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[Gervaise]

Unless you support the Qun, which I know some people do, stopping the Qun overrunning Thedas is the one concrete reason you can have for saving Tevinter even if you don't like their politics.   Alexius is right; it's what has been keeping them occupied all these years that has confined their activity to the north, not the peace agreement that the other nations signed and we know the Qun are only respecting as it suits them.   Trying to take over the south in one swift coup of the leadership was actually a brilliant tactical gambit on the Qun's part, even if it didn't work out.   By generally taking over without having to expend forces in battle, this would then leave them at practically full strength to turn against Tevinter, now isolated and alone.   It is noticeable that if you check the epilogue screens that are associated with a Bull betrayal, there seems to be some hint that the Qun leadership have tried to mollify the Divine over their Dragon Breath Plot, disowning the participants as always, and are trying to get her to assist against Tevinter, if nothing else in staying out of the war.   It will be interesting to see how that plot develops because by attacking mainland Tevinter once more in force they are both a threat to the rest of Thedas and actually attacking a nation that believes in the Maker, even if not actually recognising the southern Chantry.   Will the Divine break the Llomerryn Treaty to order an Exalted March to aid Tevinter or will she aid the Qun by refusing to get involved?

[nightscrawl]

... (wish I knew something about why no one looked into Grey Wardens)...

With this I assume you're referring to going to the Wardens for help with Felix. But the Wardens don't "cure" the person when they are infected with the blight. The Joining makes the person a Grey Warden and they are then bound to that fate and life, including the eventual Calling. In addition, the Joining has a decent failure rate, so he could have died during the procedure anyway. Presumably, Alexius wanted his son to be restored to his former self and to live the life he wanted him to live, so that leaves the Wardens out.

 

Even so, we don't know that he didn't consult with the Wardens initially. Through magic, he was able to prolong Felix's life by a couple of years after infection. Part of his initial effort in doing that might have been research into everything known about the blight, which might have included consulting the Wardens. Even in the future he is still experimenting. We just can't know what he did or didn't do.

[Gervaise]

There is also that odd small dialogue Dorian has out in the wilds about what it is like in the Anderfels and Weisshaupt Fortress in particular.  It seems highly unlikely that Dorian would have chosen to go there after leaving Alexius but it would make sense if Alexius had sent him there to find out if the Wardens knew anything that could help Felix.   It was one of those annoying little snippets of information that was never expanded upon and you couldn't ask him about it.    It would explain why Alexius did think that Corypheus was his only hope for saving Felix because he had exhausted all other options.

[Gervaise]

I am finding it pleasant being able to learn things about Dorian even after all this time.   I've been researching a bit about the judgement of Alexius and it does seem curious that the charges would appear to have been brought against him by Tevinter but they have graciously allowed the Inquisitor to judge on the matter.   Then when the dialogue option has the Inquisitor focus on the apostasy, they link it to ripping apart the fabric of time.   What on earth has that to do with apostasy?   Oh well.

 

Then I thought I would load up the judgment of Erimond.   Dorian approves if you consign him to prison but still disapproves if you make him Tranquil.   Glad to see that our darling Dorian is consistent on these matters even with a snake like Erimond.   Interesting how Erimond seems to object to his fate on account of the fact he is a Lord (Altus).   Do you suppose there is a law in Tevinter that Altus cannot be made tranquil and it only applies to the lower orders?   In some ways that would be a comfort to me because I'd know that at least some bastard Magister can't bring a charge that would have Dorian made tranquil.   I don't think I could cope with seeing that, even if it did result in a quest to restore him.

[Sarah1281]

 His problem is he has no reason to believe Corytheus could or would actually save Felix...

I'm torn on whether I think Corypheus could save Felix. In the future, he's a ghoul but very clearly not dead like he dies in game so something must have happened. Whether it's Alexius continuing to tinker and managing to keep him breathing if nothing else or if that's how Corypheus kept him alive I don't know (I kind of wish we could bring his horrifying Blight research back with us because since it's been done - or would be - they might as well get use out of it as I'm sure they learned a ton but on the other hand it might encourage people to set up similar experiments which would be Not Okay). But since he can control the Blight could he remove it from someone? Or keep it present but minimal at least? I feel like he probably could but he doesn't because he is the worst and doesn't care about actually rewarding followers (Calpernia does everything he wants perfectly and her reward is that binding? She'd understand eventually? Whatever) and that just makes him that much worse if Alexius sacrificed everything to help him and Corypheus just doesn't. Maybe, being an ancient magister, he just didn't have any use for Felix who was probably a worse mage than freaking Jowan. 

 

On the Apostasy charge, it is my understanding that to be guilty you have to have believed in a particular faith in the first place.   Technically I think he's just charged with it and you judge him. Of course, while they say they're charged with these crimes there's no option to investigate or disbelieve that they happened but I guess if you didn't believe this one you'd give a lighter sentence and there are a bunch of other charges anyway. 

 

 

I badly want to hear more of this dialog. Is this all? Do they talk any more? No, that's it for them. 

 

We do have a good one with Samson and Alexius, though, where it seems he might be questioning his previous choices or at least torturing himself with what might have beens. 

 

Alexius: Considering the question?

Samson: I'm not a mind reader Magister.

Alexius: You were closer to him than any of us.

Samson: Could Corypheus have delivered? Would Tevinter be the lords of creation if you hadn't failed? Maybe. He has the power. But look how many rose up to stop him.

 

And then there's Servis whining about how he needs another trial because prison is terrible and he can probably totally be ransomed and Alexius just has this line "You had one Servis. It brought you here" and Servis snaps back that at least he hasn't been disowned which ouch. 

