889 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

@ wcholcombe

 

I couldn't have explained it better myself.

 

Anyway; My point is this, Minority or no those humans have likely been within the province for the majority of their lives, the Dales were taken as a province more then five centuries before DAI after all, Generation after generation have lived, worked and died there, Human and elf alike.

 

Its no less Human land then it is Elven by this point.

 

Ok, we don't know numbers. If it was a 60-40 percent split, then it would actually be as human as elven in practical terms, but if the disbalance is larger, then we'd have a problem. After all, one thing is the right to stay, and another thing is the right to rule. Wouldn't it be unfair if a small human minority decides the destinies of an elven majority? Especially if the elves are as badly treated as they are.

 

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Finally! My old account!

 

But quotes still aren't working...

 

Anyway at Mistcan

 

My point was that you would in effect be displacing a large group of Humans, vast or slim minority, You would be telling them that despite living on those lands for near six hundred years, tough go somewhere else. As I have  said many times before I have no issue with an Elven Kingdom, My point is this, I didn't like Israel being formed on land that wasn't legally granted, I didn't like how they basically absorbed the Palestinian state, and I see this as a parallel to that in Dragon age. Ultimately I view it like this, The Dales have been a part of Orlais longer then they were ever independent now, Historical presidence aside I'd say it would be wrong to force a mass migration merely because some Elves believe they used to be immortal and they lost it due to contact with Humanity.

 

So if the Dales were formed on the principle of warfare, of displacing the Human residents there? I wanted for what I would like for Israel to happen, It to either be peacefully disbanded and its rightful owners restored their stolen property or...it can be a parking lot.

 

And wcholcombe: I am indeed pro Humanity in dragon age, just as I am in Mass Effect, Baldurs Gate and etc, About the only franchise I think Human can go suck a rock for all I care? Killzone I identify more with the Helghast anyway.

 

But in all of these franchises there is one distinct principle that warrants my support for Humanity, they are the numerical majority, and generally the most powerful race, therefore the world generally needs them far more then any other race. Stability and all.

[Lulupab]

Finally! My old account!
 
But quotes still aren't working...
 
Anyway at Mistcan
 
My point was that you would in effect be displacing a large group of Humans, vast or slim minority, You would be telling them that despite living on those lands for near six hundred years, tough go somewhere else. As I have  said many times before I have no issue with an Elven Kingdom, My point is this, I didn't like Israel being formed on land that wasn't legally granted, I didn't like how they basically absorbed the Palestinian state, and I see this as a parallel to that in Dragon age. Ultimately I view it like this, The Dales have been a part of Orlais longer then they were ever independent now, Historical presidence aside I'd say it would be wrong to force a mass migration merely because some Elves believe they used to be immortal and they lost it due to contact with Humanity.
 
So if the Dales were formed on the principle of warfare, of displacing the Human residents there? I wanted for what I would like for Israel to happen, It to either be peacefully disbanded and its rightful owners restored their stolen property or...it can be a parking lot.
 
And wcholcombe: I am indeed pro Humanity in dragon age, just as I am in Mass Effect, Baldurs Gate and etc, About the only franchise I think Human can go suck a rock for all I care? Killzone I identify more with the Helghast anyway.
 
But in all of these franchises there is one distinct principle that warrants my support for Humanity, they are the numerical majority, and generally the most powerful race, therefore the world generally needs them far more then any other race. Stability and all.

 
Well "stability" doesn't always work. Alliance between races was better than stability of Prothean Empire.
 
The richest and most successful country who is not rich because of natural resources is Switzerland. They give voice to all people and equally, even the Romansh people who are around 20k in number have as big voice as German speakers who are more than 50% of people. By this example I'm showing numerical advantage is good but not always.
 
And a DA example: If you check how Grey wardens first came to be, The tevinter knowledge of blood and ancient elven knowledge of Arlathan was mandatory. Warriors from all over Thedas participated too however they just became grey wardens. Without the Elven and Tevinter knowledge whole Thedas would be blighted now.
 
Power and number is not everything and countless times unity has defeated them both, utterly.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why am I not surprised? ignore ninety percent of the post and focus on something you find offensive or whatever.

