889 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

And yet, Lanaya and Merrill have no problem interacting with non-elves, despite the fact that they believe in their history, adhere to their culture, and have faith in the Creators. I also doubt a treaty would have been signed by the Dalish if they were that staunchly against interaction with humans.

Lob, just tell me do you disagree in anyway with what I have said regarding the dalish way of life and their culture?

 

Lanaya is friendly after you have proven yourself, but she isn't trusting of you at first. Lanaya was also not born Dalish. She was the child of city elves who were killed by the bandits Zatharian later killed when he found her and took her into the clan.

 

Merril is an enigma as a dalish.  She is definitely interested in old elven artifacts and knowledge of that I don't doubt. But she indicates no interest in trying to reacquire their lost immortality. I don't think she even mentions it at all in DA2 really. It certainly is not an important aspect of her life.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What's that old saying? A few bad apples spoil the bunch?

Regardless, I suppose there is some argument to be made there. So I guess, that makes the portrayl of jerks vs decent folks 2:1.

Not good odds in proving the jerks aren't the norm for the dalish.

[Master Warder Z_]

One of the other elves also tells him to stop being a jerk. In any case, he's on edge due to his wife dying by werewolf.

 

He then proceeds to recite the tale of the "Fall of the Dales"

 

A mildly suspect historically inaccurate excuse to just spew his venom once again ._.

 

Point being they aren't much an exception to the rule given they espouse the same anti human rhetoric as the other clan if given the chance.

[Xilizhra]

He then proceeds to recite the tale of the "Fall of the Dales"

 

A mildly suspect historically inaccurate excuse to just spew his venom once again ._.

 

Point being they aren't much an exception to the rule given they espouse the same anti human rhetoric as the other clan if given the chance.

So, still no different from the Chant of Light.

 

 

What's that old saying? A few bad apples spoil the bunch?

Regardless, I suppose there is some argument to be made there. So I guess, that makes the portrayl of jerks vs decent folks 2:1.

Not good odds in proving the jerks aren't the norm for the dalish.

Not even that. The Sabrae clan's jerkiness is highly inconsistent, being nonexistent in DAO while higher but still not universal in DA2, and a grand total of one Dalish has spoken for this third clan. Your ratio doesn't work.

[Master Warder Z_]

So, still no different from the Chant of Light..

 

The Chant of Light doesn't mention any Races other then the fact that the Maker Apparently made them all.

 

._.

 

It doesn't elevate one as immortals whom all possess magic.

 

Not really an accurate comparison.

[Xilizhra]

The Chant of Light doesn't mention any Races other then the fact that the Maker Apparently made them all.

 

._.

 

It doesn't elevate one as immortals whom all possess magic.

 

Not really an accurate comparison.

And the darkspawn, which it blames on mages (in interpretation, apparently mages as a whole and not just that cabal), in addition to justifying expansion and conquest of non-Andrastian societies.

[LobselVith8]

Lob, just tell me do you disagree in anyway with what I have said regarding the dalish way of life and their culture?

 

Lanaya is friendly after you have proven yourself, but she isn't trusting of you at first. Lanaya was also not born Dalish. She was the child of city elves who were killed by the bandits Zatharian later killed when he found her and took her into the clan.

 

Merril is an enigma as a dalish.  She is definitely interested in old elven artifacts and knowledge of that I don't doubt. But she indicates no interest in trying to reacquire their lost immortality. I don't think she even mentions it at all in DA2 really. It certainly is not an important aspect of her life.

 

I'm just saying that the Dalish are all different, and being 'isolationist' isn't a mandatory trait of the People. Their religion and cultural views don't make them all out to be the same towards outsiders, which is why point. I'm not saying some aren't like that, I'm simply addressing that all of them aren't like that. Even Gaider addressed that some Dalish interact with some humans, like the ones living outside the border of the kingdom of Rivain.

 

As for the examples, I disagree about the first. Lanaya is initially friendly and inquisitive, even towards a human Warden, despite what the human bandits did to her and her parents; she even apologies for the way some have treated you when you.

 

As for Merrill, she makes it clear she believes in the Creators, and in the stories of the Elvhen. She says her ancestors were once immortal, and that they all wielded magic. Despite that belief about the Arlathan elves, she doesn't have a problem interacting with humans.

[Lorien19]

As far best of dalish clans was one isolated and mistrustful with keeper who was obsessed with revenge and created curse... second clan was full of pr*** that just waited for excuse to attack your pc no matter his/her attitude and those were "good" clans damn i can't wait to see bad clan...

