Er... now you've lost me. They're not intolerant, just isolationist. But their intollerance comes from their desired isolationism...?
Sorry, but that doesn't quite add up for me. Please explain? ^^;
The perception of them being intollerant. The best way to get people to leave you alone is to not make them feel welcome.
I'm not sure what's so shocking about the Dalish clan in the book which can lead to so many strong reactions. If it's because they don't care about humans killing each other or don't care about city elves submitting to their will, well, first it isn't surprising and I don't blame them, especially after all what humans did to them, and continue to do. ( regardless of who was right or not in the past ) Elves aren't better treated in human nations. In Kirkwall, an elven girl can be raped, and the justice couldn't give a damn. What about Vaughan lol ? And the chantry isn't intolerant ?
Given what we know about human nations, I am wondering why suddenly dalish seem to appear the worst people in the world when I am reading this thread. They are certainly not worse than orlesians who love to annoy other people, other nations. I'm really surprised by the reactions and yet I'm myself pro-human, whenever I roleplay a human protagonist.
What I would only despise with the dalish, it's seeing them doing nothing for their future. Human nations didn't become powerful because they complained, they begged. I'd rather see them being pro-active than doing nothing. This is only what could kill my love for them. I'm really interested by Briala now, who dared to choose the dalish over Celene, ( I hope so ) I'm really interested to know what the dalish want to do with the eluvians.
Can't wait for the book.
Guest_Faerunner_*
It is the numeric majority in what has been presented thus far, Your blatant misuse of my own words to belay that very notion doesn't make it so, its compounded evidence, not fallacy.
No, I know what you mean and I still say you're wrong.
The Dalish we have been shown so far have been on the less than the warm and welcoming side, it's true. However, devs, codexes, DA characters' testimonies, etc. have said that not all Dalish are like this. They've said that the Dalish are people with varying degrees of kindness, friendliness, and acceptance just like people of every other group. So the "numeral majority" we've been shown does not reflect the majority or entirety of Dalish as a people. If the devs said the Dalish we've seen represents how most or all Dalish are, you might have a point. Since they don't, it's not so. On a more literal sense, the 2-3 Dalish we've seen are not a "numeral majority" within the universe itself unless there really are only 3-4 clans in all of Thedas. (I seriously doubt this.)
Either way, the ones we've seen do not represent all Dalish. Not based on what the devs have said, and not likely based on how many there are within the fictional universe. So, categorizing all Dalish as X based on the small sample we've seen is biased and fallacious.
Again, if you're going to negatively categorize all Dalish as X (say, intolerant) because a few people in their culture act like that and/or one aspect of their culture promotes isolation, you'd better start negatively categorizing all humans, Andrastians, etc. (say, intolerant) because of the few nut balls in their ranks and/or the one aspect of their religion that promotes proselytizing.
Guest_Faerunner_*
The perception of them being intollerant. The best way to get people to leave you alone is to not make them feel welcome.
Oh, okay! Now I get it.
Thank you for clarifying! ^^
Check the Masked Empire thread in the scuttlebutt section. There's an extract with an event where there are Gaspard, Celene and a cHaracter from DAO.
Spoiler
I wonder how the drunk Alistair would feel about that since he goes back with Teagan
Check the Masked Empire thread in the scuttlebutt section. There's an extract with an event where there are Gaspard, Celene and a cHaracter from DAO.
Spoiler
Check the Masked Empire thread in the scuttlebutt section. There's an extract with an event where there are Gaspard, Celene and a cHaracter from DAO.
Spoiler
Nope, he is ok 
No, I know what you mean and I still say you're wrong.
The Dalish we have been shown so far have been on the less than the warm and welcoming side, it's true. However, devs, codexes, DA characters' testimonies, etc. have said that not all Dalish are like this. They've said that the Dalish are people with varying degrees of kindness, friendliness, and acceptance just like people of every other group. So the "numeral majority" we've been shown does not reflect the majority or entirety of Dalish as a people. If the devs said the Dalish we've seen represents how most or all Dalish are, you might have a point. Since they don't, it's not so. On a more literal sense, the 2-3 Dalish we've seen are not a "numeral majority" within the universe itself unless there really are only 3-4 clans in all of Thedas. (I seriously doubt this.)
Either way, the ones we've seen do not represent all Dalish. Not based on what the devs have said, and not likely based on how many there are within the fictional universe. So, categorizing all Dalish as X based on the small sample we've seen is biased and fallacious.
Again, if you're going to negatively categorize all Dalish as X (say, intolerant) because a few people in their culture act like that and/or one aspect of their culture promotes isolation, you'd better start negatively categorizing all humans, Andrastians, etc. (say, intolerant) because of the few nut balls in their ranks and/or the one aspect of their religion that promotes proselytizing.
I've found argument styling i think, Argue something is Logical fallacy or biased. Doesn't matter if it is or isn't it forces them to argue how their argument has merit, except in this case? I don't need to.
