889 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

Ok, just an observation.  Is the angst from Xil and Lob and others because ya'll had some head cannon idea that the Dalish were elves that standoffish but would have good relations with non Dalish?

 

It is a central theme to their entire design.  They don't associate with other cultures, they are isolationists.  They are defined by their very isolation.  They don't associate with other cultures. This doesn't make them evil or antagonist, just not friendly.

 

If you like the Dalish, I would think their desire to be apart from other cultures is their appeal. It is largely what makes them unique and even the appeal I have regarding playing a dalish is this characteristic.  If you take away the isolationist component to them, they are just tall dwarves with long ears.

[Xilizhra]

Ok, just an observation.  Is the angst from Xil and Lob and others because ya'll had some head cannon idea that the Dalish were elves that standoffish but would have good relations with non Dalish?

 

It is a central theme to their entire design.  They don't associate with other cultures, they are isolationists.  They are defined by their very isolation.  They don't associate with other cultures. This doesn't make them evil or antagonist, just not friendly.

 

If you like the Dalish, I would think their desire to be apart from other cultures is their appeal. It is largely what makes them unique and even the appeal I have regarding playing a dalish is this characteristic.  If you take away the isolationist component to them, they are just tall dwarves with long ears.

It's this particular antagonist portrayal and the way it's handled, which was not as simple neutrality and not wanting to get involved.

[themageguy]

It seems this particular clan is pretty aggressive.
If she were alive, I doubt Marethari would play a role in it, or even Lanaya from zathrians clan.

[wcholcombe]

It's this particular antagonist portrayal and the way it's handled, which was not as simple neutrality and not wanting to get involved.

? The dalish have never claimed to be neutral.  They have twice lost bloody wars with Shems that have more or less cost them everything they have.  I can easily see them having resentment against Shemlen.  These aren't middle earth or high fiction elves.  They are resentful to humans.  Xil, you want orlais to cease to exist, I would think you would be happy with them not raising a hand to help the empress.

[Hellion Rex]

go ahead and share.  That is the point of spoilers!

Spoiler

My book skipped to about page 339. It landed about smack dab in the middle of a fight involving Celene, Gaspard, Ser Michel, and Briala all fighting a Varterral together. Right before the preview cut off, Gaspard used the "e" word, so I think that this Varterral was actually guarding one of the mirrors.

[TK514]

The Dalish have been antagonistic since the very beginning. BioWare has been consistent in their portrayal. This is not some new bias against the Dalish, this is how the Dalish have been defined through our interactions with them. Are there historical exceptions? Sure, but that's just what they are, exceptions.

[Xilizhra]

? The dalish have never claimed to be neutral.  They have twice lost bloody wars with Shems that have more or less cost them everything they have.  I can easily see them having resentment against Shemlen.  These aren't middle earth or high fiction elves.  They are resentful to humans.  Xil, you want orlais to cease to exist, I would think you would be happy with them not raising a hand to help the empress.

The problem is them being portrayed as the antagonists more than anything.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish have been antagonistic since the very beginning. BioWare has been consistent in their portrayal. This is not some new bias against the Dalish, this is how the Dalish have been defined through our interactions with them. Are there historical exceptions? Sure, but that's just what they are, exceptions.

Untrue. The Dalish were just as much on our side as anyone else in Origins.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Spoiler

My book skipped to about page 339. It landed about smack dab in the middle of a fight involving Celene, Gaspard, Ser Michel, and Briala all fighting a Varterral together. Right before the preview cut off, Gaspard used the "e" word, so I think that this Varterral was actually guarding one of the mirrors.

Sounds epic. Might read now. Gotta love when something worse comes along and everyone has to work together.

Everyone except the dalish. XD

[Mistic]

Ok, just an observation.  Is the angst from Xil and Lob and others because ya'll had some head cannon idea that the Dalish were elves that standoffish but would have good relations with non Dalish?

 

It is a central theme to their entire design.  They don't associate with other cultures, they are isolationists.  They are defined by their very isolation.  They don't associate with other cultures. This doesn't make them evil or antagonist, just not friendly.

 

I agree. It seems that people associate being nice to being good, being a jerk to being a villain. Also, that people have to be either good or bad, nothing else. However, tropes such as "Good is not nice", "Affably evil" or "True neutral" show that's not the case even in fiction. Not to talk about real life, of course.