 

 Unless you support the Qun, which I know some people do, stopping the Qun overrunning Thedas is the one concrete reason you can have for saving Tevinter even if you don't like their politics.  

And even if you do like the Qun and think it's something you can live by (I highly doubt the Rivaini's version of the Qun would be acceptable to them if they ever reinvaded since they seem to have adapted it to fit their culture and Qunari aren't big on variation and choice) there's a big difference between choosing to embrace it and wanting the Qunari to brainwash or kill everyone you've ever known in an invasion. Tevinter would probably invade everyone themselves and try to reconquer them if they could but that's just something they'd dearly like to do (like I'm sure Orlais always low-key wants to take back Ferelden) and they're much more likely to not do that for practical reasons than the Qunari, with their more stringent doctrinal demands, are. The Qunari don't have to succeed in conquering all of Thedas to murder millions. 

 

And the Qunari have this very smart and very annoying tendency of having people go out and try to conquer parts of the south and then disowning them and facing no consequences when that person fails. No one else gets away with the diplomatic crap the Qunari do. First Kirkwall, then in Trespasser? Sure all these high-ranking Qunari just act completely on their own of their own volition going against what the Qunari want because they are so devoted to the Qun and want to convert everyone. That's believable. I hadn't considered about the alliance and trying to get the south to act against its own interest by getting them to leave Tevinter to its fate because everyone agrees its pretty much The Worst and they haven't really had to deal with the Qunari as a large-scale threat for centuries. 

 

 But the Wardens don't "cure" the person when they are infected with the blight. The Joining makes the person a Grey Warden and they are then bound to that fate and life, including the eventual Calling. In addition, the Joining has a decent failure rate, so he could have died during the procedure anyway. Presumably, Alexius wanted his son to be restored to his former self and to live the life he wanted him to live, so that leaves the Wardens out.

It's a good point we don't know just what happened and I can see how joining the Wardens would be a last-ditch scenario, especially with the fact that there was a decent chance Felix might have just dropped dead on the spot and he went to ridiculous lengths to prevent that. In fact, Joining failure is the best reason I can see for that not coming up at some point. The ideal would be curing Felix but you'd think by the time he got around to working with a talking darkspawn to conquer the world and rip a whole in the Fade from which demons are pouring out (basically indulging in what Dorian called the worst excesses of Tevinter and if Alexius was held up as the exemplar of men he must have been pretty similar to him morally which means the only real morally dubious things I imagine he'd get up to were potentially keeping slaves, killing political rivals, and the southern but not northern definition of blood magic where you only use your own blood or the blood of willing others) he'd pick the Grey Wardens over nothing. But if it could kill Felix on the spot...

 

I've seen it suggested the Wardens might not have wanted Felix who was a terrible mage and we don't know had any non-magical fighting training but he could learn that and be very useful administratively and, more importantly, are they really going to want to turn down a magister this desperate to save his son? Think of the mileage they could get out of that one. He'd do whatever they wanted forever. 

Then I thought I would load up the judgment of Erimond.  Dorian approves if you consign him to prison but still disapproves if you make him Tranquil.  Glad to see that our darling Dorian is consistent on these matters even with a snake like Erimond.

He definitely is. It reminds me of when you mention you came to get the mages when Fiona is fretting about where to go (like seriously, Fiona, how much crap did we just go through? You're not alone in the world even if you might not like the terms) and he says the Inquisition should give better terms than Alexius did and then pointedly rhetorically asks if the Inquisition is better than that. It would kind of be hard not to be but I guess he's thinking that they could just go back in the circles and that would technically be worse than them all be indentured servants for a decade. But he saw the future! The Inquisition doesn't turn people into lyrium! 

 

Still very impressed he kind of sticks his neck out for people he doesn't know and has no reason to think positively about when his own position is extremely precarious because it's the right thing to do. 

 

 

Do you suppose there is a law in Tevinter that Altus cannot be made tranquil and it only applies to the lower orders? It could be but I don't think so. It's definitely not used against Altus frequently (and I think Ermond - who also doesn't get disowned, thanks Tevinter. I read a theory once that Alexius gets disowned more because he was a reformer and thus a pain in the ass than because Tevinter cared about what he did or appeasing the south) but that's because they're so well-connected. Becoming Tranquil is a punishment for people who are politically dead. It's like having the templars sent after you or having it come out you were a secret blood mage the whole time. It usually wouldn't happen to someone on the top but if they tried to end slavery or something it could happen to them. 

[Gervaise]

Dorian always sticks his neck out even for people he doesn't know.    He does it in Champions of the Just whether you just went to Therinfall or whether you went to Redcliffe first and then rejected him.     Then he stands there in the Chantry and argues with Cullen over the fact that Cullen wants to drop the mountain on everyone.   I just loved his line there "Dying is a last resort.  You think like a blood mage."      Dorian might be a mage but he is actually the nearest you get in this game to a knight in shining armour who always does what is right, no matter the cost to himself.   It is probably why I love him so.   Unlike other characters, Dorian has never let me down.

[Arlee]

For me it's a bit more understandable, just because at least Alexius has a small-scale, concrete goal that he believed he could see. Clarel was promised she could end all blights forever, which is one of those things where, if she thought about it, she should have realized if that would work, it would have been done by now. Solas says as much that burrowing through the earth looking for Archdemons is "madness" and "going to make everything worse," and as much of a trickster as he is, he's the guy who would know.

Alexius at least was blinded by grief and guilt. Clarel seems to have done what she did because she never imagined omg, this Calling thing means we all might have to die. Oh noes. Who could have seen this coming? We must immediately start sacrificing each other on blood alters because this shady Tevinter guy says all we need are some demons and we can destroy all darkspawn forever. It'll totally work. What the hell, Clarel?

