give him to the mages, because Dorian is okay with that and Fiona is clearly not going to abuse him. 

It depends on what you mean by abuse. She won’t torture him, sure, and I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t just let the mages let out their frustrations on him. Still, it’s pretty telling that she’s hesitant about any punishment save executing him where she’s very gung-ho about it. If Alexius didn’t know his spell succeeded I can’t really imagine Fiona know about the other future (the inner circle does but they don’t want to tip their hand by telling the world they know about the assassination and all that and if we’re not telling people about walking in the fade why spread around time magic?). Fiona made a terrible choice that put her in a terrible position and almost cost her everything. If the mages aren’t essentially inquisition prisoners it’s only because the Herald is pretty much the only person in Thedas to still believe in their cause and is definitely doing this against everyone’s better judgement. Alexius did manipulate time to get there and take advantage and make an offer but she seems to blame him for all of it and everything he said he was going to do but didn’t get a chance to. I don’t know if he or the Venatori were just completely awful when the Herald wasn’t around or what or if she just had really strong feelings about being subservient because she behaves as though she saw the future world.

 

She is one of the last people I'd trust with his custody. And is inconveniencing them for a few weeks REALLY something he needs to make up for by spending the rest of his life in their service? I just feel, in the timeline where the Inquisitor stops him, they're not that big of victims and it's more being a Venatori and trying to help Corypheus get the anchor/erase the Inquisitor from time that he needs to answer for. Otherwise Fiona just signed a terrible apprenticeship agreement for hundreds of people who I'm assuming she didn't consult given how half the people in Redcliffe are complaining about it. 

 

What is equally sad in a way is that Alexius hadn't even realised he had successfully sent you into the future.   The Inquisitor says, you will die by my hand again and Alexius says "Wait, you mean the spell worked?"

Oh that part broke my heart. He’s there and he clearly doesn’t give a damn about anything. He’ll respond to imprisonment or research or serving or tranquility with the same slightly annoyed and resigned tone of voice (slightly classist with his “chained like a common criminal” complaint but his heart’s not in it) and then the Inquisitor mentions they killed him again and I just…I don’t blame him for thinking it doesn’t work. Dorian is so impressive with his ability to go from very shaken and having watched Alexius die and the Inquisitor’s people die and not knowing if he can fix it in enough time to smirking and telling Alexius he’ll have to do better. Of course it looks like Dorian managed to bring them from the portal directly back there. He just doesn’t know. And he is better off not knowing, I think, because he won’t be comforted hearing that even if he succeeds he wouldn’t be able to succeed to Corypheus’ demands and he is going to die anyway and Felix is a ghoul and he just locks himself in his room all day and only lets people in via an elaborate door puzzle for food. He’d rather think that he could have done it but the Inquisitor and Dorian interfered and he didn’t ruin everything and waste his time with Felix/not be there when he died for something that never would have worked. And at this point what’s the harm in him believing that? But when he hears that the spell worked…he doesn’t know what that means. Did he get them past the Breach? If he could manage just more time magic maybe it would be enough for Corypheus to save Felix. But it switches right to execution and given the Inquisitor’s attitude when picking that line I wonder if they just never answer that.

 

 

I agree with you on the point about how the hell did Clarel not notice what was happening to her mages; but what Alexius was doing was in no part for the greater good. He wants to save his son because after losing his wife he personally couldn't deal with the thought of his son dying…However, Alexius was quite content to let the world burn just to save his son... which for me isn't any less horrific.

I’m never a fan of letting the world end because you can’t deal with losing one person (Buffy and Dawn is the biggest offender. Just don’t mention ‘If not killing her means the world ends then the last thing she’ll see is me protecting her’ and we’re good. Sacrificing herself in her place is fine. Just that mindset and UGH) and actively participating in the world ending is worse.

 

 

But I do think he had more of a motivation than that. You can ask Alexius why he did the whole future and he says for his country and for his son. He goes on a rant about how Corypheus can raise Tevinter from its own ashes before he talks about saving Felix. In the prison banter (I’m so mad that you have to imprison him to get some great insight about him) he insists to Ruth that his crime was…well, I’ll post it.

 

Ruth: Whatever happens the Grey Wardens are disgraced. How can we bear the cost of Adamant?

Alexius: Don't talk of prices, Warden.

Ruth: What does it gain us to compare crimes?

Alexius: My crime was an attempt to restore power to a country sheltering the rest of you. Will the Wardens fight the Qunari when Tevinter crumbles? Will Orlais send Chevaliers against the battlefleets? You southerners have no idea.

 

And some of that could be his pretending to be a true believer while all he cares about is Felix but he was always concerned about improving and saving Tevinter and I don’t think it ever fully went away even if he put it on the back-burner. He didn’t just become a whole new person. Dorian talks about how Tevinter pretends the Qunari can be beaten and Alexius has a codex where he talks about how they need to stop pouring all their money into the war with the Qunari and start training the next generation of fighters for that war (trying to put his education ideas into terms the magisterium might agree with). He knows that the Imperium is in deep trouble and while Corypheus is very clearly Bad News, if he’s going to side with him anyway for Felix’s sake (and not mention it to him presumably because he knows what Felix will say) then he can also see a benefit that Corypheus has enough power to finally end the war and crush the Qunari.

 

Really, the damage Alexius did in Redcliffe wasn't that bad, you and Dorian stop him before he actually does anything more than oust Teagan.