So basically ignore the laws of Numerical Evidence and point to the speculation "No all of them are like this"
It doesn't work that way, You cannot use what could be to negate WHAT IS. The Onus of providing proof of that claim rests upon you, Dev claims aside, There is nothing in the lore to suggest is overly common, There isn't anything there defending them from it other then headcanon and hurt feelings 
You have noted and cited cases indicating this, you have some comments that may or may not even be accurate anymore, upcoming events, notable personal from said faction stating things in agreement in belief.
And...You have nothing besides an argument stating we don't know, Which is ultimately the crux of my own argument is well, tis just well...I have a lot more in game, in lore and in universe evidence on my side then you have upon yours.
I'd argue that if you want to debate speculative matters, You should at first admit its blatant speculation, and not at first try to find fault with the structuring of an argument, its sort of a textbook debating tactic when you don't have much of a case.
Check the Masked Empire thread in the scuttlebutt section. There's an extract with an event where there are Gaspard, Celene and a cHaracter from DAO.
Spoiler
Really? I'l give the man the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to actually appear in game and present his argument before writing him off.
I've found argument styling i think, Argue something is Logical fallacy or biased. Doesn't matter if it is or isn't it forces them to argue how their argument has merit, except in this case? I don't need to.
So basically ignore the laws of Numerical Evidence and point to the speculation "No all of them are like this"
It doesn't work that way, You cannot use what could be to negate WHAT IS. The Onus of providing proof of that claim rests upon you, Dev claims aside, There is nothing in the lore to suggest is overly common, There isn't anything there defending them from it other then headcanon and hurt feelings
And...You have nothing besides an argument stating we don't know, Which is ultimately the crux of my own argument is well, tis just well...I have a lot more in game, in lore and in universe evidence on my side then you have upon yours.
I'd argue that if you want to debate speculative matters, You should at first admit its blatant speculation, and not at first try to find fault with the structuring of an argument, its sort of a textbook debating tactic when you don't have much of a case.
The devs claims override everything.
More to the point, name these intolerant elves. I remember two: the guard in the Dalish in DAII, and your buddy in the Dalish origin.
That's about it.
Really? I'l give the man the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to actually appear in game and present his argument before writing him off.
Spoilers for the near conclusion of "The Masked Empire":
Really? I'l give the man the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to actually appear in game and present his argument before writing him off.
Guest_Faerunner_*
The devs claims override everything.
More to the point, name these intolerant elves. I remember two: the guard in the Dalish in DAII, and your buddy in the Dalish origin.
That's about it.
Well-said. =)
Spoilers for the near conclusion of "The Masked Empire":
Spoiler
Spoilers for the near conclusion of "The Masked Empire":
Spoiler
Interesting. Gaspard is a man with a code, that's for sure. Still a warmonger, but it's so nice to have three dimensional antagonists in a story... Let's hope he doesn't end up drinking a bottle of red lyrium.
The devs claims override everything.
More to the point, name these intolerant elves. I remember two: the guard in the Dalish in DAII, and your buddy in the Dalish origin.
That's about it.
Dev claims can also be overridden, Taken out of context and retconned, they aren't consistent anymore so then any other source.
Do you want me to explain what drew me to the conclusion they can be considered Intolerant or just their names? Eitherway its mostly the same, general loathing and intolerance of humans. Illen, Can make several fairly racist remarks towards both Duncan and Hawke respectively, his Hatred is one that lasts! It carried over in two separate game, its impressive.
Do i really even need mention Hahren Paivel? His actually somewhat unique given he dislike non dalish elves and humans he is a user of the term "flat ears" Though there are a few more present examples of that belief set. You already mentioned Tamlen and...Fenarel i believe? I think that was the name for camp guard in DA 2.
Still there be more then those mentioned, although now that i am actually reaching back to recall all the insults, they seem to be restricted mostly to Zatharian, The Storyteller in DAO, The Dalish craftsmen Illen and a few others...So yeah there are a few out there who don't interact with the PC enough to gain my memory for being hostile, congratulations to them.
That's about it, It isn't as if this position doesn't defend it self practically, every other century the elves do something in DA to make them more bitter and resentful.
The devs claims override everything.
More to the point, name these intolerant elves. I remember two: the guard in the Dalish in DAII, and your buddy in the Dalish origin.
That's about it.
No, that is too easy. You can't say a dev comment in a forum overides all lore we have in the game and out of the game. Otherwise the lore has no value. A dev comment has weight and value, but you can't take it and run with it to the exclusion of all previously established lore and information.
Spoiler
Interesting. Gaspard is a man with a code, that's for sure. Still a warmonger, but it's so nice to have three dimensional antagonists in a story... Let's hope he doesn't end up drinking a bottle of red lyrium.
Spoiler
Interesting. Gaspard is a man with a code, that's for sure. Still a warmonger, but it's so nice to have three dimensional antagonists in a story... Let's hope he doesn't end up drinking a bottle of red lyrium.
Let's hope that's relegated to the Red Templars. I've had my fill of Red Lyrium Super Saiyans to last a lifetime.
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