889 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

I'm just hoping we'll get a nuanced picture of both cultures between the book and the game. Dalish (and city elf) and Orlesian. Individuals. Good and bad. Great and horrible. Relishing in their culture and rejecting it. Being the best example of their kind... and the worst. Again, all on an individual level.

[renfrees]

I'm getting tired of Dalish, being portrayed as arrogant bigots 

[wcholcombe]

The whole "kill every human in Orlais and abandon the city elves" thing. But I'm beginning to become so exasperated that it's almost seeming appealing.

From the preview?  Oh geez, we don't know the context of that, we don't know the setting.  As was said there were multiple pages exempted, the key plot events were obviously taken out.

 

Why would the dalish care about the city elves though?  The lore has said since the beginning that the dalish don't specifically care for the city elves.

[Mistic]

Then hopefully we get exactly the same crack at the Orlesians.

 

Well, apart from Celene, the vast majority of the Orlesians that appeared in the preview were either elitists, bigots (against elves and against Fereldans too), warmongers, backstabbers or all of it.

 

The whole "kill every human in Orlais and abandon the city elves" thing. But I'm beginning to become so exasperated that it's almost seeming appealing.

 

No, no, it wasn't worded as "kill every human", but "let's hope every human dies". It's just a wish, they weren't taking any action to achieve that. That's being an isolationist, bigoted jerkass, not a genocidal maniac.

 

As far as we've seen, Dalish tend to be isolationist. Ok, there are some exceptions, but they seem to be just that, exceptions. And then you can be an isolationist without being a jerk, but some of them will be.

[dragonflight288]

I'm getting tired of Dalish, being portrayed as arrogant bigots 

 

Oh, I don't know. It was certainly fun being Hawke and accomplishing things they said were impossible because their hunters failed. Like Master Ilen getting offended if Hawke offers to help clear out darkspawn from the area with ironbark, because the very thought of a shemlen succeeding where their hunters failed was an insult. Or that one hunter who gets so offended when Hawke goes "Oh dear, I seem to have left my point-ears and self-righteousness at home."

 

I know that the clans are individually different from one another, but it would be nice to meet some clans beyond Lanaya that have less problems with their pride concerning humans.

[Xilizhra]

I'm just hoping we'll get a nuanced picture of both cultures between the book and the game. Dalish (and city elf) and Orlesian. Individuals. Good and bad. Great and horrible. Relishing in their culture and rejecting it. Being the best example of their kind... and the worst. Again, all on an individual level.

Frankly, I think I've heard all I need to about Orlais.

 

 

Well, apart from Celene, the vast majority of the Orlesians that appeared in the preview were either elitists, bigots (against elves and against Fereldans too), warmongers, backstabbers or all of it.

 

 

No, no, it wasn't worded as "kill every human", but "let's hope every human dies". It's just a wish, they weren't taking any action to achieve that. That's being an isolationist, bigoted jerkass, not a genocidal maniac.

 

As far as we've seen, Dalish tend to be isolationist. Ok, there are some exceptions, but they seem to be just that, exceptions. And then you can be an isolationist without being a jerk, but some of them will be.

I know. My hatred of Orlais was whipped up like two pages into the preview; I was kind of impressed by Weekes' crafting of something so intrinsically loathsome that its wretchedness oozes from their very (and very, very tacky and ostentatious) decorations themselves, and that was before anyone opened their mouth.

[LobselVith8]

Why would the dalish care about the city elves though?  The lore has said since the beginning that the dalish don't specifically care for the city elves.

 

For the same reason a Dalish clan took in an abandoned child who became Aveline the Knight, and irrevocably changed the lives of women in Thedas forever, or the same reason why Merrill cares about the elves from the Alienage and doesn't look down on them for not being Dalish.

 

It's a bit frustrating when a marginalized group is only depicted at their worst, and I think the simple hope is that the novel provides a nuanced look at the Dalish (especially given how the Sabrae clan were often depicted). Admittedly, it hasn't come out yet, so there's no need to rush to judgement (as Xil said), but I think some of us are simply hoping for a bit more than Dalish antagonists.