 

Even that clan was mostly afraid of Celene bringing a conflict they didn't want anything to do with to their camp. No wonder they were incredibly rude to her and thinking of solving things by disposing of her.

 

Spoiler

My book skipped to about page 339. It landed about smack dab in the middle of a fight involving Celene, Gaspard, Ser Michel, and Briala all fighting a Varterral together. Right before the preview cut off, Gaspard used the "e" word, so I think that this Varterral was actually guarding one of the mirrors.

 

I have to get that book.

[Mistic]

Untrue. The Dalish were just as much on our side as anyone else in Origins.

 

Then, if DA:O counts as an example, not an exception, it means the Dalish aren't "portrayed as the antagonists more than anything", doesn't it? I mean, I think the only Dalish I killed through the DA games were infected Tamlen and possessed Marethari (Zathrian relented in the end to end the curse if you defeat him), and I did it with honest roleplaying, not metagaming. Most of the Dalish we met are jerks, but not enemies.
 

[Xilizhra]

Then, if DA:O counts as an example, not an exception, it means the Dalish aren't "portrayed as the antagonists more than anything", doesn't it? I mean, I think the only Dalish I killed through the DA games were infected Tamlen and possessed Marethari (Zathrian relented in the end to end the curse if you defeat him), and I did it with honest roleplaying, not metagaming. Most of the Dalish we met are jerks, but not enemies.
 

I was referring to this book primarily, although DA2 didn't help.

[wcholcombe]

The problem is them being portrayed as the antagonists more than anything.

If you are referring to the book, again we don't know anything about all the circumstances involved. There is a lot of pages skipped and removed from the previews we saw.

 

Their portrayal in games, especially as a non Dalish in DAO has been very consistent with the lore.

 

There is a very real possibility that they started a war with orlais because missionaries wouldn't stop coming into the Dales, I said possibility not confirmed fact.  These aren't friendly people.

I associate the Dalish a great deal with the Sioux or the Apache of the American West.  They weren't overly warlike like the Comanche or the Crow, but if you backed them into a corner or didn't respect their wishes to be left alone, they were very good at war.

At the same time those tribes were capable of great kindness to individuals and it wasn't uncommon for them to take in anglo children and raise them as their own, but that didn't mean they were buddy buddy with every white settler who came into range of their camp.

[The Elder King]

Sounds epic. Might read now. Gotta love when something worse comes along and everyone has to work together.Everyone except the dalish. XD

Spoiler

Briala rapresents the dalish, since she joined them in their goal of finding the Eluvians

[wcholcombe]

Spoiler

Briala rapresents the dalish, since she joined them in their goal of finding the Eluvians

Spoiler

I really want to know how that went down. It makes no sense from her portrayal in the first 5 chapters

[Xilizhra]

If you are referring to the book, again we don't know anything about all the circumstances involved. There is a lot of pages skipped and removed from the previews we saw.

 

Their portrayal in games, especially as a non Dalish in DAO has been very consistent with the lore.

 

There is a very real possibility that they started a war with orlais because missionaries wouldn't stop coming into the Dales, I said possibility not confirmed fact.  These aren't friendly people.

I associate the Dalish a great deal with the Sioux or the Apache of the American West.  They weren't overly warlike like the Comanche or the Crow, but if you backed them into a corner or didn't respect their wishes to be left alone, they were very good at war.

At the same time those tribes were capable of great kindness to individuals and it wasn't uncommon for them to take in anglo children and raise them as their own, but that didn't mean they were buddy buddy with every white settler who came into range of their camp.

We shall see. What's more important is being able to side with them in-game.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Spoiler

I really want to know how that went down. It makes no sense from her portrayal in the first 5 chapters

Spoiler

They may have brain washed her using some sort of magic. We can't know until we have the book. Also I thought she joined the dalish at the end of the book, not before the end.

[wcholcombe]

We shall see. What's more important is being able to side with them in-game.

That is a concern. 

 

Spoiler

I am seriously concerned with the combination of DG's comments on eluvians and the direction that this Dalish Clan is going in that regard that the Dalish or at least this clan may very well be the source of the veil tears and the disaster that destroys a large contingent of Mage, Chantry, and Templar leadership.

 

If the Dalish are choosing to abandon their past so far and go in a more warlike aggressive direction, this would be a smart move, I just don't particularly want to see them go that direction.