Alexius at least knew, or thought he knew, what he was doing. He would move heaven and earth, literally, to save his son. His problem is he has no reason to believe Corytheus could or would actually save Felix...and also, Gray Wardens must be too secretive for their own good, since it probably should be common knowledge that if you catch the Blight, joining the Wardens can save you. I have a hard time imagining the Wardens would complain about all the new recruits.

 

And lets face it, it would be cool to see "Gray Warden Felix" in a possible future game.

 

It's definitely more understandable, but it's still pretty equally awful to me. Both are also great case studies in how fear can drive people to do horrible things. About the Gray Wardens, I think Nightscrawl covered the most likely thing there. I feel like Alexius probably would have looked at it as losing Felix in a different way.

 

The Qunari invasion of Tevinter has been looming for three games now. I will be shocked if it doesn't play a big role in a DA4 that takes place in Tavinter. 

 

Well if we go by the end of Trespasser it is very heavily hinted things will be happening with the Qun there as well. I think they'll likely bring a real invasion force this time which according to Iron Bull is something Tavinter hasn't seen in a long time.

 

Then I thought I would load up the judgment of Erimond.   Dorian approves if you consign him to prison but still disapproves if you make him Tranquil.   Glad to see that our darling Dorian is consistent on these matters even with a snake like Erimond.   Interesting how Erimond seems to object to his fate on account of the fact he is a Lord (Altus).   Do you suppose there is a law in Tevinter that Altus cannot be made tranquil and it only applies to the lower orders?   In some ways that would be a comfort to me because I'd know that at least some bastard Magister can't bring a charge that would have Dorian made tranquil.   I don't think I could cope with seeing that, even if it did result in a quest to restore him.

 

I don't think there's likely a law against it, probably more likely it just isn't done. That being said as much as I don't like the whole Tranquil thing, I like picking that option for him because it's the only things which makes him freak out... and I really really dislike him.

 

Dorian always sticks his neck out even for people he doesn't know.    He does it in Champions of the Just whether you just went to Therinfall or whether you went to Redcliffe first and then rejected him.     Then he stands there in the Chantry and argues with Cullen over the fact that Cullen wants to drop the mountain on everyone.   I just loved his line there "Dying is a last resort.  You think like a blood mage."      Dorian might be a mage but he is actually the nearest you get in this game to a knight in shining armour who always does what is right, no matter the cost to himself.   It is probably why I love him so.   Unlike other characters, Dorian has never let me down.

 

It's worth noting Dorian is also arguing to save his own neck there. He also says something bout he didn't rush all this way just so we can bury him under a pile of rocks. I agree he will stick his neck out for people he doesn't know, but I don't think this part is a support of that argument

[Sarah1281]

Maybe arguing to not kill everyone isn't sticking his neck out when he's at Haven but the fact he even flees Redcliffe without being caught and races in front of an invading army, knowing he'll be caught in the invasion and he has no reason to think he'd be believed or would succeed...that qualifies.

[Gervaise]

I also think that whilst Dorian says about pulling a mountain down on him, he likely would have had a good chance of getting away in time.   He is pretty fleet of foot after all.   However, he has been helping the wounded and dying.   He knows Rodderick and those like him won't be able to get away and Dorian doesn't intend leaving them behind.  So if Cullen pulls the mountain down, Dorian will die because he won't abandon the wounded.    That is the difference.   Besides I still admired his b****s in speaking out.   He's a foreign mage in a dangerous situation where they are being attacked by mages, there are a lot of Templars around the place and their commanding officer is the one he's remonstrating with.   Go for it, Dorian! 

[DreamerM]

 "Dying is a last resort.  You think like a blood mage."

Someone should have told Clarel. Sweet Jeebus...

 

I'm torn on whether I think Corypheus could save Felix....... since he can control the Blight could he remove it from someone?

 

I have to think if he could, making Felix into a ghoul would not be necessary. All of that research seemed more like what some desperate mage would attempt, rather then what someone who could literally control the Blight would use. It's possible Corypheus just doesn't feel the slightest compulsion to deliver on his promises.
 

We do have a good one with Samson and Alexius, though, where it seems he might be questioning his previous choices or at least torturing himself with what might have beens. 

 

Alexius: Considering the question?

Samson: I'm not a mind reader Magister.

Alexius: You were closer to him than any of us.

Samson: Could Corypheus have delivered? Would Tevinter be the lords of creation if you hadn't failed? Maybe. He has the power. But look how many rose up to stop him.

 

And then there's Servis whining about how he needs another trial because prison is terrible and he can probably totally be ransomed and Alexius just has this line "You had one Servis. It brought you here" and Servis snaps back that at least he hasn't been disowned which ouch. 

 

Is there a complilation of all of this banter? It seems relevant.
 

Tevinter would probably invade everyone themselves and try to reconquer them if they could but that's just something they'd dearly like to do (like I'm sure Orlais always low-key wants to take back Ferelden) and they're much more likely to not do that for practical reasons than the Qunari, with their more stringent doctrinal demands, are.

 

Given a choice between the Tevinter and the Qunari, I will pick Tevinter every time. They may be a bunch of slavery-happy blood mage supervillains, but at least they are capable of free thought. People like Dorian, Felix, and Mae hint at what Tevinter might be if it reformed. Pretty sure the Qunari killed or lobotomized all of their potential reformers a long time ago.

 

Thing is, with Solas still in the wind, we have a wild card in play. Solas hates Tevinter, but he hates the Qun even more and will take steps to keep it from taking over while he works on his end-the-world project thing. One of the many reasons Tevinter is the likely location for the next game is, in addition to all of the characters we now know are there, in one of his early-game banters with Dorian, Solas says "the Imperium is not the safest place for an elf," not even an elf who is a god. Most, if not all, of his agents are elves too, which is going to make operating his spy network inside Tevinter very complicated and dangerous. In this case, Tevinter being The Worst, Really, Just The Worst actually works in our favor...

