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The Dales are still majority elven


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#501
Lorien19

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When i agree on first clan i strongly disagree with second (perhaps first because clan was in dalish origins) clan was hostile toward humans and our pc despite that keeper tolerated hawke we have perhaps 2-3 peoples not counting merril that aren't hostile and racist toward us every other person in that clan is burning with hate toward humans and our protagonist and with every step they will let us know that we aren't welcome there.If there is lack of positive aspects or they are much smaller than negatice there is little wonder why peoples focus on negative aspect same with mages positive aspect of mages are almot non-existan and negative colosal.

 

I don't feel any sympathy to the jerks that would want burn me so simple i will pay them similiar so not very intresting plot i feel same as slaughtering random nameless minion during gameplay.

See,for a bunch of jerks you hate the whole group,yet I don't see you hating on the rest of the groups who also happen to have jerks in them...(Unless you do so, in other threads that concern them,then perhaps I would consider your opinion less biased.)
I'm not trying to be judgemental or aim it specifically towards you after all I have observed this sort of mentality in many people including myself sometimes, but this is the impression I get from the bolded part of your post.
After all the first impression one get's from their playthrough plays a big role,in forming an opinion about something...



#502
Reznore57

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#503
Master Warder Z_

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You misspelled "Clan."

 

Unless you truly, seriously believe there are only 3-4 Dalish Clans in all of Thedas, the 2-3 we've seen so far are NOT a "numeral majority" in any sense of the word. Even if there were only 10 Dalish Clans in all of Thedas (which I seriously doubt), the 2-3 we've seen are not a numeral majority. You are using a numeral minority to judge the majority or entirety of a group, based on a sample that is too small to represent everyone.

 

It's a fallacy. Your logic is both prejudiced and fallacious.

 

 

And as long as Andrastian humans believe that Andrastianism is the One True Religion ("There is One Light, One Word, One God"), that anyone that doesn't believe in the Maker and The Chant of Light are evil heathens and savages, that the Maker left the world because of humanity's own sin in trespassing on His Golden City and betraying/killing His bride, and that the Maker will only return when the Chant of Light is "sung on all four corners of the earth," then there will never be true peaceful or civil interactions between them and the elves. If humans' good will toward others depends on others being Andrastians like them, then they will never truly tolerate or accept people trying to practice their own culture and religion. The elves have their own culture and religion that they want to practice without humans breathing down their necks, telling them they need to give up to be like them.

 

What? Not ALL humans are bigoted, intolerant, proselytizing fanatics that believe everyone has to follow the Chant to the letter like them? Not ALL humans spit hate at every Chasind, Dalish, or Orzammar dwarf they see because they don't follow the Chant of Light like them? Some or many Andrastian humans are just as friendly, engaging, and obliging toward non-Andrastians and non-humans even though the Andrastian religion's fundamental belief is "Human Andrastian > non-Andrastian"?

 

Then why on earth do humans' fundamentally "intolerant" culture ("You have to be like us OR make room when we force our way through because our Chant of Light being sung 'on all four corners of the earth' comes before your right to keep your own traditions and beliefs") not automatically make them all intolerant jerkasses, but the Dalish's basic belief that they want to regain their culture, religion and possible immortality without constantly being in the company of humans (who history has shown will not respect their privacy, religion, or way of life) automatically makes them all intolerant jerkasses that deserve what they get?

 

Klan and Clan are both proper spellings of the word with the same meaning, it isn't a "misspelling" i could also call them wandering vagabonds if you like.

 

It is the numeric majority in what has been presented thus far, Your blatant misuse of my own words to belay that very notion doesn't make it so, its compounded evidence, not fallacy.

 

And in response to the Chantry teachings of Andraste being strictly human i'd point out that given Humanity is the majority species of Thedas that is merely the reflection of a wide spread faith being adopted by that majority, it also has within it Dwarves and Elves. And it being incomprehensible with foreign cultures i'd point out that it has trading relations with folks who venerate their own Ancestors, And it isn't invading Par Vollen to be rid of Oxmen who believe in no deity at all, little lone the Maker. You have varying contradictions of course but that's all faiths, all beliefs i don't deny that.

 

But i don't paint The Dalish belief beyond what it is, Isolationism done in the name of their culture, its just that simple, I don't label them war starting, blight ignoring murdering bigots do i? Well occasionally i do but that isn't the point. I also point out that according to them, Humanity is the cause for elves losing both culture and immortality, along supposedly with Magic which also faded from the "quickening" so how exactly does Peaceful Coexistance occur with that belief in circulation? You Dalish defending lot seem to overlook their culture it self prevents it as much as the "Chantry's intolerance of gods being put before the maker"

 

Also given the Dales invaded Orlais wouldn't it be the opposite what them deliberately biding their time and waiting through a blight before marching on them? Or was that somehow a "Orlaisian" Breach of "Privacy"? By not wanting to be invaded and striking back. Furthermore their culture is predispositioned and preconditioned to maintain this stance, even if it is proven wrong, They will maintain they were wronged, robbed and other victimizing nonsense just because that's how you sustain an isolationist culture, you make yourselves out to be the victim when you in most cases are responsible for your own suffering.

