889 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

I would also like to point out that sister Petrine's views are also considered heretical by the Chantry as a whole because she actively discredits many of their artifacts and relics. Her view may be biased in favor of the Chantry, but she is an ardent seeker of the truth, and can be relied on to give accurate facts.

One thing I did find interesting is that the Chantry academy or whatever seeks to portray truth not just chantry truth.  Even have what the chantry considers a hertical piece of art in their main courtyard.

 

Who is associated in the book with said academy.  Brother Genitivi.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Petrine also believes in the importance of recognizing the truth of the contributions of Shartan.

[azarhal]

One thing I did find interesting is that the Chantry academy or whatever seeks to portray truth not just chantry truth.  Even have what the chantry considers a hertical piece of art in their main courtyard.

 

Who is associated in the book with said academy.  Brother Genitivi.

 

It's the University of Val-Royeaux, it's not associated with the Chantry and usually clash with it. It was created by Celene in her early reign if I remember correctly (trying to find where I read that, probably WoT which I do not have with me right now).

[dragonflight288]

Petrine also believes in the importance of recognizing the truth of the contributions of Shartan.

 

While those two sisters, the one who gets the chant wrong and the one who keeps correcting her, are both rather dismissive of elves and dwarves. One of them is simply more tactful than the other. 

 

I guess that just goes to show that Genitivi and Petrine are kind of a minority in the Chantry based on what we've seen and what they've said. 

[EmissaryofLies]

I think you mean 'Sister Petrine.' Brother Genetivi's probably the gold standard in the setting in minimizing bias, above all other challengers. Even the Dalish would rate a distant third. The Chantry-originated articles can have bias, but it's hardly mandated or forced across them all. Who is writing will determine what slant you get- Sister Petrine is just the common culturally accepted historical view.

 

Mind you, biased as her view is, there isn't much to say Sister Petrine is wrong with her use of facts: her perception of them, sure, but not the facts themselves. Certainly there's nothing to dispute the assertion that the integration of the elves across the nations of Thedas after the fall of the Dales was initiated by the Chantry, and that those that refused went on to be the Dalish.

 

It's simply the way that it's written. The language of that passage;by all appearances the Chantry is a delicate flower that the elves were trying to uproot and destroy.

 

I do not believe that she's right or wrong at this particular time, as to who was right or wrong in the conflict. Going to need more information and many more sources.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's simply the way that it's written. The language of that passage;by all appearances the Chantry is a delicate flower that the elves were trying to uproot and destroy.

 

I do not believe that she's right or wrong at this particular time, as to who was right or wrong in the conflict. Going to need more information and many more sources.

 

Indeed. Just assign blame where blame is due: to Sister Petrine and her own biases, rather than the institution she is a part of. Insinuating that the Chantry forces history to be recorded in only one way rather misses the complete lack of evidence of such a institution-dictated history, and ignores many counterveiling examples (such as, ironically, Sister Petrine).

 

People who can't distinguish the institution from the individual are the reason why, to hear some tell it, the Chantry is a soul-crushing heathen-burning Ministry of Truth that tolerates no dissent or challenge to its dogma. They take a lot of different people from a number of different contexts over a thousand years and turn it into one blended, consistent mush of incomprehension.

 

[wcholcombe]

It's the University of Val-Royeaux, it's not associated with the Chantry and usually clash with it. It was created by Celene in her early reign if I remember correctly (trying to find where I read that, probably WoT which I do not have with me right now).

Actually University of Orlais.  don't know when it was founded but yes, they concentrate on accurate history not Chantry propaganda, and again Brother Genitivi was associated with it.

[Mistic]

OK, spoilers incoming!

 

There's much left to be said, but the preview has very, very interesting bits.

 

Spoiler

Ok, it seems the news of the rebellion were greatly exaggerated... by Gaspard. Who else?

 

And there's this scene I want to read more about with Celene being held hostage by the Clan Virnehn of the Dalish, and trying to negotiate with them. But it doesn't seem to work well. Celene offers their Keeper and warleader (they're not the same, mind you) improved conditions for the City Elves, free emigration to the Dalish clans and honorary lordship over the Dales, trading partnership included. Look at that, I like that woman!

 

But the Dalish don't like that. The Keeper goes as far as saying that humans pollute them, that the City Elves are lost forever and that (I'm quoting here) "if you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alinage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to the Dales".

 

Then the Keeper goes on to mention the Way of the Three Trees as to decide what to do with the Empress. Nothing very pretty, though (you know what?, Vir Atish'an forever!, damn the Three Trees).

 

There's a mention about the elves seeking to unlock "ancient magical mirrors that allow the elves to travel undetected across all Orlais". It does ring a bell, doesn't it? And then something bad happens. The preview doesn't say what it was, but it seems magical and bad, very bad.

[Dean_the_Young]

While those two sisters, the one who gets the chant wrong and the one who keeps correcting her, are both rather dismissive of elves and dwarves. One of them is simply more tactful than the other. 