[The Elder King]

Spoiler

They may have brain washed her using some sort of magic. We can't know until we have the book. Also I thought she joined the dalish at the end of the book, not before the end.

Spoiler

from what Lobsel said, I don't think she's braninwashed. And the book's summary implied that she might choose between Celene and her people already.

[Xilizhra]

That is a concern. 

 

Spoiler

I am seriously concerned with the combination of DG's comments on eluvians and the direction that this Dalish Clan is going in that regard that the Dalish or at least this clan may very well be the source of the veil tears and the disaster that destroys a large contingent of Mage, Chantry, and Templar leadership.

 

If the Dalish are choosing to abandon their past so far and go in a more warlike aggressive direction, this would be a smart move, I just don't particularly want to see them go that direction.

I'm more or less fine with it if I can follow.

[Potato Cat]

That is a concern. 
 

Spoiler

I am seriously concerned with the combination of DG's comments on eluvians and the direction that this Dalish Clan is going in that regard that the Dalish or at least this clan may very well be the source of the veil tears and the disaster that destroys a large contingent of Mage, Chantry, and Templar leadership.
 
If the Dalish are choosing to abandon their past so far and go in a more warlike aggressive direction, this would be a smart move, I just don't particularly want to see them go that direction.

That may well be the case actually. Good point. Especially considering they hinted at the mage Inquisitor's possible involvement, and so early on they knew they wanted a Dalish mage Inquisitor. Also a good way of bringing the elves more to the forefront of the world, considering the Mage/Templar conflict was always such a human thing to me.

[wcholcombe]

Spoiler

They may have brain washed her using some sort of magic. We can't know until we have the book. Also I thought she joined the dalish at the end of the book, not before the end.

unlikely but I suppose its possible. [spoilers] I just don't see that fitting with what we have seen.  I think it is more likely she either becomes fed up with the slow progress being made, which I don't understand considering how pro she is about it in the beginning, or she goes for the same trope that the mages go for in Asunder that they have to control their own fate and have what they want now which would be equally disappointing as it was then. [/spoilers]

[wcholcombe]

I'm more or less fine with it if I can follow.

but haven't you been arguing against them being the antagonists?  If that happens, they are going to be the antagonists in DAI, considering your job is to stop who is behind it and repair the veil tears.

[Xilizhra]

but haven't you been arguing against them being the antagonists?  If that happens, they are going to be the antagonists in DAI, considering your job is to stop who is behind it and repair the veil tears.

The point being that I'm fine with it if I can assist in their goal while limiting the demonic invasion.

[Mistic]

There is a very real possibility that they started a war with orlais because missionaries wouldn't stop coming into the Dales, I said possibility not confirmed fact.  These aren't friendly people.

I associate the Dalish a great deal with the Sioux or the Apache of the American West.  They weren't overly warlike like the Comanche or the Crow, but if you backed them into a corner or didn't respect their wishes to be left alone, they were very good at war.

At the same time those tribes were capable of great kindness to individuals and it wasn't uncommon for them to take in anglo children and raise them as their own, but that didn't mean they were buddy buddy with every white settler who came into range of their camp.

 

That makes a lot of sense. Explains both individual acts og generosity and kindness, as well as their general cold distrust of strangers.

 

That is a concern. 

 

Spoiler

I am seriously concerned with the combination of DG's comments on eluvians and the direction that this Dalish Clan is going in that regard that the Dalish or at least this clan may very well be the source of the veil tears and the disaster that destroys a large contingent of Mage, Chantry, and Templar leadership.

 

If the Dalish are choosing to abandon their past so far and go in a more warlike aggressive direction, this would be a smart move, I just don't particularly want to see them go that direction.

 

I don't think it will be that dramatic.

 

But I'm thinking about the supposed conference that was leaked in that survey, long ago. What if it wasn't a peace conference, but a conference to stop the Veil Tears? Many have assumed we'll see the Veil Tear crisis' beginning, but in DA:O the Blight had already started by the time Duncan recruited our Warden.

 

Spoiler

If the Dalish are really seeking the Eluvians, their invitation to a conference against Veil Tears makes a lot of sense now, since they would bring a powerful card to the table. Of course, then everything will go to hell and the Inquisitor will have to convince them to lend their help again. Probably with some extremist in the mix saying "No, we can do it alone! Screw you, shemlen!" and then unleasing hell after a failed experiment = quest to earn the Dalish respect