In a DA4 set in Tevinter, you could possibly improve things for elves. Only downside is that might give Solas's network an in.

 

And the Qunari have this very smart and very annoying tendency of having people go out and try to conquer parts of the south and then disowning them and facing no consequences when that person fails. No one else gets away with the diplomatic crap the Qunari do.

No kidding! How do they keep getting away with this? I know no one wants to ally with Tevinter which is The Worst, Really, Just the Worst, but if they keep doing sheet like this, eventually someone's going to have to push back.

Plus the Arishok is the old companion of the Hero of the Fifth Blight and former comrade-in-arms of the possible King of Fereldan. Why does he keep ok-ing these doomed-to-fail attacks? What's his long game here?

 

like seriously, Fiona, how much crap did we just go through?

I have never wanted to hit an NPC more then when Fiona hummed, "it could have gone so much worse" and insisted that even with everything that happened, she would start the mage rebellion "all over again."

Slap.
Fiona. I saw where your choices would have led us. It could not be worse. If things are better for you now, it is NOT because of any choices you made. You've done nothing but make mistakes since the moment you voted to leave the Chantry. Never forget all of the blood you have to answer for. I won't. 

I can't stand Fiona. Really I can't.

[Gervaise]

Fiona does not endear herself.   I have gone on repeatedly how annoyed I was that she was still the mouthpiece of the mages after all that.   It's why I prefer conscripting, simply because I am actually then in charge of them.   Then I get Leliana as Divine, they form the Bright Hand and actually seem to get the best end result in Trespasser, since for some reason they seem to be more assured of themselves than if you allied with them.  Probably that did have something to do with Fiona being their leader. 

 

I think Solas' agents in Tevinter may operate very much as the Qunari ones do.   They are probably slaves, the Qunari even tell them to sell themselves back into slavery.   Solas wouldn't do that but he might suggest they pretend being liberati.   As was noted in Masked Empire about servants, no one really pays them much attention, they are like part of the furniture, just attending to your needs, but this allows them to eavesdrop on conversations while passing round the drinks, or whatever.   So you can actually find out more as a slave or a liberati than someone in a higher position.    It is reasonably high risk, since you could end up being used in a blood magic ritual, but it does allow you to blend in.    With a country that is so full of slaves and liberati, who is really going to notice one more on the scene?   You'd just think your neighbour must have made a new purchase at the slave market.     Solas' agents also have the advantage that they have use of the eluvians.   There must be some located in Tevinter and likely they were moved into important places for study, like the Circle, archive library, Archon's palace.   Just the sort of places Solas might be wanting to acquire information.     Luckily Dorian knows to keep an eye out but the trouble is with everyone so mistrustful of everyone else, it might be hard keeping tabs on everywhere. 

[Gervaise]

A bit of trivia concerning the taint that I've just picked up from the Core Rulebook.   Apparently there are certain herbs that can counteract the Blight disease if administered in timely and appropriate fashion.   It claims the Grey Wardens have disseminated this information across Thedas.   May be over the years people have forgotten this because the only examples I know of are the dog keeper at Ostagar, where dog seems to have been cured permanently, and whatever it was that Marethari gave Mahariel to delay its onset. 

 

So theory.  Alexius knew about the "cure" that Marethari used, which delayed the onset in Felix.   He then sent Dorian to Weisshaupt to see if they had any other ideas and they suggested the other herb that was used on dog.   This actually didn't permanently cure it but simply delayed it for years rather than months, so of course we wouldn't know that because we didn't see dog again after DAO and in any case dogs live less time than humans anyway.    Dorian was probably also advised that magic would make the herb more potent.   He returned to Alexius and so they were able to give Felix what Dorian said to his father would extend Felix's life years instead of just months.    However, that wasn't good enough for Alexius and he just kept on trying to find that permanent cure.    

[Sarah1281]

 It's possible Corypheus just doesn't feel the slightest compulsion to deliver on his promises.

I mean, I just don't believe he does but even if he did and he could Alexius still failed him by not being able to go back pre-Breach which is why he was coming to kill him at the end. 

 

 

 Is there a complilation of all of this banter? It seems relevant.

Yes. Here is the transcript to all the prisoner dialogue and here is a audio compilation of it (not including Samson's cutscene). 

 

 Given a choice between the Tevinter and the Qunari, I will pick Tevinter every time. They may be a bunch of slavery-happy blood mage supervillains, but at least they are capable of free thought.

The qunari have spent too long coasting on "at least we're not Tevinter" and we may be about to get the exact opposite. 

 

 

I have never wanted to hit an NPC more then when Fiona hummed, "it could have gone so much worse" and insisted that even with everything that happened, she would start the mage rebellion "all over again." She makes me so mad. She's so reasonable when you meet her in Grand Royeaux and of course she is because it's on her terms. The chantry and the templars are self-destructing and the mages are sitting pretty in Redcliffe, not to mention people blaming the Herald for what happened means they're not blaming the mages. 

 

So much of what she does, while terrible choices, make sense. She really wanted to rebel, having a taste of freedom and knowing she can handle it as a Grey Warden. She sees the abuses of Kirkwall and other places but she doesn't want to force people into it. Still, when the vote for independence comes it's never going to be unanimous. Should she stop all of them for reaching for freedom because there are people like Vivienne and Connor in the world? She takes a risk and tries for freedom and I get that. Maybe that was always coming. 