That’s complicated because he doesn’t set out to end the world. It’s not his intention. But we know it will happen and he will help make it possible. We can’t judge him for things he hasn’t done but we can’t give him a free pass because we stopped him before he could commit further villainy. It’s like time travelling to the day after Ostagar where Loghain retreated and Cailan is dead and we know all the crap he’s about to pull (not that he intended it to devolve into civil war and not that he knew he needed the Grey Wardens) and what do you do about that? But really, at the end of the day he chased some people off. He ordered the shards be found (for…reasons. He wasn’t trying to barricade himself in just yet, maybe Corypheus wanted it?) and he knew what that would mean. But he also kicked all the Tranquil out, supposedly because they freaked him out (which…yes) but he doesn’t seem like the type to sabotage himself because of his delicate sensibilities. Half-hearted commitment to this whole villainy thing and he could have killed Teagan or imprisoned him. Teagan was so lucky Alexius was the one he was dealing with and not one of the other ones we meet. We know how badly this can all go, even if all we do is side with the templars and the world doesn’t end, but all that actually happened was Teagan, the Chantry, and the Tranquil were asked to leave and Alexius made it pretty clear he didn’t actually give a damn what he promised Fiona and what the mages wanted because they signed a contract and while he hadn’t done anything yet their lives would be going downhill in the future.

 

 

 

The charges brought against him were stretching it a bit too. Apostasy? The Inquisition wasn't part of the Chantry, why would that be on the list? Also you can recruit him 30 seconds later specifically for his brilliant mind and "apostasy" skills.

It’s lampshaded with the Inquisitor asking what the precedent is for ripping a hole in time. What Alexius did wasn’t technically illegal probably because they didn’t make a law for it but it really, really should be. We do know that that one Chantry sister who stayed in Redcliffe that the Venatori all laughed whenever the Maker came up which might be enough if not being Andrastian is a crime (though not usually enforced, I wouldn’t think). Or maybe kicking the Chantry out was a problem. Though she was under the impression that the Chantry had declared four Exalted Marches against Tevinter maybe the Venatori were laughing because she actually knows very little and gets obvious things wrong.

[DreamerM]

However, Alexius was quite content to let the world burn just to save his son... which for me isn't any less horrific.

 

For me it's a bit more understandable, just because at least Alexius has a small-scale, concrete goal that he believed he could see. Clarel was promised she could end all blights forever, which is one of those things where, if she thought about it, she should have realized if that would work, it would have been done by now. Solas says as much that burrowing through the earth looking for Archdemons is "madness" and "going to make everything worse," and as much of a trickster as he is, he's the guy who would know.

Alexius at least was blinded by grief and guilt. Clarel seems to have done what she did because she never imagined omg, this Calling thing means we all might have to die. Oh noes. Who could have seen this coming? We must immediately start sacrificing each other on blood alters because this shady Tevinter guy says all we need are some demons and we can destroy all darkspawn forever. It'll totally work. What the hell, Clarel?

Alexius at least knew, or thought he knew, what he was doing. He would move heaven and earth, literally, to save his son. His problem is he has no reason to believe Corytheus could or would actually save Felix...and also, Gray Wardens must be too secretive for their own good, since it probably should be common knowledge that if you catch the Blight, joining the Wardens can save you. I have a hard time imagining the Wardens would complain about all the new recruits.

 

And lets face it, it would be cool to see "Gray Warden Felix" in a possible future game.

[Gervaise]

Thank you for posting the exchanges between Alexius and Ruth in the cells.   I agree it is annoying when you don't hear things like that because you didn't make that choice.  (You would actually have to make two specific choices to get this).   It is the same with choosing Champions of the Just and getting the whole plotline with Calpernia, where you discover more about Corypheus and her motivations.  In view of what Alexius says to Ruth, I think that reinforces my little theory that he had met with Calpernia and they did have a lot in common.   It is interesting that Dorian is perfectly willing to forgive her for her patriotism for Tevinter, presumably because she does reject Corypheus when she realises how he was misusing everyone, not just her, but seem less willing to condone Alexius.   I assume that is because in the dark future it does seem like he sacrificed the world simply to save Felix and has not actively rejected the leader he was fighting for in the present, just has given up because he no longer cares any more.

 

On the Apostasy charge, it is my understanding that to be guilty you have to have believed in a particular faith in the first place.    He can't be an apostate from the southern Chantry because the Imperial Chantry doesn't recognise them.   May be that was a charge suggested by the Black Divine when Tevinter disowned him.  Is it obligatory to worship the Maker in Tevinter?   I guess it must be.    Plus if he were an apostate, then a devout Herald should have been given the option to forgive him in Andraste's name, although I have to admit he didn't seem very repentant of his actions.     To be honest I think they just decided to "throw the book at him" and it looks good to the faithful onlookers to be seen judging an "apostate".   It sends out a warning to anyone else thinking of taking up worship of other gods.   It would seem that was another dialogue written with a human Inquisitor in mind because technically my Dalish Lavellan was an apostate too.   Isn't that what the Chantry accused the Dalish of all those years ago, turning away from the god of Andraste?

[DreamerM]

 

Ruth: Whatever happens the Grey Wardens are disgraced. How can we bear the cost of Adamant?

Alexius: Don't talk of prices, Warden.

Ruth: What does it gain us to compare crimes?

Alexius: My crime was an attempt to restore power to a country sheltering the rest of you. Will the Wardens fight the Qunari when Tevinter crumbles? Will Orlais send Chevaliers against the battlefleets? You southerners have no idea.

I badly want to hear more of this dialog. Is this all? Do they talk any more?

 

The Qunari invasion of Tevinter has been looming for three games now. I will be shocked if it doesn't play a big role in a DA4 that takes place in Tavinter.