 

Ultimately it comes down to this, Bioware has portrayed them in this fashion for two games now, that is been the face we have been presented with and its a face that some such as myself have just come to accept, because their culture cannot give anything else. There are a few exceptions within individuals but those are exceptions and not norms, So ultimately you were right on one point.

 

They do deserve what they get.



#504
wcholcombe

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Is anyone familiar with the Dalish magic used in "The Masked Empire"?

 

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#505
Lorien19

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#506
LobselVith8

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I saw that, too, but I get the feeling it may be atypical.

 

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#507
Divine Justinia V

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I haven't read any of TME because I like to wait instead of torturing myself :P

 

but I really hope this is true?? I'd like to eventually see some redemption for the Dalish.


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#508
AresKeith

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So from what I gathered in this thread, the Dalish are messed up people?


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#509
wcholcombe

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So from what I gathered in this thread, the Dalish are messed up people?

Actually I don't think the dalish are messed up.

 

I think we all in our own individual head cannon of what they are, are pretty messed up.



#510
LobselVith8

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So from what I gathered in this thread, the Dalish are messed up people?

 

If by "the Dalish", you mean one single clan. I also think you can make the same condemnation about humanity if we're judging only a few characters and condemning their entire race as a response.



#511
TheKomandorShepard

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See,for a bunch of jerks you hate the whole group,yet I don't see you hating on the rest of the groups who also happen to have jerks in them...(Unless you do so, in other threads that concern them,then perhaps I would consider your opinion less biased.)
I'm not trying to be judgemental or aim it specifically towards you after all I have observed this sort of mentality in many people including myself sometimes, but this is the impression I get from the bolded part of your post.
After all the first impression one get's from their playthrough plays a big role,in forming an opinion about something...

 

Well depending what group do you mean if you talk about random templar being jerk toward random npc i don't care but if most templars will start insult me or have hostile attitude toward me it won't end nice for them same for any other group that will do the same.

 

As far i have low opinion about dales if that was best attitude dales have to offer or such attitude will be present to offten my opinion about them won't change as i won't hold my sword because 1 clan have 1 nice guy in it...  



#512
Master Warder Z_

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So from what I gathered in this thread, the Dalish are messed up people?

 

Pretty much.



#513
wcholcombe

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The wiki page indicates the clan we meet in DAO is one of the middle of the road Dalish clans in regards to dealing with humans.  Meaning there are nicer and there are more hostile.



#514
AresKeith

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If by "the Dalish", you mean one single clan. I also think you can make the same condemnation about humanity if we're judging only a few characters and condemning their entire race as a response.

 

I don't hate the Dalish, or any group in the game games for that matter 


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#515
Lorien19

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So from what I gathered in this thread, the Dalish are messed up people?

 

Well,I'd say that It is a group that includes some messed up individuals(like any other group :whistle: .)But I wouldn't characterize them messed up as a whole.



#516
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I haven't seen the dalish as intolerant.  However, to your point, a tribal society-  as the dalish are- religion is much more paramount than in an urban society-much of the humans we have seen.  As such the belief about humans causing the quickening would be a bigger issue for a tribe that is trying recover their immortality.  If you want to completely change the cultural system of the Dalish fine. But wanting to be left alone doesn't make them intollerant.  It makes them isolationists, which frankly they have every right to be if they so wish.

 

Huh, that was unexpected. To be honest, I agree. I don't see the Dalish as fundamentally intolerant either. Some individual Dalish? Sure. There are intolerant people no matter where you go. But fundamentally, as a race, culture, people? Not at all. I also think that if they want to be left alone, they have a right to be left alone.

 

I'm mostly trying to refute Master Warden Z, who seems to claim that the Dalish' supposedly fundamental cultural belief that elves used to be immortal, lost their immortality by being around humans, and want to gain it back by staying away from humans, automatically makes them all racial supremacists, intolerant isolationists, and unpleasant jerkasses.

 

"Isolationist = intolerant supremacist" fallacy aside, I'm trying to argue that by that same logic, all humans are intolerant proselytizers because their religion's fundamental belief is that their way is Right while everyone else is Wrong, anyone who doesn't believe what they believe is an evil heathen and filthy savage, and they have to convert everyone - or at least spread their religion everywhere - in the world to get their God to come back.

 

I'm arguing that not all Dalish 100% subscribe to everything about their culture any more than all Andrastians 100% subscribe to everything about their religion. Being Dalish does not automatically make one an over-zealous racial supremacist isolationist any more than simply being Andrastian (especially human) automatically makes one a zealous, intolerant, proselytizing religious fanatic.

 

EDIT: Also that they don't all deserve to be categorized as such just because some people within their culture exert those behaviors/beliefs.


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#517
Hanako Ikezawa

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I don't hate the Dalish, or any group in the game games for that matter 

Same. I don't like some things every group does, but I see their side on it and know not everyone in said group is like that. So I don't hate a faction due to its members. 


