889 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Elves are better off than most racial minorities I've ever heard about. There is no organized discrimination against them, no actual laws that place them below humans. Only racial friction. People have managed to accomplish more starting with less.

 

One thing is certain, in my opinion. Integration with humans will be a hell of a lot easier for city elves than integration with the dalish.

I strongly disagree. While we've seen several successful examples of city elves joining the Dalish, I don't think we ever have with a city elf reaching equality with humans. In any case, such integration would eventually lead to their extinction due to being outbred.

[wcholcombe]

Spoiler

From what I recall, the rebellion wasn't actually happening and was a bluff by Gaspard to get Celene out of Val Royeaux, or something like that.

Spoiler

Some of the aspects of ME hint that the CEs will rebel.  Meanwhile the Dalish are chasing eluvians.  Not saying either side is wrong, just pointing out that it appears they are both pursuing their own separate path.

 

Look, I have nothing against the CEs or the Dalish trying to get independence one way or the other.  I still think they will be better served through a political pursuit than a militaristic one, but that is neither here nor there.

 

What I don't see is the CEs and the Dalish who both represent vastly different ways of life coming together as one reunited elven state.

 

I may be wrong.  I just don't see it.

 

You have 600 years of separation and divergence.  You have CEs that have an established way of life and doing things.  My human warden helped the Dalish in DAO.  However, there is nothing saying the Dalish are the good religion and the CEs following Andraste are the bad religion.  What does a CE smith or Wagon maker or seemstress or whatever care for the way of trees?  They don't.  It doesn't mean anything to them.

 

200 years ago my great great great grandfather was riding across the Llano Estacato following buffalo and killing commanches, if an apache tribe invited me to come live with them I wouldn't suddenly give up my life and become an apache of 200 years ago.  There may not be quite that technology divide between CEs and Dalish, but there is that cultural divide and that lifestyle divide.  The Dalish are very rural and nature oriented, the CE are urban and enconomically driven.

[Steelcan]

In any case, such integration would eventually lead to their extinction due to being outbred.

No, they'll just become a smaller and smaller minority

[Dean_the_Young]

Why would a consensual racial assimilation into another be a bad thing?

 

Are we going to support breeding programs next? Perhaps we should make it illegal and socially stigmatized for mixed-breeding and interracial relationships.

[Gwydden]

I strongly disagree. While we've seen several successful examples of city elves joining the Dalish, I don't think we ever have with a city elf reaching equality with humans. In any case, such integration would eventually lead to their extinction due to being outbred.

Maker forbid they lose their pointy ears.

 

Let me throw this idea out there: an elven country helps strengthen the "us" and "them" mentality. Then we have even more racial friction, with things being much worse in the end. That's one more reason it's a terrible idea.

 

And we do have examples of elves living in equal footing with humans. Llomerryn, anyone?

[LobselVith8]

Elves are better off than most racial minorities I've ever heard about. There is no organized discrimination against them, no actual laws that place them below humans. Only racial friction. People have managed to accomplish more starting with less.

One thing is certain, in my opinion. Integration with humans will be a hell of a lot easier for city elves than integration with the dalish.

The homes of city elves who try to live outside the Alienages tend to get burned down by humans, and do I even need to point out the horrible outcomes that happen if an Elven Bann other than the City Elf Warden leads the Alienage?

There's also the purges of Alienages; we could see the results of the last one from the massacre of the orphanage.

[Gwydden]

The homes of city elves who try to live outside the Alienages tend to get burned down by humans, and do I even need to point out the horrible outcomes that happen if an Elven Bann other than the City Elf Warden leads the Alienage?

There's also the purges of Alienages; we could see the results of the last one from the massacre of the orphanage.

Right, racial friction.

[Steelcan]

The homes of city elves who try to live outside the Alienages tend to get burned down by humans, and do I even need to point out the horrible outcomes that happen if an Elven Bann other than the City Elf Warden leads the Alienage?

There's also the purges of Alienages; we could see the results of the last one from the massacre of the orphanage.

 

Yes, now please tell me which of those are actual laws and not just people being pricks?

[LobselVith8]

No, they'll just become a smaller and smaller minority

In other words, the elves won't be in a position to do something about the racial discrimination they face, as well as the purges that kill men, women, and children?

[Dean_the_Young]

Man, he really struggles with this reading comprehension thing doesn't he?

[LobselVith8]

Yes, now please tell me which of those are actual laws and not just people being pricks?

The purge was legal.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Some already do? Hence even Velanna can by the end events of Awakening.

The Dalish culture is xenophobic about humans. They believe humans to be the cause of the Quickening and the only way to reverse it is to keep humans away from them. That is not a good viewpoint for a nation surrounded by human ones. 

[LobselVith8]

Man, he really struggles with this reading comprehension thing doesn't he?

You really should know by now that baiting me isn't going to work. It certainly didn't work when you derailed the Vivienne thread to demonize Xil about which characters she favors and which ones she dislikes. Maybe you should try sticking to the topics at hand instead of trolling people?

[Master Warder Z_]

Soldiers can be trained a lot easier than ambassadors can. City Elves can learn to fight, but can the Dalish learn to tolerate humans?

 

They will have to if they ever want a recognized State, stable economic trade and protection from the issues plaguing the world.

 

Humanity is the dominant influence in Thedas, Orlais can fade into the mists of time and that won't change.

[Steelcan]

The purge was legal.

Who knew that putting down armed uprisings was a horrible thing to do?