[Shadow Fox]

Well then stop looking for anything else in a culture built on racial superiority, jingoism and propaganda.

 

._. I hate to say it, but the Dalish are the Dalish, You might find some that aren't xenophobic bandits with a predilection towards killing humans, but you will also be exposed to those who are.

 

So maybe the fact they are portrayed that way, it is because that is what the PC is meant to encounter there?

I hope you realize you just described pretty much every culture real or fictional at one point or another right?

 

Yet humans and dwarves who are just as prejudiced are far more varied in terms of their individual views in game then the Dalish who all tend to be racist jerkasses across the board.

[Master Warder Z_]

I hope you realize you just described pretty much every culture real or fictional at one point or another right?

 

Yet humans and dwarves who are just as prejudiced are far more varied in terms of their individual views in game then the Dalish who all tend to be racist jerkasses across the board.

 

That's just how they are meant to be portrayed in those games then i suppose, nothing to be done for it.

[The Elder King]

I remain of my opinion that most countries, groups and organizations in Thedas aren't portrayed as 'good', and have horrible negative traits. We shouldn't forget that the vast majority of dwarves in Orzammar seems to support an horrible system, and the only one willing to chance things isn't an example of a good person. And Kal-Sharock doesn't seem a great place either.

[Xilizhra]

I remain of my opinion that most countries, groups and organizations in Thedas aren't portrayed as 'good', and have horrible negative traits. We shouldn't forget that the vast majority of dwarves in Orzammar seems to support an horrible system, and the only one willing to chance things isn't an example of a good person. And Kal-Sharock doesn't seem a great place either.

The Chantry is apparently being pushed as one without horrible negative traits. And the line about Bhelen isn't accurate either; enough of his supporters wanted to modify the caste system that Bhelen saying things like "no dwarf is without worth" was considered positive propaganda, in the Diamond Quarter no less.

 

As an aside, there are only two things I want to see of Orlais now. One being unlikely, but most appeasing to my currently enraged and id-dominated mind.

 

The other is even less likely, but would be utterly magnificent if the Dalish got it.

[wcholcombe]

For the same reason a Dalish clan took in an abandoned child who became Aveline the Knight, and irrevocably changed the lives of women in Thedas forever, or the same reason why Merrill cares about the elves from the Alienage and doesn't look down on them for not being Dalish.

 

It's a bit frustrating when a marginalized group is only depicted at their worst, and I think the simple hope is that the novel provides a nuanced look at the Dalish (especially given how the Sabrae clan were often depicted). Admittedly, it hasn't come out yet, so there's no need to rush to judgement (as Xil said), but I think some of us are simply hoping for a bit more than Dalish antagonists.

It isn't their worst.  They want to be left alone.  Taking in a needy child and caring about the city elves-who are obsitsibly citizens of a whole other country that tend to fear if not downright loathe you- during complex negotiations with the ruler of one of the most powerful countries on Thedas are two entirely different things.

 

This would be like me negotiating a business deal in Texas and being told that if we agreed to do this, the company would improve living conditions in Mexico. What the heck would I care business wise about living conditions in Mexico.

 

I don't think they will be antagonists, but at the same time I don't expect them to care about city elves nor be some welcoming presence when they encounter humans/dwarves/qunari who they culturally believe cause them to have shorter lives.

 

Wanting to be left alone doesn't make you evil.  It means you want to be left alone so other cultures get it through your thick heads and leave us alone!

[wcholcombe]

Indeed! In theory, the Clans and Dalish individuals are supposed to be varied among each other just like every other culture and race.

 

In practice, it's far more common to see all Dalish or all Clans depicted as extremely intolerant, isolationist, distrustful, insufferable, etc.