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#518
wcholcombe

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Huh, that was unexpected. To be honest, I agree. I don't see the Dalish as fundamentally intolerant either. Some individual Dalish? Sure. There are intolerant people no matter where you go. But fundamentally, as a race, culture, people? Not at all. I also think that if they want to be left alone, they have a right to be left alone.

 

I'm mostly trying to refute Master Warden Z, who seems to claim that the Dalish' supposedly fundamental cultural belief that elves used to be immortal, lost their immortality by being around humans, and want to gain it back by staying away from humans, automatically makes them all racial supremacists, intolerant isolationists, and unpleasant jerkasses.

 

"Isolationist = intolerant supremacist" fallacy aside, I'm trying to argue that by that same logic, all humans are intolerant proselytizers because their religion's fundamental belief is that their way is Right while everyone else is Wrong, anyone who doesn't believe what they believe is an evil heathen and filthy savage, and they have to convert everyone or at least spread their religion everywhere in the world to get their God to come back.

 

I'm arguing that not all Dalish 100% subscribe to everything about their culture any more than all Andrastians 100% subscribe to everything about their religion. Being Dalish does not automatically make one an over-zealous racial supremacist isolationist any more than simply being Andrastian (especially human) automatically makes one a zealous, intolerant, proselytizing religious fanatic.

Its the same point I have been arguing the whole time.  The dalish aren't supremecists or even antagonistic, much as the apache or the sioux they just want to be allowed to live their life away from humans, the apaches and sioux it was the white man or the spanish for the apaches as well, but I digress.  The intolerance comes from the fact that they don't want relationships with other races, so they are cold and unwelcoming, from the way their race is designed, it makes sense.


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#519
The Elder King

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I don't hate the Dalish, or any group in the game games for that matter 

  

Same. I don't like some things every group does, but I see their side on it and know not everyone in said group is like that. So I don't hate a faction due to its members.

Agreed with both.

#520
Master Warder Z_

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I don't hate the Dalish, or any group in the game games for that matter 

 

About my sentiments.

 

Its a lot of power to give to a bunch of pixels in a game.



#521
AresKeith

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Well,I'd say that It is a group that includes some messed up individuals(like any other group :whistle: .)But I wouldn't characterize them messed up as a whole.

 

Wasn't referring to all Dalish, just the ones in the book for

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#522
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I haven't seen the dalish as intolerant.  However, to your point, a tribal society-  as the dalish are- religion is much more paramount than in an urban society-much of the humans we have seen.  As such the belief about humans causing the quickening would be a bigger issue for a tribe that is trying recover their immortality.  If you want to completely change the cultural system of the Dalish fine. But wanting to be left alone doesn't make them intollerant.  It makes them isolationists, which frankly they have every right to be if they so wish.

 

Its the same point I have been arguing the whole time.  The dalish aren't supremecists or even antagonistic, much as the apache or the sioux they just want to be allowed to live their life away from humans, the apaches and sioux it was the white man or the spanish for the apaches as well, but I digress.  The intolerance comes from the fact that they don't want relationships with other races, so they are cold and unwelcoming, from the way their race is designed, it makes sense.

 

Er... now you've lost me. They're not intolerant, just isolationist. But their intollerance comes from their desired isolationism...?

 

Sorry, but that doesn't quite add up for me. Please explain? ^^;



#523
Lorien19

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Wasn't referring to all Dalish, just the ones in the book for

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Oh,Sorry I thought you meant them as a whole...But yeah as far as the particular clan is concerned I agree (for the majority at least.)



#524
Mistic

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I'm arguing that not all Dalish 100% subscribe to everything about their culture any more than all Andrastians 100% subscribe to everything about their religion. Being Dalish does not automatically make one an over-zealous racial supremacist isolationist any more than simply being Andrastian (especially human) automatically makes one a zealous, intolerant, proselytizing religious fanatic.

 

I agree. Not that it hasn't stopped extreme arguments about Elves, Mages, Templars, the Chantry, etc.

 

However, I think there's a knee-jerk reaction when we see something bad about the group we are more sympathetic to, and then we end up using the tu quoque fallacy. It's true that there are some nasty Dalish elves out there, and nothing guarantees that the nasty ones are not in the majority (there are enough hints they're not the only ones, but that's a different matter).

 

Its the same point I have been arguing the whole time.  The dalish aren't supremecists or even antagonistic, much as the apache or the sioux they just want to be allowed to live their life away from humans, the apaches and sioux it was the white man or the spanish for the apaches as well, but I digress.  The intolerance comes from the fact that they don't want relationships with other races, so they are cold and unwelcoming, from the way their race is designed, it makes sense.

 

It also makes them less palatable for modern sensibilities, so I'm not surprised that scene of the book is causing so much ruckus, from people seeing it as proof that the Dalish are a bunch of supremacist morons to people trying to deny it counts as a valid representation of the Dalish. It isn't any of them, but that won't stop the discussion, I'm afraid.

 

Still, Vir Atish'an forever in my Dalish Inquisitor playthrough.

 

By, the way,

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#525
Hellion Rex

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@Lobsel,

 

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