 

I guess that just goes to show that Genitivi and Petrine are kind of a minority in the Chantry based on what we've seen and what they've said. 

 

...well, if we use a statistically insignificant sampling to justify an unsupported conclusion, sure.

 

Not that I don't think most Humans dismiss them- that's just a poor justification argument. Personally, I'd put it down more to Dwarves being a pretty small minority of Thedas surface life (and thus marginal and unimportant), elves being also marginalized and fantasy racism at play, but most of all the fact that most of Thedas is poorly educated and wouldn't have much reason to focus on them in the first place.

 

I suspect in the actually educated sectors of of the Chantry which actively research and are involved with history, you'd find more understanding. Most other people? Not so much.

[Iron Fist]

Humans still control the infrastructure and governance of the area. Otherwise, there wouldn't be nomadic Dalish clans.

[wcholcombe]

Where did you read that? My preview stopped on like Chapter 5

[EmissaryofLies]

Indeed. Just assign blame where blame is due: to Sister Petrine and her own biases, rather than the institution she is a part of. Insinuating that the Chantry forces history to be recorded in only one way rather misses the complete lack of evidence of such a institution-dictated history, and ignores many counterveiling examples (such as, ironically, Sister Petrine).

 

People who can't distinguish the institution from the individual are the reason why, to hear some tell it, the Chantry is a soul-crushing heathen-burning Ministry of Truth that tolerates no dissent or challenge to its dogma. They take a lot of different people from a number of different contexts over a thousand years and turn it into one blended, consistent mush of incomprehension.

 

I do not trust their institution, don't trust their motives, and even as it stands now the pc has no reason to vehemently believe in this mysterious maker of which the Chantry even admits has turned his back on them, until conveniently they spread their potential lies across the four corners of the world.

 

Personally, I will likely always see them as the villain until they prove themselves otherwise, in regards to both the elves and the mages. And even then, there's no reason to trust them on good faith alone. They are expansionistic hypocrites who are nothing more than a watered down version of what they hate the most. They can take their different contexts and accounts and shove 'em right where their beliefs originate from.

 

The long and the short:  **** the Chantry.

[Dean_the_Young]

I appreciate you for validating my point.

[LobselVith8]

OK, spoilers incoming!

 

There's much left to be said, but the preview has very, very interesting bits.

 

Spoiler

Ok, it seems the news of the rebellion were greatly exaggerated... by Gaspard. Who else?

 

And there's this scene I want to read more about with Celene being held hostage by the Clan Virnehn of the Dalish, and trying to negotiate with them. But it doesn't seem to work well. Celene offers their Keeper and warleader (they're not the same, mind you) improved conditions for the City Elves, free emigration to the Dalish clans and honorary lordship over the Dales, trading partnership included. Look at that, I like that woman!

 

But the Dalish don't like that. The Keeper goes as far as saying that humans pollute them, that the City Elves are lost forever and that (I'm quoting here) "if you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alinage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to the Dales".

 

Then the Keeper goes on to mention the Way of the Three Trees as to decide what to do with the Empress. Nothing very pretty, though (you know what?, Vir Atish'an forever!, damn the Three Trees).

 

There's a mention about the elves seeking to unlock "ancient magical mirrors that allow the elves to travel undetected across all Orlais". It does ring a bell, doesn't it? And then something bad happens. The preview doesn't say what it was, but it seems magical and bad, very bad.

 

Spoiler

Damn. If only the clan followed The Way of Peace.

[wcholcombe]

OK, spoilers incoming!

 

There's much left to be said, but the preview has very, very interesting bits.

 

Spoiler

Ok, it seems the news of the rebellion were greatly exaggerated... by Gaspard. Who else?

 

And there's this scene I want to read more about with Celene being held hostage by the Clan Virnehn of the Dalish, and trying to negotiate with them. But it doesn't seem to work well. Celene offers their Keeper and warleader (they're not the same, mind you) improved conditions for the City Elves, free emigration to the Dalish clans and honorary lordship over the Dales, trading partnership included. Look at that, I like that woman!

 

But the Dalish don't like that. The Keeper goes as far as saying that humans pollute them, that the City Elves are lost forever and that (I'm quoting here) "if you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alinage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to the Dales".

 

Then the Keeper goes on to mention the Way of the Three Trees as to decide what to do with the Empress. Nothing very pretty, though (you know what?, Vir Atish'an forever!, damn the Three Trees).

 

There's a mention about the elves seeking to unlock "ancient magical mirrors that allow the elves to travel undetected across all Orlais". It does ring a bell, doesn't it? And then something bad happens. The preview doesn't say what it was, but it seems magical and bad, very bad.

Where did you read that? My preview stopped on like Chapter 5

[EmissaryofLies]

I appreciate you for validating my point.