 

It makes sense why she and the others, before word spreads about the prisoner, are deathly afraid they will be blamed for killing the Divine and they will all be wiped out. It makes sense they aren't thinking clearly and when Alexius shows up a day or two after the Conclave and he makes all sorts of promises of protection and becoming Tevinter citizens and not everyone will have to fight they'd sort of go with it even if they seem to pretty immediately regret it. If she were thinking clearly, she wouldn't jump to Alexius had no idea the conclave would blow up (no one did) and he used time magic to get there so quick. She should have suspected the conclave was supposed to blow up and Tevinter must be the culprits but not thinking clearly. The chantry and templars have been willing to kill them all for less and the conclave and the reasonable Divine who "let" the mages rebel was their last, best hope. 

 

But then she refuses to own it. She signs away her future and the future of everyone (no one seems to be consulted about if they should all be indentured to Alexius or not) and then repeatedly interrupts negotiations she put Alexius in a position to have in her place saying Alexius can't do things she doesn't like and demanding to know if the mages should get a say in their own future. She takes the fact that Alistair and/or Anora just kicks them out of Redcliffe and doesn't impose any other punishments on them (which is totally fair because they allied with Alexius. If he took them prisoner the monarch might still want them gone because of all the trouble they attract but it wouldn't be their fault) and doesn't see it as a gift but instead frets about where she will go. Well, the Herald who just saved them from the Venatori says he wants to take them. Even if he conscripts them it's not being in the service of a Tevinter magister who will use them all for military for ten years and they can prove themselves saving the world and shutting down the breach.

 

And if she is granted the miracle no one expects or thinks is a good idea and she certainly doesn't deserve of being a full ally? She still sighs and goes "I guess I'll take your offer since there isn't a better one." This despite the fact that, without Alexius, after getting a chance to calm down an alliance is exactly what she wants and can only be a good thing for her! Honestly, I don't know if there's a bug or they didn't bother recording two versions but she has multiple lines where she's just so reluctant about the alliance it sounds more fitting if I had conscripted her. And she seems to blame the fact that she signed the stupidest deal ever entirely on Alexius and takes no responsibility herself. Sure, if she had said no they weren't about to take that for an answer but she didn't say no and she freely entered into this arrangement. But by all means he deserves to be executed so no one will ever try something like that again. Something like...offering her a contract to sign that might be obviously not a great idea for her people? Like damn, way to completely pass the buck. I was waiting to find out he was using blood magic to control her mind or something but no. She just crumbles under pressure. 

 

I really hope if Alexius is assigned to research magic (and possibly if he is given to the mages but I'm sure they'll be so petty he wouldn't even bother. Fiona's line about how her people already have some ideas about what he could do did not instill me with confidence. He'll be off emptying chamberpots and mucking out the stables) he shares what he knows about fighting Blight sickness. It couldn't save Felix but it could be a solid foundation for one day finding a cure or, if nothing else, giving those afflicted the same time Felix got. 

 

I'm really curious about the Alexius-Dorian fight that ended their relationship. Dorian claimed he was young and thought he had all the answers and told Alexius to snap out of it and move on but I feel he must have been being too self-deprecating looking back because he thinks he handled that all wrong. I just cannot see him telling Alexius to just watch his son die and not do anything and to move on and get over Felix's impending death before he even died. No one is that tactless. I could maybe see him trying to make Alexius see that they weren't going to be able to cure him or extend his life past what it has already been extended and to spend more time with Felix while he could, appreciating what he has and making the most of it. Of course Alexius wouldn't want to hear it because keeping Felix alive was more important than family time and Dorian would just be so frustrated because if there was anything to do of course he'd do it but they had hit a dead end and Alexius is just wasting all this time and it's not helping Felix.

 

And then thinking about when Alexius came back and he probably looked much better because it had been a few years but he at least had some sort of plan now (even if it was terrible and he was probably in a better headspace when he and Dorian separated). Dorian would have been so happy to see him and Alexius probably did go along with it and reunite, maybe let Dorian apologize or semi-apologize for the fight to help pave the way for recruitment, then he tries to recruit him...but what does he even try to recruit him to do? What does he say? Dorian must have shut him down immediately or Alexius must not have been sure he'd say yes because Dorian doesn't seem to know about the Venatori. He doesn't get why Alexius at Redcliffe and what he wants with a few hundred southern mages. He likely said something about Tevinter supremacy because it's the party line (meaning, at most, that Tevinter needed to be strengthened to keep it afloat) and Dorian just didn't accept he believed any of that, as he wrote his friend. 

[DreamerM]

I think Solas' agents in Tevinter may operate very much as the Qunari ones do.   They are probably slaves, the Qunari even tell them to sell themselves back into slavery.   Solas wouldn't do that but he might suggest they pretend being liberati. 

Solas's big thing is freedom and free will. He became who he is by freeing slaves, even at the cost of turning on his own. He's not going to demand his people sell themselves into slavery, not even in service of building his network.

And I can't imagine the life of an elven Liberati is much safer then the life of a slave. In fact it might even be less safe, since no one has to worry that killing you will rob your master of a valuable resource. Think of the lot of free Blacks deep in the Antebellum South. They lived a rather precarious existence. Solas isn't going to demand that of his people, not with the end of the world imminent. I think it's more likely he'll try and go around Tevinter, if he can.

Although he'd probably love it if The Dread Wolf could somehow inspire a slave uprising in Tevinter. That would be his best-case scenario for disrupting a Tevinter-based Anti-Solas Task Force.

 

The qunari have spent too long coasting on "at least we're not Tevinter" and we may be about to get the exact opposite. 

According to Dorian, a lot of that is Tevinter pride being tied up in the go-it-alone mentality. Move in a new leadership and that could change, especially if it came with some much-needed reforms.

I know there's nothing to support this, but I imagine in the next game, we MAY have the chance to get Dorian elected Archon. He wouldn't be the first...or second...or third....player companion character to wind up in charge of a country.