Exactly,it was the keeper who was obsessed with revenge,but it was the whole clan that paid the toll, Beside few bigots you'll find in Zathrians clan there were also some relatively friendly individuals.As for Marethari's clan,they  do not wait for an excuse to attack they have a serious reason,and even then you're given the opportunity to avoid conflict. Marethari herself trusts your pc with a priceless elven relic for safekeeping.Also we have Velanna's keeper who opposed her views about attacking the humans.

I believe that,with the Dalish just like in most cases,it's just a few bad apples spoiling the bunch,a few hostile individuals/clans destroying the reputation of the majority.They're definitely isolationist,but so are the dwarves and the qunari in their own way.After all positive examples are easier to forget than the negative ones.

Why people always tend to focus on their negative aspects is beyond me.It's not that the rest of the societies are perfect the dwarves look down on the castless and the surfacer's,the qunari despise every other society besides their own,as for humans there you'll find plenty of "Vaughans" abusing and tormenting the minorities.
But that's the point in my opinion, the writers created the DA universe in a manner that depicts the imperfections of every race,society and religion,and that's what makes the plot interesting.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So, still no different from the Chant of Light.
 
 
Not even that. The Sabrae clan's jerkiness is highly inconsistent, being nonexistent in DAO while higher but still not universal in DA2, and a grand total of one Dalish has spoken for this third clan. Your ratio doesn't work.

I've seen people use solely DA2 based evidence to back up their wilder claims before. Don't see how mine are any different.

[Master Warder Z_]

And the darkspawn, which it blames on mages (in interpretation, apparently mages as a whole and not just that cabal), in addition to justifying expansion and conquest of non-Andrastian societies.

 

So you're comparing a vague anti pagan sentiment expressed by the Chant is comparable to anti human rhetoric spouted by the Dalish?
 

I think i got the comparison correct.

 

Still nothing in there about being the only true facet of a race, nothing condemning another race for their own stupidity and nothing nothing at all about blaming that race again on a war they started.

 

._. The Chant isn't a Dalish Hate sermon, hate to disappoint.

[LobselVith8]

He then proceeds to recite the tale of the "Fall of the Dales"

 

A mildly suspect historically inaccurate excuse to just spew his venom once again ._.

 

Point being they aren't much an exception to the rule given they espouse the same anti human rhetoric as the other clan if given the chance.

 

It's Sarel providing the Dalish historical account of the fall of the Dales, one that's even expressed by the elven Warden, so I don't see the issue. Explaining why some of the Dalish would be abrasive or hostile towards outsiders goes a long way in addressing the schism between the two people. Sarel also is thankful when you've helped Elora with the Halla, and expresses his gratitude when you've resolved the curse.

 

The clan is willing to change their opinion when the protagonist shows that he's not like the outsiders they've had to be wary of all their lives.

[wcholcombe]

I'm just saying that the Dalish are all different, and being 'isolationist' isn't a mandatory trait of the People. Their religion and cultural views don't make them all out to be the same towards outsiders, which is why point. I'm not saying some aren't like that, I'm simply addressing that all of them aren't like that. Even Gaider addressed that some Dalish interact with some humans, like the ones living outside the border of the kingdom of Rivain.

 

As for the examples, I disagree about the first. Lanaya is initially friendly and inquisitive, even towards a human Warden, despite what the human bandits did to her and her parents; she even apologies for the way some have treated you when you.

 

As for Merrill, she makes it clear she believes in the Creators, and in the stories of the Elvhen. She says her ancestors were once immortal, and that they all wielded magic. Despite that belief about the Arlathan elves, she doesn't have a problem interacting with humans.

But Lob....

 

1. one of the tenants of being Dalish is reacquiring their immortality correct?

2. The Dalish believe they lost this due to interactions with humans causing a quickening correct?

3.  In order to regain their immortality they need to refrain from human contact correct?

 

Look, I don't think the dalish have been portrayed bad or even antagonistic.  I just don't see how as a culture they can believe and purse the above 3 tenants and in anyway maintain normal relations with non dalish.

 

Heck they are cooperative in their isolation, they leave the area when humans come too close. It isn't like they put down roots and kill every human that tries to get within a mile of them.  This a cultural belief, not an antagonistic practice.

[Xilizhra]

I've seen people use solely DA2 based evidence to back up their wilder claims before. Don't see how mine are any different.

I've never done so, using Asunder as additional evidence and pointing out horrible things that happened even in DAO.

 

 

So you're comparing a vague anti pagan sentiment expressed by the Chant is comparable to anti human rhetoric spouted by the Dalish?
 

I think i got the comparison correct.

 

Still nothing in there about being the only true facet of a race, nothing condemning another race for their own stupidity and nothing nothing at all about blaming that race again on a war they started.