 

So when they made the elves give up their gods and convert to the maker they were tolerating dissent and challenge to their Dogma.

 

Good to know.

[The Elder King]

OK, spoilers incoming!
 
There's much left to be said, but the preview has very, very interesting bits.
 

Spoiler

Ok, it seems the news of the rebellion were greatly exaggerated... by Gaspard. Who else?
 
And there's this scene I want to read more about with Celene being held hostage by the Clan Virnehn of the Dalish, and trying to negotiate with them. But it doesn't seem to work well. Celene offers their Keeper and warleader (they're not the same, mind you) improved conditions for the City Elves, free emigration to the Dalish clans and honorary lordship over the Dales, trading partnership included. Look at that, I like that woman!
 
But the Dalish don't like that. The Keeper goes as far as saying that humans pollute them, that the City Elves are lost forever and that (I'm quoting here) "if you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alinage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to the Dales".
 
Then the Keeper goes on to mention the Way of the Three Trees as to decide what to do with the Empress. Nothing very pretty, though (you know what?, Vir Atish'an forever!, damn the Three Trees).
 
There's a mention about the elves seeking to unlock "ancient magical mirrors that allow the elves to travel undetected across all Orlais". It does ring a bell, doesn't it? And then something bad happens. The preview doesn't say what it was, but it seems magical and bad, very bad.

Oh boy.

[Sir JK]

This thread began on an interesting note... then turned way more interesting... and then turned into a "I must get this book". I should stop reading all these spoilers though...

 

Spoiler

I did notice another interesting thing... in the University scene... Celene's bodyguard do claim that 20 years prior to the war between Orlais and the Dales... Orlais considered the elves to be allies still. There's an historical bias to mind for sure... but that is a very interesting notion. One we definantely had not seen before either.

[Mistic]

Where did you read that? My preview stopped on like Chapter 5

 

In the review I have right now it appears on pages 230-234. No idea about what chapter is, though, since there are many omitted pages.

 

Spoiler

Damn. If only the clan followed The Way of Peace.

 

Yes, I agree.

 

After reading this, I think we've been mistaken. My opinion now is that the Dalish role will not be about helping the elven rebellion or not, but about making them realize that they can't be blind to other people's problems, even if they're not "true" elves.
 

Not a rendition of the elven war for independence, but a chance to correct the mistakes from the past. Centuries ago, the Dales did nothing when Orlais was being attacked by the darkspawn. Now that the Veil Tears threaten to destroy the whole world, the Inquisitor may need to smack some sense on those pig-headed isolationists.

[LobselVith8]

After reading this, I think we've been mistaken. My opinion now is that the Dalish role will not be about helping the elven rebellion or not, but about making them realize that they can't be blind to other people's problems, even if they're not "true" elves.

 

Not a rendition of the elven war for independence, but a chance to correct the mistakes from the bast. Centuries ago, the Dales did nothing when Orlais was being attacked by the darkspawn. Now that the Veil Tears threaten to destroy the whole world, the Inquisitor may need to smack some sense on those pig-headed isolationists.

 

The Clans are different, though. They aren't the same. At the very old board, Gaider said:

 

The Dalish have the Gathering every 10 years, where all the clans are supposed to gather and the Keepers of each clan share their knowledge with each other. This is also where Dalish-wide issues are dealt with, and ideally the Gathering is supposed to keep the Dalish roughly in step with each other. In practice, though, you are correct. Each clan tends to go the way that its Keeper dictates. Some clans are very militant, almost xenophobic. Some are little more than bandits in whatever wilderness they've staked out (this is often the case in Tevinter, for instance). A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged.

 

 

Honestly, I hope all the Dalish in the novel aren't like the one that was recently mentioned. It would be very disappointing.

[wcholcombe]

In the review I have right now it appears on pages 230-234. No idea about what chapter is, though, since there are many omitted pages.

 

 

Yes, I agree.

 

After reading this, I think we've been mistaken. My opinion now is that the Dalish role will not be about helping the elven rebellion or not, but about making them realize that they can't be blind to other people's problems, even if they're not "true" elves.
 

Not a rendition of the elven war for independence, but a chance to correct the mistakes from the past. Centuries ago, the Dales did nothing when Orlais was being attacked by the darkspawn. Now that the Veil Tears threaten to destroy the whole world, the Inquisitor may need to smack some sense on those pig-headed isolationists.

got a link to said review?

[Master Warder Z_]

Honestly, I hope all the Dalish in the novel aren't like the one that was recently mentioned. It would be very disappointing.

 

Why you don't want them to be in antagonistic role?

 

It would be suitable if it were so though, a repeat of history so to speak.

[EmissaryofLies]

Here we go.

[Hellion Rex]

got a link to said review?

He means the "preview" not "review" on Amazon.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why you don't want them to be in antagonistic role?

 

It would be suitable if it were so though, a repeat of history so to speak.

Same reason you don't want all Templars set in an antagonistic role.