What's interesting about this is according to Dorian's grave stone in the Fade, his nightmare is "temptation." Yet we aren't told what he is so tempted by. Sex? He can have as much of that as he likes. He's not tempted by power, at least not that we've seen ... yet. And he scoffs at the traditional Tevinter obsessions with blood magic and past glory and blah blah blah. So what, exactly, is the temptation that scares him so much?

It feels like they are setting something up there, but I don't know what it would be.
 

She makes me so mad. She's so reasonable when you meet her in Grand Royeaux and of course she is because it's on her terms. The chantry and the templars are self-destructing and the mages are sitting pretty in Redcliffe, not to mention people blaming the Herald for what happened means they're not blaming the mages

 

So much of what she does, while terrible choices, make sense. She really wanted to rebel, having a taste of freedom and knowing she can handle it as a Grey Warden. She sees the abuses of Kirkwall and other places but she doesn't want to force people into it. Still, when the vote for independence comes it's never going to be unanimous. Should she stop all of them for reaching for freedom because there are people like Vivienne and Connor in the world? She takes a risk and tries for freedom and I get that. Maybe that was always coming. 

 

It makes sense why she and the others, before word spreads about the prisoner, are deathly afraid they will be blamed for killing the Divine and they will all be wiped out. It makes sense they aren't thinking clearly and when Alexius shows up a day or two after the Conclave and he makes all sorts of promises of protection and becoming Tevinter citizens and not everyone will have to fight they'd sort of go with it even if they seem to pretty immediately regret it. If she were thinking clearly, she wouldn't jump to Alexius had no idea the conclave would blow up (no one did) and he used time magic to get there so quick. She should have suspected the conclave was supposed to blow up and Tevinter must be the culprits but not thinking clearly. The chantry and templars have been willing to kill them all for less and the conclave and the reasonable Divine who "let" the mages rebel was their last, best hope. 

 

But then she refuses to own it. She signs away her future and the future of everyone (no one seems to be consulted about if they should all be indentured to Alexius or not) and then repeatedly interrupts negotiations she put Alexius in a position to have in her place saying Alexius can't do things she doesn't like and demanding to know if the mages should get a say in their own future. She takes the fact that Alistair and/or Anora just kicks them out of Redcliffe and doesn't impose any other punishments on them (which is totally fair because they allied with Alexius. If he took them prisoner the monarch might still want them gone because of all the trouble they attract but it wouldn't be their fault) and doesn't see it as a gift but instead frets about where she will go. Well, the Herald who just saved them from the Venatori says he wants to take them. Even if he conscripts them it's not being in the service of a Tevinter magister who will use them all for military for ten years and they can prove themselves saving the world and shutting down the breach.

 

And if she is granted the miracle no one expects or thinks is a good idea and she certainly doesn't deserve of being a full ally? She still sighs and goes "I guess I'll take your offer since there isn't a better one." This despite the fact that, without Alexius, after getting a chance to calm down an alliance is exactly what she wants and can only be a good thing for her! Honestly, I don't know if there's a bug or they didn't bother recording two versions but she has multiple lines where she's just so reluctant about the alliance it sounds more fitting if I had conscripted her. And she seems to blame the fact that she signed the stupidest deal ever entirely on Alexius and takes no responsibility herself. Sure, if she had said no they weren't about to take that for an answer but she didn't say no and she freely entered into this arrangement. But by all means he deserves to be executed so no one will ever try something like that again. Something like...offering her a contract to sign that might be obviously not a great idea for her people? Like damn, way to completely pass the buck. I was waiting to find out he was using blood magic to control her mind or something but no. She just crumbles under pressure.

She is unwilling to own her mistakes, and yet gives no one but herself credit for her successes. Talking to her in Skyhold and hearing her gloat about how well things have worked out and how she would do it all over again... You know who might NOT do it all over again, Fiona? ME. Because you are a self-righteous, short-sighted, weak-willed wreaking ball of a woman and if I didn't need you to keep the peace with the mages, I'd tell you to get the hell out of my castle.

Ahem.

[Squinterific]

 

What's interesting about this is according to Dorian's grave stone in the Fade, his nightmare is "temptation." Yet we aren't told what he is so tempted by. Sex? He can have as much of that as he likes. He's not tempted by power, at least not that we've seen ... yet. And he scoffs at the traditional Tevinter obsessions with blood magic and past glory and blah blah blah. So what, exactly, is the temptation that scares him so much?

It feels like they are setting something up there, but I don't know what it would be.
 

 

I think by "temptation" they primarily meant the kind of temptation that is characteristic for Tevinters: the forbidden fruit. Which can be anything: abusing his power, knowledge, blood magic, demonic possession, etc. But it can mean anything that he would desire yet cannot readily have. Alexius, for example, was tempted by the possibility to save his son.

 

Also just because he scoffs at something doesnt mean he does not desire that thing deep inside. Maybe he fears admitting it to himself precisely because his greatest fear is falling for the Tevinters' mortal weakness.

[Gervaise]

Solas has admitted he is willing to sacrifice anyone to achieve his aims.   If there was something in Tevinter that he thought he needed to achieve this and he wasn't prepared to go there himself in case he was recognised and that alerted interested parties that something in Tevinter was important, then I am quite sure he would get one or more of his agents to do so.   It would be hard infiltrating as a Soporati or Laetans because they are actual citizens of the Imperium but as a liberati you would probably get away with it.   His followers are willing to do what is needed.  I think you underestimate just how determined he is to get his world back.