 

._. The Chant isn't a Dalish Hate sermon, hate to disappoint.

Well, none of what you mentioned is in Dalish history either, so I suppose we part company here.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's Sarel providing the Dalish historical account of the fall of the Dales, one that's even expressed by the elven Warden, so I don't see the issue. Explaining why some of the Dalish would be abrasive or hostile towards outsiders goes a long way in addressing the schism between the two people. Sarel also is thankful when you've helped Elora with the Halla, and expresses his gratitude when you've resolved the curse.

 

The clan is willing to change their opinion when the protagonist shows that he's not like the outsiders they've had to be wary of all their lives.

 

The PC elven Warden was incorrect then.

 

And i am not saying it wasn't there for a reason, i am just arguing it comes intrinsically from a culture that thinks contact with Humanity stripped their own of immortality.

 

And i never said why weren't able to slightly change their tune, i just maintain that you cannot have benevolent coexistence with the folks you believe took away your never ending life when you apparently seek to get it back.

[wcholcombe]

The PC elven Warden was incorrect then.

 

And i am not saying it wasn't there for a reason, i am just arguing it comes intrinsically from a culture that thinks contact with Humanity stripped their own of immortality.

 

And i never said why weren't able to slightly change their tune, i just maintain that you cannot have benevolent coexistence with the folks you believe took away your never ending life when you apparently seek to get it back.

MWZ,

It isn't a matter of correct or incorrect, it is in game perspective. to those characters that is what happened.  It would be ridiculous for them to spout any other beliefs about the fall of the dales.

[LobselVith8]

But Lob....

 

1. one of the tenants of being Dalish is reacquiring their immortality correct?

2. The Dalish believe they lost this due to interactions with humans causing a quickening correct?

3.  In order to regain their immortality they need to refrain from human contact correct?

 

Look, I don't think the dalish have been portrayed bad or even antagonistic.  I just don't see how as a culture they can believe and purse the above 3 tenants and in anyway maintain normal relations with non dalish.

 

Heck they are cooperative in their isolation, they leave the area when humans come too close. It isn't like they put down roots and kill every human that tries to get within a mile of them.  This a cultural belief, not an antagonistic practice.

 

I think the Dales might have been focused on immortality, rather than the myriad of Dalish clans roaming Thedas. The faith in the Creators and their cultural views and traditions seem to be more important in the Dalish lifestyle than an attempt to regain immortality, which I think would have prevented any treat with the Wardens if it was of any paramount importance.

 

As for the Dalish leaving, it's because things are dangerous for them. As Gaider wrote at Dragon Central (in response to PsychoBlonde's comment about Sephardic Jews):

 

They were still living as part of the societies they migrated to, however. The Dalish do not. At best they'll camp too near some human settlement and eventually the local ruler will drive them out, or they will leave voluntarily before things get too tense, but for the most part the Dalish live entirely seperated from human society.

[Master Warder Z_]

MWZ,

It isn't a matter of correct or incorrect, it is in game perspective. to those characters that is what happened.  It would be ridiculous for them to spout any other beliefs about the fall of the dales.

 

Not in game incorrect of course, i am talking out of game context of the lore incorrect.

[LobselVith8]

Not in game incorrect of course, i am talking out of game context of the lore incorrect.

 

When you have any actual proof to indicate that this is the case, please let us know.

[Master Warder Z_]

When you have any actual proof to indicate that this is the case, please let us know.

 

Lob we aren't going there.

 

Accept what was in WOT or not.

 

But we aren't doing that dance anymore.

[wcholcombe]

I think the Dales might have been focused on immortality, rather than the myriad of Dalish clans roaming Thedas. The faith in the Creators and their cultural views and traditions seem to be more important in the Dalish lifestyle than an attempt to regain immortality, which I think would have prevented any treat with the Wardens if it was of any paramount importance.

 

As for the Dalish leaving, it's because things are dangerous for them. As Gaider wrote at Dragon Central (in response to PsychoBlonde's comment about Sephardic Jews):

I may be wrong but I believe regaining their immortality is one of the things they seek from conversations in DAO.

As for the dalish in llomeryn,

 

In the old BioWare forums, David Gaider stated that Dalish in Rivain have a semi-permanent settlement in the city of Llomerryn.^[13] However, a party banter during Act 2 in Dragon Age II between Isabela and Merrill reveals that the Dalish have not yet reached Llomerryn.

[LobselVith8]

Lob we aren't going there.

 

Accept what was in WOT or not.

 

But we aren't doing that dance anymore.

 

I've actually written down what was in WoT in my elven thread about the fall of the Dales. It read nothing of the kind.