 

That seems like a fairly broad sweeping statement to cling to Lulu, Javik only gave the barest of hints of the Protheans and he was one himself, ultimately declaring one thing to be over another when we only have a handful of events known for an entire time period to me seems ever so slightly biased. Javik said for the most part the Organic races of the Empire existed in enforced Harmony with each other, the only time it was disrupted was when Self Aware machines began to harass the empire did it flounder, and even then it was winning the war until the arrival of the Reapers.

 

And the Gray Wardens also had a century to experiment with methods, if you think there is something unique or special about them Adjusting tactics to combat the longest blight thus far, I'd say you were grasping.

 

So you say to me; An Alliance is better then uniform direction and vision? I disagree, History has proven the worth of unity and uniformity, Empires, Monarchies and Nations have achieved far more working in concert then they ever would separate, division, individuality, and self interest are the enemies of purpose. And Purpose can only exist under stable, singular leadership, the same is true for most things.

 

What worth does a life possess if not used for the betterment of all?

[Lulupab]

Why am I not surprised? ignore ninety percent of the post and focus on something you find offensive or whatever.

 

That seems like a fairly broad sweeping statement to cling to Lulu, Javik only gave the barest of hints of the Protheans and he was one himself, ultimately declaring one thing to be over another when we only have a handful of events known for an entire time period to me seems ever so slightly biased. Javik said for the most part the Organic races of the Empire existed in enforced Harmony with each other, the only time it was disrupted was when Self Aware machines began to harass the empire did it flounder, and even then it was winning the war until the arrival of the Reapers.

 

And the Gray Wardens also had a century to experiment with methods, if you think there is something unique or special about them Adjusting tactics to combat the longest blight thus far, I'd say you were grasping.

 

So you say to me; An Alliance is better then uniform direction and vision? I disagree, History has proven the worth of unity and uniformity, Empires, Monarchies and Nations have achieved far more working in concert then they ever would separate, division, individuality, and self interest are the enemies of purpose. And Purpose can only exist under stable, singular leadership, the same is true for most things.

 

What worth does a life possess if not used for the betterment of all?

 

Your last line is contradiction to rest of your post. At best its for betterment of majority or the strong, not all. Almost all countries who during old times refused to become united inside their country rather than being an empire forcing everyone under their banner are no longer with us. Of course since all intelligent beings on earth are human the closest comparison is nations. That said nations working together has been much more productive that one of them dominating rest of them. 

[Master Warder Z_]

How so? The State ensures survival, means of existence, It allows people to live in non anarchic society for the most part, it allows stability and insures the majority are protected and looked after, there are hiccups both in Thedas and in reality, but the point remains. What use is a singular person's life when they aren't contributing to the continuation and evolution of a society?

 

Oh on the other point of the post.

 

There are still empires that exist today, their borders have merely shifted, there are Nations, Groups and even individuals that control entire spectrums of life within the world.

 

Instead of bearing sigils and swords however, they rule through writ and coin, economics are the new territory of empirical dictation, not land.

 

But they possess no unity, its merely self interest guiding them, they don't seek stability but profit and there in lies the issue, but anyway we are drifting into reality based politics here.

[Lulupab]

How so? The State ensures survival, means of existence, It allows people to live in non anarchic society for the most part, it allows stability and insures the majority are protected and looked after, there are hiccups both in Thedas and in reality, but the point remains. What use is a singular person's life when they aren't contributing to the continuation and evolution of a society?

 

Oh on the other point of the post.

 

There are still empires that exist today, their borders have merely shifted, there are Nations, Groups and even individuals that control entire spectrums of life within the world.

 

Instead of bearing sigils and swords however, they rule through writ and coin, economics are the new territory of empirical dictation, not land.

 

But they possess no unity, its merely self interest guiding them, they don't seek stability but profit and there in lies the issue, but anyway we are drifting into reality based politics here.

 

Yet we see none of those countries on list of successful ones such as Scandinavian countries. I said the unity works better and it does. I did not claim empires cannot exist. The fact that many of them gone extinct speaks volumes.