[LobselVith8]

Who knew that putting down armed uprisings was a horrible thing to do?

I doubt the children in the orphanage were a real threat to anyone.

[Dean_the_Young]

You really should know by now that baiting me isn't going to work.

 

Baiting you? Heavens no- your response is hardly the goal.
 

 

It certainly didn't work when you derailed the Vivienne thread to demonize Xil about which characters she favors and which ones she dislikes.

 

 

Xil's conduct in the Vivienne thread derailed it. I simply let it go on. Xil's tendency to favor murderers and lunatics who agree with her over non-murderers and sane dissidents who don't is her own prerogative- it's just one that doesn't work well when trying to be an adjudicator on character morality.
 

 

Maybe you should try sticking to the topics at hand instead of trolling people?

 

If you were capable of replying to these sort of topics without the same strawman arguments you used two years ago, your appeal to addressing a topic might be appealing.

 

You could, of course, simply not reply... but where would your fun at trying to get the last word be?

[LobselVith8]

Xil's conduct in the Vivienne thread derailed it. I simply let it go on. Xil's tendency to favor murderers and lunatics who agree with her over non-murderers and sane dissidents who don't is her own prerogative- it's just one that doesn't work well when trying to be an adjudicator on character morality.

All Xil said was that saw Vivienne as a likely antagonist because if her political alignment and her opposition to the mage rebellion to end the status quo, and then responded to people who actively engaged her in discussion, like you.

Simply because Xil doesn't share your one-dimensional depiction of those characters doesn't merit your condemnation of her. It's ridiculously absurd how you act like Xil should capitulate to your opinion about those characters and their actions.

If you were capable of replying to these sort of topics without the same strawman arguments you used two years ago, your appeal to addressing a topic might be appealing.

You've spend pages of the Vivienne thread crucifying Xil because she didn't share your view on certain characters. You might want to keep that in mind before you act holier than thou with anyone in this community.

You could, of course, simply not reply... but where would your fun at trying to get the last word be?

You could have also not responded to me, or attempted a modicum of civility at the very least. In fact, you could have simply accepted the fact that Xil doesn't see those characters in the same way that you do, without mudslinging and demeaning who she is simply because it contradicts your opinions on the matter.

[Steelcan]

I doubt the children in the orphanage were a real threat to anyone.

 

Life ain't fair, doesn't make what happened in the Alienage illegal.  There was an armed uprising against the government, innocent people will be caught in the middle, sad but true.

[Wulfram]

I've never been clear whether there was an actual uprising in the Alienage.  At least, until Howe's men attacked.

 

There's no indication of any widescale uprising in the Origin, just 2 or 3 elves rescuing the kidnapped women, and that's resolved at the end.  It seems more like Howe was using it as a pretext.

[Dean_the_Young]

All Xil said was that saw Vivienne as a likely antagonist because if her political alignment and her opposition to the mage rebellion to end the status quo, and then responded to people who actively engaged her in discussion, like you.

Simply because Xil doesn't share your one-dimensional depiction of those characters doesn't merit your condemnation of her. It's ridiculously absurd how you act like Xil should capitulate to your opinion about those characters and their actions.


You've spend pages of the Vivienne thread crucifying Xil because she didn't share your view on certain characters. You might want to keep that in mind before you act holier than thou with anyone in this community.

 

 

Man, I love how I can predict what you'll do and how before you even do it. I won't ask you to ever change because you've kind of demonstrated you don't

 

 

You could have also not responded to me, or attempted a modicum of civility at the very least. In fact, you could have simply accepted the fact that Xil doesn't see those characters in the same way that you do, without mudslinging and demeaning who she is simply because it contradicts your opinions on the matter.

 

I could have, but I don't particularly care about getting the last word with you: besides the fact that you'll respond regardless, watching you try and get it anyways is more amusing. Civility was replaced with bemusement long ago once I realized it was wasted on you- you'll just ignore what other people say for repeating your own straw man regardless,

 

As for Xil, I'm quite fine with her having differing opinions from me. Plenty of people do, and I take no issue from it when they stick to their own reasons and preferences strictly as their own reasons and preferences. It's when Xil's pretensions of acting as an objective moral authority figure start to fire that she sets herself up.

[LobselVith8]

I've never been clear whether there was an actual uprising in the Alienage. At least, until Howe's men attacked.

There's no indication of any widescale uprising in the Origin, just 2 or 3 elves rescuing the kidnapped women, and that's resolved at the end. It seems more like Howe was using it as a pretext.

I'm guessing it depends on whether or not Vaughan was stopped by the City Elf protagonist, who may have presumably died if Duncan recruited someone from another background.

[Steelcan]

Man, I love how I can predict what you'll do and how before you even do it. I won't ask you to ever change because you've kind of demonstrated you don't

 

 

I could have, but I don't particularly care about getting the last word with you: besides the fact that you'll respond regardless, watching you try and get it anyways is more amusing. Civility was replaced with bemusement long ago once I realized it was wasted on you- you'll just ignore what other people say for repeating your own straw man regardless,

 

As for Xil, I'm quite fine with her having differing opinions from me. Plenty of people do, and I take no issue from it when they stick to their own reasons and preferences strictly as their own reasons and preferences. It's when Xil's pretensions of acting as an objective moral authority figure start to fire that she sets herself up.

 

+1

[EmissaryofLies]

I wonder if this is what it's like at the zoo. 

[LobselVith8]

I wonder if this is what it's like at the zoo.

There's less fecal matter being thrown about at the zoo.