 

So unless you can actually reference a specific passage or page that indicates otherwise, please stop acting as though your preferred side of the historical event is the correct one.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Exactly,it was the keeper who was obsessed with revenge,but it was the whole clan that paid the toll, Beside few bigots you'll find in Zathrians clan there were also some relatively friendly individuals.As for Marethari's clan,they  do not wait for an excuse to attack they have a serious reason,and even then you're given the opportunity to avoid conflict. Marethari herself trusts your pc with a priceless elven relic for safekeeping.Also we have Velanna's keeper who opposed her views about attacking the humans.

I believe that,with the Dalish just like in most cases,it's just a few bad apples spoiling the bunch,a few hostile individuals/clans destroying the reputation of the majority.They're definitely isolationist,but so are the dwarves and the qunari in their own way.After all positive examples are easier to forget than the negative ones.

Why people always tend to focus on their negative aspects is beyond me.It's not that the rest of the societies are perfect the dwarves look down on the castless and the surfacer's,the qunari despise every other society besides their own,as for humans there you'll find plenty of "Vaughans" abusing and tormenting the minorities.
But that's the point in my opinion, the writers created the DA universe in a manner that depicts the imperfections of every race,society and religion,and that's what makes the plot interesting.

 

 

When i agree on first clan i strongly disagree with second (perhaps first because clan was in dalish origins) clan was hostile toward humans and our pc despite that keeper tolerated hawke we have perhaps 2-3 peoples not counting merril that aren't hostile and racist toward us every other person in that clan is burning with hate toward humans and our protagonist and with every step they will let us know that we aren't welcome there.If there is lack of positive aspects or they are much smaller than negatice there is little wonder why peoples focus on negative aspect same with mages positive aspect of mages are almot non-existan and negative colosal.

 

I don't feel any sympathy to the jerks that would want burn me so simple i will pay them similiar so not very intresting plot i feel same as slaughtering random nameless minion during gameplay.

[wcholcombe]

You misspelled "Clan."

 

Unless you truly, seriously believe there are only 3-4 Dalish Clans in all of Thedas, the 2-3 we've seen so far are NOT a "numeral majority" in any sense of the word. Even if there were only 10 Dalish Clans in all of Thedas (which I seriously doubt), the 2-3 we've seen are not a numeral majority. You are using a numeral minority to judge the majority or entirety of a group, based on a sample that is too small to represent everyone.

 

It's a fallacy. Your logic is both prejudiced and fallacious.

 

 

And as long as Andrastian humans believe that Andrastianism is the One True Religion ("There is One Light, One Word, One God"), that anyone that doesn't believe in the Maker and The Chant of Light are evil heathens and savages, that the Maker left the world because of humanity's own sin in trespassing on His Golden City and betraying/killing His bride, and that the Maker will only return when the Chant of Light is "sung on all four corners of the earth," then there will never be true peaceful or civil interactions between them and the elves. If humans' good will toward others depends on others being Andrastians like them, then they will never truly tolerate or accept people trying to practice their own culture and religion. The elves have their own culture and religion that they want to practice without humans breathing down their necks, telling them they need to give up to be like them.

 

What? Not ALL humans are bigoted, intolerant, proselytizing fanatics that believe everyone has to follow the Chant to the letter like them? Not ALL humans spit hate at every Chasind, Dalish, or Orzammar dwarf they see because they don't follow the Chant of Light like them? Some or many Andrastian humans are just as friendly, engaging, and obliging toward non-Andrastians and non-humans even though the Andrastian religion's fundamental belief is "Human Andrastian > non-Andrastian"?

 

Then why on earth do humans' fundamentally "intolerant" culture ("You have to be like us OR make room when we force our way through because our Chant of Light being sung 'on all four corners of the earth' comes before your right to keep your own traditions and beliefs") not automatically make them all intolerant jerkasses, but the Dalish's basic belief that they want to be elven without constantly in the company of humans automatically makes them all intolerant jerkasses that deserve what they get?

I haven't seen the dalish as intolerant.  However, to your point, a tribal society-  as the dalish are- religion is much more paramount than in an urban society-much of the humans we have seen.  As such the belief about humans causing the quickening would be a bigger issue for a tribe that is trying recover their immortality.  If you want to completely change the cultural system of the Dalish fine. But wanting to be left alone doesn't make them intollerant.  It makes them isolationists, which frankly they have every right to be if they so wish.

[LobselVith8]

Is anyone familiar with the Dalish magic used in "The Masked Empire"?

 

Spoiler

I heard there was a varterral scene where Dalish magic was used, and I was looking for some insight into what kind of magic was utilized by the elves, since my preview didn't showcase this scene.