 

Why is Dorian's greatest fear temptation?   Fenris said (and I paraphrase): "I am sure there are good mages, even in the Imperium, but how many temptations do you have to give to a man before he succumbs?"  It has nothing whatsoever to do with sex.   That is not what defines Dorian.    He is the incorruptible one.   The one good mage who would never succumb to using blood magic or using others in a bad way to achieve his ends.    He was called "Dorian, the redeemer" in some of the advance publicity for DAI.   He wants to redeem his beloved country, he wants to save it from itself.   He wants to end corruption and see Tevinter on its way to a better future.   He said himself "To save my country, I would do anything".    He's already been willing to sacrifice his personal happiness (at least temporarily) for the sake of his cause.    What if the only way to save Tevinter was to cross the line?    What if it was going to fall to the Qun and the only way to stop it was to use a blood sacrifice?    This is what Dorian fears.    He never thought his father would do such a thing, however desperate.   He never thought Alexius would compromise his integrity to save Felix.   Dorian's greatest fear is temptation with good reason.    However, acknowledging the risk should help him overcome it.   Also, whether as friend or lover, he has given you the crystal so he can stay in contact.    His allies in Tevinter acknowledge that it seems to give him strength for the task at hand.   I like to think that if Dorian was ever wavering, he would turn to his friend/lover for the strength to resist and they would give it.  

[Gervaise]

With regard to Dorian's break up with Alexius, it is played down in the game, probably because Dorian doesn't want you to sympathise too much with how it was for him.   He does blame himself to some extent for what happened but the very fact he makes some crack about getting drunk as a result and seems to make light of that, shows that in fact the issues went much deeper.   He always seems to avoid dwelling on things that he finds painful by deflecting enquiry with humour.

 

If you go by the long time scale entry in WoT2 for Dorian it was 2 years between Felix first getting sick and Dorian storming out.   During that time he had been focussing entirely on helping  Alexius.   He had abandoned his studies, his social life, everything to be of service to him.   He had helped Alexius concoct a temporary cure that extended Felix's life to years longer than it should have been.   That was an immense achievement in itself and should have at least allowed Alexius some additional time with his son but that wasn't good enough, Alexius was fixated with getting his time magic to work, to return to the past just before the attack.    As Dorian says, even if they had the power to do it, he doubts the morality of it, seeing as it would rip apart the fabric of time.   So Alexius is compromising Dorian's integrity by insisting on pursuing what Dorian feels is a fruitless quest anyway   Naturally the strain would tell and finally he snapped.     Since the words "snap out of it" are used both in his letter to his father and his recounting the episode to the Inquisitor, they probably were the words he used.    They both then said things that they would come to regret, particularly Dorian.     Then he ran off back to the slums from which Alexius had rescued him and got drunk.      I think the location says it all.   He was back on the old guilt, punishment, self destruct cycle.    He actually managed to come to his senses on his own.   Went back to try and reconcile with Alexius but he and Felix had gone.    So he plunged back into his old lifestyle even more and then to compound matters, his father kidnaps him, imprisons him and plans to alter him with blood magic.   It is hardly surprising that he didn't really want to go into all the sordid details at that time, since he is still getting to know the Inquisitor, so he simply gives you the abridged version.

[Arlee]

 

 

Solas's big thing is freedom and free will. He became who he is by freeing slaves, even at the cost of turning on his own. He's not going to demand his people sell themselves into slavery, not even in service of building his network.

And I can't imagine the life of an elven Liberati is much safer then the life of a slave. In fact it might even be less safe, since no one has to worry that killing you will rob your master of a valuable resource. Think of the lot of free Blacks deep in the Antebellum South. They lived a rather precarious existence. Solas isn't going to demand that of his people, not with the end of the world imminent. I think it's more likely he'll try and go around Tevinter, if he can.

Although he'd probably love it if The Dread Wolf could somehow inspire a slave uprising in Tevinter. That would be his best-case scenario for disrupting a Tevinter-based Anti-Solas Task Force.

 

I agree it's unlikely for Solas to ask his followers to become slaves not only because of his views on it but also because any new slave wouldn't be as trusted as someone who has been there for years (though honestly if he found himself in the situation where he needed a follower to become a slave to get a thing done I think he would do it, he'd hate it but he'd still do it). What he would do (and if he doesn't I'd have wonder what sort of crack is BioWare smoking) is recruit elves who are already slaves to work for him. They would be able to get the most done from whithin.

[BloodKaiden]

Amatus. Dorian called my mage Inquisitor this before a kissing scene. Anyone know what this pet name means? Can't recall him saying it anywhere else in game although he does go into the Tevene language with words like Kaffas and Venhedis. Never heard Amatus.

[Gervaise]

It's actually taken from Latin.  There are various words that come from the stem of Amor = love, strong desire, or term of endearment.  Amator = lover, paramour.     I believe Amatus = One who is loved.  That's so far as the game is concerned.   In actual Latin is would seem to mean "Having been loved", which is a bit ambiguous because does that mean that you are no longer loved or simply that you've had sex?    

 

Interestingly enough, Altus is also Latin, the adjective for high, deep, noble or profound.   Pavo/Pavus has already been mentioned on this forum as meaning Peacock.

 

I actually had to learn Latin when I was at school.   I have this pocket dictionary that had gathered dust for years having never had a use for it since then and then suddenly, thanks to Dorian, I did.   Not all of Tevene is Latin.   I'm not sure of the origin for Kaffas for example but it's fun looking for the words that are.

 

Soporati comes from Sopor, soporis meaning sleep or apathy.   The Tevene refers to the sleep definition because the magical ability is thought to be dormant in the soporati but could awaken in a future generation.

 

Laetans comes from Laetor = rejoice and Laetus = glad, cheerful.  When a mage is born to a soporati family it is a time for rejoicing because everyone gets elevated with them.