 

And about the grey wardens which I forgot to mention in my previous post. The knowledge of Magisters and ancient elves invented how to become a grey warden. I was not talking about skills of grey wardens but mastering the taint. It was simply not possible without those knowledge. You can't just drink dark spawn blood and become a grey warden. Its a ritual made from mixing two of the most ancient cultures and knowledge source of Thedas. Its was not power or number, it was unity and knowledge.

[Senya]

Not sure if I agree with Z, but, if I recall correctly, Avernus stated that it took many, many experiments with the Joinining with countless people dying over the course of the First Blight before arriving at the Joining we known now. I don't think he mentioned the elves at all. The first wardens were mostly Tevinters, though, but any elven knowledge they may have had was stolen through conquest.

[Master Warder Z_]

Empires and their works may crumble but the belief of unification being the key to successful governance endures, Flags replace flags but that ideology, the mindset persists, you can speak of history to me all you wish but my point is this. When you have the means to ensure control and stability, you act upon them, you emplace the structuring for a stable and secured society, And the Nation and its people benefit, you speak for the common people who kill each other in civil wars and try to replace the tin pot dictator they just ousted, that isn't stability nor proper society.

 

And I said before, and I will say it now once more that the Wardens were formed a century before the Blight ended, They had time to amass lore and allies, The notion that is intrinsically better then uniform rule however isn't the case considering the Imperium for all its faults survived the Blight, the first one and those that followed because it could unite in such a way.

 

And the fact there hasn't been a single world governance in all of Mankind's history doesn't dissuade the notion that can work, it merely means it hasn't occurred yet.

[Lulupab]

"Warden legends sing of their leader Carinus, and the sacrifice the founders made as they tried to save the world while their families perished. It is thought that Nakiri of The Donarks was the one who first suggested imbibing the blood of the darkspawn, as his people were known to consume the blood of their enemies to absorb their power. Tevinter mages in the group added to this knowledge, and it is said that elven slaves also contributed ancient knowledge from Arlathan. This was in return for being treated as equals in the order and with the intention that, after the Blight was ended, they would concentrate on freeing the elves. The Joining symbolically cut their ties to all worldly concerns, in order to dedicate themselves to fighting the darkspawn. They called themselves the Grey Wardens, and would accept anyone, no matter their race or background, without distinction if only deemed suitable to join the order" Tabletop RPG

 

Elves indeed contributed.

[esper]

Every majority is composed of different minorities and every country is composed of individuals.

 

The only instances where you can get away with suppressing either as a country for eternity is when you are 100% sure that they cannot rise against you. Which is not the case of Thedas (or real life for that matter). Being a majority does not make one morally right or the most stable for that matter.

 

Of course the biggest problem with the elves is that the dales and the city elves are not the same people. Unlike with mages I am off two minds as what is the rihgt here. Orlais can't and shouldn't just take a peace of land and declare it 'New Dales' if there are people who live there and if there are not people who lives there is it likely going to be uninhabital land. I am more for letting the dales conqour their own land and then letting them hold onto it.

 

Yes, there will be bloodshed, but blood is the only langue Thedas speak yet.

[Master Warder Z_]

Every majority is composed of different minorities and every country is composed of individuals.

 

The only instances where you can get away with suppressing either as a country for eternity is when you are 100% sure that they cannot rise against you. Which is not the case of Thedas (or real life for that matter). Being a majority does not make one morally right or the most stable for that matter..

 

The description of Minorities and Majortiies doesn't quite apply in the same fashion as it would in our own reality, nor did it overly in our own Feudalistic Period, Yes you have divisions and minorities within the Majority either from Caste, Religion or what have you but ultimately Dragon Age Humanity has a uniformation tool that our reality sadly lacks.

 

The Chantry, Andrastian teachings are the unificitation tool of Humanity of Dragon Age, its the majority belief system for the continent, it also has within it wide spread approval through out Thedas, The point being here, Uniformity isn't a scoffable notion when you possess the tools to gather the people beneath a singular banner.

 

And Stability and morality both are subjective, depends upon the context in which you use to use them.

