889 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Nah we all friends here

[Shadow Fox]

Lob,Dean you guys know we have an ignore function now right?

[AresKeith]

Lob,Dean you guys know we have an ignore function now right?

 

And ruin the debate?

[Steelcan]

Lob,Dean you guys know we have an ignore function now right?

*shush*

 

*hands popcorn*

[Shadow Fox]

*shush*

 

*hands popcorn*

 Bu-But I- ...*sniffs* is that extra buttery?..  *takes popcorn*   

[TK514]

I love how I can leave the boards for a couple of days, come back and not need to read the intervening posts to know what's going on.

[Shadow Fox]

The homes of city elves who try to live outside the Alienages tend to get burned down by humans, and do I even need to point out the horrible outcomes that happen if an Elven Bann other than the City Elf Warden leads the Alienage?

There's also the purges of Alienages; we could see the results of the last one from the massacre of the orphanage.

Like Soris daring to marry a human woman he loves causing them to riot?

 

As much as I love them they can be just as bigoted towards humans.

[LobselVith8]

Like Soris daring to marry a human woman he loves causing them to riot?

As much as I love them they can be just as bigoted towards humans.

I don't deny that some elves are racist; the racism has certainly gone both ways. I was merely pointing out that elves trying to live alongside humans has ended in disaster. Even the elves being prosperous on their own is met with violence.

I think the only elf who doesn't endure this is the Champion's elven love interest, but the situation is rather unique (with the addition of the manor being occupied by a human noble instead of an entirely elven family).

[Dean_the_Young]

Lob,Dean you guys know we have an ignore function now right?

 

Know? Yes. Care? Not particularly: I have something of a ethical objection to simply pretending people I dislike and viewpoints I disagree with don't exist. Blinding yourself to other people's viewpoints because of how they go about supporting them also has the unintended consequence of limiting how you accept those other viewpoints in general. Once you block off one information source, blocking off another simply because it doesn't strike your impression of 'reasonable' becomes easier and easier, until you reach the point that you only get your news and information from a few viewpoints that agree with you and never challenge you to identify why you think what you do, and why you don't agree with others.

 

So yeah, I don't ignore Lob. I also still read opinion articles by Paul Krugman, Fox News, the Guardian, the New York Post, and even occassionally Russia Today. Given I stopped being offended by all of them years ago, they're just another tool to how other people I often (but not always) disagree with think.

[Mistic]

Like Soris daring to marry a human woman he loves causing them to riot?

 

As much as I love them they can be just as bigoted towards humans.

 

True. Having a CE independent nation doesn't mean that the humans will like them more, or the other way around. Racism is prevalent in almost every society in Thedas (with the exception of the Qunari, it seems). It's just that the 'holy war' excuse to make war will be unavailable for the neighboring human nations.

 

It happened in real life. When Poland and Lithuania converted to Catholicism, the German crusaders lost a lot of leverage. Did that mean they became friends? Hell, no, they killed each other for generations after that, but it was a very important step for the Polonia-Lithuania alliance to achieve respect in Europe.

 

[Aimi]

It happened in real life. When Poland and Lithuania converted to Catholicism, the German crusaders lost a lot of leverage. Did that mean they became friends? Hell, no, they killed each other for generations after that, but it was a very important step for the Polonia-Lithuania alliance to achieve respect in Europe.

So...is this your argument in favor of the Dalish becoming Andrastians? 

[Mistic]

So...is this your argument in favor of the Dalish becoming Andrastians? 

 

Not really. The Dalish have every right to keep on their traditions. They have survived that way for centuries, so they're not in a hurry. No, it was part of my argument for a possible CE nation to keep on being Andrastian, since the City Elves are already Andrastian and that would give them more leverage to stay independent.

 

Of course, it's not a fail-safe strategy. Religion is not the only casus belli around and nations already hate each other for pettier reasons, both in Thedas (coughLoghaincough) and in real life.

 

From a historical perspective, Eirene, what would you recommend to the Dalish? And to the City Elves?

[wcholcombe]

I love how I can leave the boards for a couple of days, come back and not need to read the intervening posts to know what's going on.

Couple of days?  I left for 6 months and the discussions were still the same.

[Master Warder Z_]

Couple of days?  I left for 6 months and the discussions were still the same.

 

I left for about Four last year, Came back and it was the same as before.

[renfrees]

I left for about Four last year, Came back and it was the same as before.

Feels like home, isn't it?

[LobselVith8]

True. Having a CE independent nation doesn't mean that the humans will like them more, or the other way around. Racism is prevalent in almost every society in Thedas (with the exception of the Qunari, it seems). It's just that the 'holy war' excuse to make war will be unavailable for the neighboring human nations.

 

It happened in real life. When Poland and Lithuania converted to Catholicism, the German crusaders lost a lot of leverage. Did that mean they became friends? Hell, no, they killed each other for generations after that, but it was a very important step for the Polonia-Lithuania alliance to achieve respect in Europe.