 

Liberati means deliverance, freeing or acquittal, so makes sense to describe someone who has been freed from slavery

[Squinterific]

Amatus. Dorian called my mage Inquisitor this before a kissing scene. Anyone know what this pet name means? Can't recall him saying it anywhere else in game although he does go into the Tevene language with words like Kaffas and Venhedis. Never heard Amatus.

Like Gervaise says, it is a Latin word, I think the most proper interpretation would be as the masculine form of "loved one" or "beloved". Comes from the verb "amo", which means to love.  Remember the character Amata from Fallout 3? That's the feminine form.

 

Although Dorian seems to pronounce it differently throughout the game, the correct Latin pronunciation is actually with the stress on the second syllable - amAtus.

[nightscrawl]

We had a whole thing about the pronunciation a couple of thread pages ago XD. But yeah, that's kind of annoying. It seems like his kiss-on-demand version is the closest to the real thing.

[Gervaise]

I wasn't very good at Latin at school but I have to admit it is rather good that the oldest form of Tevene seems to be based on Latin because, if you know how to write it (and to some extent even if you don't) you could come up with letters written by Dorian to people he knows in Tevinter and possibly even conversations based off it.   Clearly the slang/swear words aren't based off Latin.     However, some other phrases have appeared.  I think what the writers have done is pretty much as I did, consult a Latin dictionary and then tweak things a little so no one can complain that it isn't accurate Latin.  The words and phrases are influenced by Latin rather than being accurate copies of it.

 

So "Vitae benefaria", which is what Calpernia wishes for the Inquisitor if they let her go peacefully, means "Have a good life", although only the "vitae" and the "bene" bit seems real Latin    Nevertheless I think it is a good alternative blessing to give on departure instead of "Maker watch over you", for people who don't believe in the Maker or for whom he isn't uppermost in their thoughts.   Which do you think Dorian would use?   He does believe in the Maker but it doesn't seem like something he would naturally say.   I think "Vitae benefaria", to a good friend would be more his style.   Or is it something you only use if you think you are not likely to run into them again?

 

"Festis bei umo canavarum" is translated in the Wiki as "You will be the death of me".   I seem to recall this is what Dorian says if the Inquisitor drinks from the Well when he goes to pick them up.   It's not Latin but then he does seem to be swearing at the time, so that is consistent with the idea that swear words do not come from the Latin but another language, or are simply made up.

[Sarah1281]

 I think by "temptation" they primarily meant the kind of temptation that is characteristic for Tevinters: the forbidden fruit. Which can be anything: abusing his power, knowledge, blood magic, demonic possession, etc. But it can mean anything that he would desire yet cannot readily have. Alexius, for example, was tempted by the possibility to save his son.

I definitely don't think it's primarily the sex but I think his youthful self-destructive behavior is a part of why he's so worried. He's already proven that he's prone to falling into temptation and turning to alcohol and brothels when things get hard. I don't know if he's worried about his drinking (I'm worried about his drinking) and I don't think he's worried that he'll go back to the brothels but he's already shown his susceptibility to temptation. And then two of the people he admired and respected the most turned to temptation when they were faced with difficult situations. Dorian probably doesn't worry that he'll face minor setbacks and immediately fall prey to temptation but Halward was dealing with Dorian's out of control behavior for years and the end of his line (maybe not of House Pavus entirely depending on how big the family is) and so he goes blood magic. Alexius was dealing with losing his son and so was willing to rip time apart to save him (how did he get disowned but not Erimond? Erimond did far worse and with less good reason. He says he's a lord...maybe it's a matter of him being an altus and not a magister?). What would Dorian do if he's faced with trying to save his entire country? Or trying to save those that he cares for?

 

In my game I spend the whole time insisting I'm not the Herald of Andraste and the most I'm willing to go is telling the people after Adamant that Andraste cares about everyone because while it may somewhat strengthen the Andraste speaks through the Inquisition narrative I can't seem to kill, it's not manipulating the people into going along with the Inquisition because of their faith. But then I get to Ruth and she's just so despairing and suicidal and she did a terrible thing but there's no reason to single her out of all the Wardens. It's to her credit she does take that responsibility and wishes to face justice and I feel it's falling into temptation that I inevitably end up forgiving her in Andraste's name, while hating it the entire time I'm doing it. The temptation to claim to speak for Andraste when everyone is practically begging you to. And sure it's for a good cause but isn't that always how it goes?

 

It's good he worries about temptation, that he watches himself. It makes him less likely to actually fall victim to it. 

 

With regard to Dorian's break up with Alexius, it is played down in the game, probably because Dorian doesn't want you to sympathise too much with how it was for him.   He does blame himself to some extent for what happened but the very fact he makes some crack about getting drunk as a result and seems to make light of that, shows that in fact the issues went much deeper.   He always seems to avoid dwelling on things that he finds painful by deflecting enquiry with humour.

The first time you ask about Felix he dismisses it as a lingering illness and Alexius is just overprotective because he's an only child. He may be very protective but he still took Felix south with the Venatori to Redcliffe. It's only when your approval reaches a certain level and you two are friendly he'll tell you about the Blight and how things ended with Alexius. He'll dismiss your apology about Felix with a "he was on borrowed time anyway" but readily admit he knows that that doesn't mean he can't mourn his loss. He'll dismiss the notion that he missed Alexius by saying he missed having a patron and he wasn't built to fit in in the Imperium but if you tell him he sounds like he felt guilty he'll get huffy but admit it. He's so open with so much, being a pariah and his long bouts of drinking, but there's so much more you really have to call him on before he'll admit it and he doesn't appreciate it usually. 

[DreamerM]

Stupid question:

What does "The Parvus Birthright" amulet look like? Do we know? Is there concept art of it anywhere?