[Senya]

"Warden legends sing of their leader Carinus, and the sacrifice the founders made as they tried to save the world while their families perished. It is thought that Nakiri of The Donarks was the one who first suggested imbibing the blood of the darkspawn, as his people were known to consume the blood of their enemies to absorb their power. Tevinter mages in the group added to this knowledge, and it is said that elven slaves also contributed ancient knowledge from Arlathan. This was in return for being treated as equals in the order and with the intention that, after the Blight was ended, they would concentrate on freeing the elves. The Joining symbolically cut their ties to all worldly concerns, in order to dedicate themselves to fighting the darkspawn. They called themselves the Grey Wardens, and would accept anyone, no matter their race or background, without distinction if only deemed suitable to join the order" Tabletop RPG

 

Elves indeed contributed.

I find it a little hard to believe they'd have substantial magical knowledge after centuries of enslavement. (They barely remember their gods' names). Though, I can see them contributing a tidbit of knowledge. A small saying or belief like Nakiri.

 

Nonetheless, it did take a century to complete the Joining. The biggest contributing factors would be trial and error as well as luck.

 

But, on topic, I think that if there is going to be a new elven nation, it will only form through diplomacy between the affected parties. If the humans are just kicked out of the Dales, there will be trouble down the road.

[LobselVith8]

I find it a little hard to believe they'd have substantial magical knowledge after centuries of enslavement. (They barely remember their gods' names). Though, I can see them contributing a tidbit of knowledge. A small saying or belief like Nakiri.

 

It's not impossible for slaves to pass down knowledge, unbeknownst to their slave masters, since that's happened enough in real life; the Dalish certainly have a plethora of knowledge about the Creators, despite the enslavement of their ancestors by the Imperium. It seems that the Joining was possible through a combination of different people pooling their knowledge together - elven and human alike.

 

But, on topic, I think that if there is going to be a new elven nation, it will only form through diplomacy between the affected parties. If the humans are just kicked out of the Dales, there will be trouble down the road.

 

There's always going to be an issue when a race of people who most humans see as less than people are no longer relegated to positions of servitude. Hopefully, a storyline about an elven homeland will focus on the viewpoints of the Elvhen.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hopefully, a storyline about an elven homeland will focus on the viewpoints of the Elvhen.

 

I don't think that would come to pass personally, there are other racial options avalaible after all, if the perspective is unqiuely alien to the PC then there is no motivation to invest in said scenario, There is mutual gain and then there is fanservice.

[dragonflight288]

It's not impossible for slaves to pass down knowledge, unbeknownst to their slave masters, since that's happened enough in real life; the Dalish certainly have a plethora of knowledge about the Creators, despite the enslavement of their ancestors by the Imperium. It seems that the Joining was possible through a combination of different people pooling their knowledge together - elven and human alike.

 

 

 

Don't forget the dwarves. They don't have magic, but enchanting was first practiced by the dwarves, so you won't find anyone better at manipulating or utilizing lyrium than them, and since the joining requires lyrium, it probably also included dwarven knowledge of lyrium. 

[wcholcombe]

I don't think that would come to pass personally, there are other racial options avalaible after all, if the perspective is unqiuely alien to the PC then there is no motivation to invest in said scenario, There is mutual gain and then there is fanservice.

 

Nah, it wouldn't be that hard.  It would obviously be more developed if you are dalish, but even if you are human, dwarf, or kossith this is still doable similar to how they handle cultural aspects in DAO.

 

Now, again I don't know that we will be involved enough with the elves or orlesians or mages or templars for it to really matter, but if we are, it makes sense if you decide to support the elves to get an elvish perspective.  Just as if you decided to help say the Chevaliers crush the dalish, you could expect to get a very pro orlais anti dalish perspective.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nah, it wouldn't be that hard.  It would obviously be more developed if you are dalish, but even if you are human, dwarf, or kossith this is still doable similar to how they handle cultural aspects in DAO.

 

Now, again I don't know that we will be involved enough with the elves or orlesians or mages or templars for it to really matter, but if we are, it makes sense if you decide to support the elves to get an elvish perspective.  Just as if you decided to help say the Chevaliers crush the dalish, you could expect to get a very pro orlais anti dalish perspective.