 

The main neighbor to contend with would be Orlais, and between the Mage-Templar War and the civil war, they could be in really bad shape, with the Inquisitor possibly either helping them, or leaving them to rot. I also think the Inquisition could be a factor, given how the Inquisitor could be an ally for the elves, and the organization can grow powerful and influential; it's something that the original Dales never had.

 

I think an alliance with Ferelden (with either ruler being progressive enough to ally with elven leaders of an independent Dales, given their willingness to provide the Hinterlands to the Elvhen) could be helpful as well.

[wcholcombe]

The main neighbor to contend with would be Orlais, and between the Mage-Templar War and the civil war, they could be in really bad shape, with the Inquisitor possibly either helping them, or leaving them to rot. I also think the Inquisition could be a factor, given how the Inquisitor could be an ally for the elves, and the organization can grow powerful and influential; it's something that the original Dales never had.

 

I think an alliance with Ferelden (with either ruler being progressive enough to ally with elven leaders of an independent Dales, given their willingness to provide the Hinterlands to the Elvhen) could be helpful as well.

Ferelden is going to ally with the Elves?  The same Ferelden that has a law on the books making it illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf?

 

Ferelden and Orlais would be their primary issues yes, though I would imagine Celene and Gaspard would both come to an agreement in a hurry if the dalish/CE suddenly declared independence.  Orlais's issues are at least in part due to boredom among the nobility, if Celene gave Gaspard a war to fight, he wouldn't be fighting her.

[Wulfram]

Ferelden is going to ally with the Elves?  The same Ferelden that has a law on the books making it illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf?

Where's that detail from?

[wcholcombe]

Where's that detail from?

Wiki:

 

"Similarly, local prejudices and violence against non-human residents—notably alienage elves—often go unpunished. In part this is pragmatism, as Ferelden king's law states that killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime."

[Lulupab]

Wiki:

 

"Similarly, local prejudices and violence against non-human residents—notably alienage elves—often go unpunished. In part this is pragmatism, as Ferelden king's law states that killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime."

 

Its odd that it implies someone doing the act of defending, not the elf. Can the elf kill humans in his own defense? Preferably not a noble. Its seems like a law preventing relationship between humans and elves rather than a discriminating one.

[LobselVith8]

Ferelden is going to ally with the Elves?  The same Ferelden that has a law on the books making it illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf?

 

I was thinking of the Ferelden being lead by a progressive enough leader where Alistair or Anora will allow an elven protagonist to become the new Bann, or where Alistair names the local elder to his court despite the intense controversy among humans that ensues.

 

Ferelden and Orlais would be their primary issues yes, though I would imagine Celene and Gaspard would both come to an agreement in a hurry if the dalish/CE suddenly declared independence.  Orlais's issues are at least in part due to boredom among the nobility, if Celene gave Gaspard a war to fight, he wouldn't be fighting her.

 

If the civil war during the Fifth Blight is any indication, I'm not so sure about that. Celene or Gaspard may be too entangled in the Game and vying for the throne to worry about a province with a sparse human population.

[wcholcombe]

Its odd that it implies someone doing the act of defending, not the elf. Can the elf kill humans in his own defense? Preferably not a noble. Its seems like a law preventing relationship between humans and elves rather than a discriminating one.

It says killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime.  It doesn't say a human killing a human, it says flat out killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

If the civil war during the Fifth Blight is any indication, I'm not so sure about that. Celene or Gaspard may be too entangled in the Game and vying for the throne to worry about a province with a sparse human population.

 

I'd say the International presidence it would set would be far more concerning to them then the loss of the province it self, what does it say when Orlais is so consumed and divided that it can allow a province to rebel? Little lone under the leadership of elves. Empire's can't sustain themselves when their international reputation is so stained.

[wcholcombe]

I was thinking of the Ferelden being lead by a progressive enough leader where Alistair or Anora will allow an elven protagonist to become the new Bann, or where Alistair names the local elder to his court despite the intense controversy among humans that ensues.

 

 

If the civil war during the Fifth Blight is any indication, I'm not so sure about that. Celene or Gaspard may be too entangled in the Game and vying for the throne to worry about a province with a sparse human population.

That is possible, but we saw how well that works out in the end.

 

What civil war during the 5th blight?  The Orlesians were at the border to come into Ferelden and Loghain wouldn't let them.  From ME, a big part of the issue is that there isn't a unifying opponent for Orlais to concentrate on, the elves or dalish making there move would be such a unifying opponent.

[Master Warder Z_]

That is possible, but we saw how well that works out in the end.

 

What civil war during the 5th blight?  The Orlesians were at the border to come into Ferelden and Loghain wouldn't let them.  From ME, a big part of the issue is that there isn't a unifying opponent for Orlais to concentrate on, the elves or dalish making there move would be such a unifying opponent.

 

Still disapointed about Gaspard not striving to eliminate the game from Orlais, that was a big driving point for the character to me, something to unite Orlais as an empire together besides its nobility just waging a war with it self in the shadows.