 

I meant for immersion purposes you realize?

 

You can Roleplay and Headcannon whatever reasoning you wish, i wasn't debating that, i was just debating the alliance mechanic that would allow random Orlaisian Inquistor to tolerate and and in turn be tolerated by an overly hostile anti human faction, Factor if you so desire if we are dealing with the Dalish Clan in ME, if not i could see some leeway of tolerence offered, but ultimately?

 

It seems like a Racial Mechanic more so then a gameplay one, then again who knows if we can even impact this, note i am not advocating say: Humans not being able to align with the elves or anything so base, but i am arguing for there to be some presidence or event to PROMPT it, you understand.

[wcholcombe]

I meant for immersion purposes you realize?

 

You can Roleplay and Headcannon whatever reasoning you wish, i wasn't debating that, i was just debating the alliance mechanic that would allow random Orlaisian Inquistor to tolerate and and in turn be tolerated by an overly hostile anti human faction, Factor if you so desire if we are dealing with the Dalish Clan in ME, if not i could see some leeway of tolerence offered, but ultimately?

 

It seems like a Racial Mechanic more so then a gameplay one, then again who knows if we can even impact this, note i am not advocating say: Humans not being able to align with the elves or anything so base, but i am arguing for there to be some presidence or event to PROMPT it, you understand.

I got your point.  But the developers have already stated that your race will make a difference in your world interactions. As such I would expect it to be difficult for an orlesian to cooperate with the dalish, but Lob I am pretty sure from previous statements was meaning that a dalish inquisitor would see the dalish perspective, which would make sense as they kind of already did that in DAO.

[Mistic]

My point was that you would in effect be displacing a large group of Humans, vast or slim minority, You would be telling them that despite living on those lands for near six hundred years, tough go somewhere else. As I have  said many times before I have no issue with an Elven Kingdom, My point is this, I didn't like Israel being formed on land that wasn't legally granted, I didn't like how they basically absorbed the Palestinian state, and I see this as a parallel to that in Dragon age. Ultimately I view it like this, The Dales have been a part of Orlais longer then they were ever independent now, Historical presidence aside I'd say it would be wrong to force a mass migration merely because some Elves believe they used to be immortal and they lost it due to contact with Humanity.

 

I agree, in principle. But Thedas is not a nice place. And that's the problem: I don't think an independent Dales will kick out the humans because of some Dalish legend about being immortal in the past. After all, I'm of the opinion that such a country would be Andrastian because most of the elves are.

 

No, they will kick out the humans because for all these centuries, those human neigbours that are as part of the Dales as they are abused their station, treated the elves like crap, exploited them and purged them if they rebelled. That doesn't create any goodwill between the races.

 

"You reap what you sow". It's no different of those that say that the original Dales got what they deserved for not helping Orlais during the Blight and causing trouble to the point the holy war started.

 

[wcholcombe]

I agree, in principle. But Thedas is not a nice place. And that's the problem: I don't think an independent Dales will kick out the humans because of some Dalish legend about being immortal in the past. After all, I'm of the opinion that such a country would be Andrastian because most of the elves are.

 

No, they will kick out the humans because for all these centuries, those human neigbours that are as part of the Dales as they are abused their station, treated the elves like crap, exploited them and purged them if they rebelled. That doesn't create any goodwill between the races.

 

"You reap what you sow". It's no different of those that say that the original Dales got what they deserved for not helping Orlais during the Blight and causing trouble to the point the holy war started.

Lol, you think an Elven Nation would have city elves and Dalish living together.............man I wish I knew the emoticon for a laughing face.

 

Not saying anything against the dalish, but those are two very distinctly different cultures now.  City elves are as compatible with the dalish as a new yorker would be if they were dropped into the middle of an apache camp in the 19th century.

 

Are there some who become dalish?  Sure.  But there is no way you could make a working unified government that combines the dalish and the city elves.

 

the city elves aren't going to care about the keeper supposedly being royalty and may very well hate them for using magic.  Just some observations.  My apologies in advance if you were meaning an independent CE state.

 

 

The independent Elven state will happen 1 of 2 ways. For some reason it becomes beneficial to Orlais to establish it or an extremely bloody costly war.  The idea of Israel won't happen in Thedas.....well it could, but the only force in a position to make it happen would be the Chantry and they aren't quite in a position to do that currently.

[esper]

The description of Minorities and Majortiies doesn't quite apply in the same fashion as it would in our own reality, nor did it overly in our own Feudalistic Period, Yes you have divisions and minorities within the Majority either from Caste, Religion or what have you but ultimately Dragon Age Humanity has a uniformation tool that our reality sadly lacks.

 

The Chantry, Andrastian teachings are the unificitation tool of Humanity of Dragon Age, its the majority belief system for the continent, it also has within it wide spread approval through out Thedas, The point being here, Uniformity isn't a scoffable notion when you possess the tools to gather the people beneath a singular banner.

 

And Stability and morality both are subjective, depends upon the context in which you use to use them.

 

The majority was not in power in our feuderal period and the system set up there did end in violence, in many different ways.

 

 

The andrastian teaching is not a unification tool. It is a major source of conflict as different understandings of it has led to Exalted Marches, the templar/seeker desserting, the mages rebelling and some people hunting the dales for this reason alone. Not to mention that there is a risk that Justina is in direct conflict with the offical chantry stance on their teaching (if she lean towards Leliana's view). No matter her inclination she has already split the chantry as a good portion of the templars and mages walked out. The chantry in da:I is not the same chantry as in da2 and da:o as they lost a vital part of their army.

 

Uniformity is a scoffable notion, because it is unachievable and in in trying to achieve to a too high degree, you risk sparking wars, civil wars and other things like that. The best we can hope for is some form of 'agree to disagree' compromise and Thedas is a looong way from achieving that.

[Mistic]

the city elves aren't going to care about the keeper supposedly being royalty and may very well hate them for using magic.  Just some observations.  My apologies in advance if you were meaning an independent CE state.

 

Well, yeah, I was talking about an independent CE state That's why I told Master Warder Z that the "immortality" thing wouldn't be the reason the humans would be kicked out from the Dales if independence happened, but all the history of abuses from the human overlords to their elven subjects. So, yes, City Elves.

 

The idea that Dalish elves and City elves will reach a miraculous understanding and live together in harmony, with the Dalish probably leading their brethren to pagan enlightment is naive at best. Not completely impossible, since stranger things have happened in real life (not to say in fictionland), but yes, very far-fetched.

[wcholcombe]

Well, yeah, I was talking about an independent CE state That's why I told Master Warder Z that the "immortality" thing wouldn't be the reason the humans would be kicked out from the Dales if independence happened, but all the history of abuses from the human overlords to their elven subjects. So, yes, City Elves.

 

The idea that Dalish elves and City elves will reach a miraculous understanding and live together in harmony, with the Dalish probably leading their brethren to pagan enlightment is naive at best. Not completely impossible, since stranger things have happened in real life (not to say in fictionland), but yes, very far-fetched.

Yeah sorry, it occurred to me when I was writting that that you might be meaning only a CE state, but by that point I was rolling.

[Lulupab]

Well, yeah, I was talking about an independent CE state That's why I told Master Warder Z that the "immortality" thing wouldn't be the reason the humans would be kicked out from the Dales if independence happened, but all the history of abuses from the human overlords to their elven subjects. So, yes, City Elves.

 

The idea that Dalish elves and City elves will reach a miraculous understanding and live together in harmony, with the Dalish probably leading their brethren to pagan enlightment is naive at best. Not completely impossible, since stranger things have happened in real life (not to say in fictionland), but yes, very far-fetched.

 

I don't think its that far-fetched. I mean there is a cultural difference between them but if there is going to be an Elven nation then who'd better to lead than the Dalish? They have as much as lore as possible in case a new nation is to be started and judging from how elves at alieanage acted when they saw Marethari and how those in Amranthine acted when they saw Velanna I say city elves would let Dalish lead them. They were in awe and respected the Dalish. Many in fact want to join the Dalish but think its just a myth.

 

So far with current evidence the city elves respect the Dalish.