 

The fact that this many people are arguing that "as a culture" or "as a race" all Dalish/elves are inherently racist, xenophobic, genocidal, intolerant, extremely isolationist, etc. is exactly why BioWare's portrayal of the Dalish so far is a problem. We're told they're people like everyone else, but we're shown them being insufferable bastards on a much larger scale than people of every other race and culture.

 

I would like to see a more even and positive portrayal of the Dalish for once, like every other faction.

Dalish believe non dalish-specifically humans made them live shorter lives.  They isolate themselves as a cultural practice to try and recover their lost immortality correct?  To do so they have to be isolationist.

 

The idea that they are gonna establish trade and regular relations with other peoples who cause the quickening makes no sense.

[Master Warder Z_]

So... why isn't it the same with the Dalish?

 

Because we have only encountered two clans in the prior two games?

 

And those happened to fall into the bigoted extremist category.

[Xilizhra]

Dalish believe non dalish-specifically humans made them live shorter lives.  They isolate themselves as a cultural practice to try and recover their lost immortality correct?  To do so they have to be isolationist.

 

The idea that they are gonna establish trade and regular relations with other peoples who cause the quickening makes no sense.

Well, it would make far more sense for them to find out the exact mechanisms behind the Quickening to see if they could undo it magically, preferably while recovering more actual pieces of their past, instead of just bumming around Thedas not advancing their supposed racial quest.

[Aimi]

The Chantry is apparently being pushed as one without horrible negative traits. And the line about Bhelen isn't accurate either; enough of his supporters wanted to modify the caste system that Bhelen saying things like "no dwarf is without worth" was considered positive propaganda, in the Diamond Quarter no less.

 

As an aside, there are only two things I want to see of Orlais now. One being unlikely, but most appeasing to my currently enraged and id-dominated mind.

 

The other is even less likely, but would be utterly magnificent if the Dalish got it.

 

It's kind of funny to read this alongside complaints that the Dalish are too often portrayed as 'genocidal' and that this is unfair and unrealistic. I imagine the forum-warriors who seem invested in the Dalish are far more murderous than the Dalish that players actually encounter in-game.

[dragonflight288]

Because we have only encountered two clans in the prior two games?

 

And those happened to fall into the bigoted extremist category.

 

I would like to meet two clans to offset that then. 

[Shadow Fox]

That's just how they are meant to be portrayed in those games then i suppose, nothing to be done for it.

Then the Templars are obviously fanatical authoritarian tyrants who abuse innocent mages right?

[Xilizhra]

It's kind of funny to read this alongside complaints that the Dalish are too often portrayed as 'genocidal' and that this is unfair and unrealistic. I imagine the forum-warriors who seem invested in the Dalish are far more murderous than the Dalish that players actually encounter in-game.

As mentioned in said post, I'm extremely angry at this point in time. My inhibitions are lowered, and I always wanted to get across one if not both of those songs.

[wcholcombe]

Well, it would make far more sense for them to find out the exact mechanisms behind the Quickening to see if they could undo it magically, preferably while recovering more actual pieces of their past, instead of just bumming around Thedas not advancing their supposed racial quest.

Be that as it may, one of the primary things about Dalish we learned in DAO was that they seek to regain their immortality by isolating themselves from non dalish while seeking to recover their lost heritage.  It would make no sense for them now to start having warm friendly relations with populations they believe cost them their immortality.

[Master Warder Z_]

Then the Templars are obviously fanatical authoritarian tyrants who abuse innocent mages right?

 

That was seemingly the message to take from Dragon Age 2  

 

 

I would like to meet two clans to offset that then. 

 

Who knows you might get that chance one day.

[Xilizhra]

Be that as it may, one of the primary things about Dalish we learned in DAO was that they seek to regain their immortality by isolating themselves from non dalish while seeking to recover their lost heritage.  It would make no sense for them now to start having warm friendly relations with populations they believe cost them their immortality.

I don't give two flaming Chantry fragments about "warmth;" I care about them not being portrayed as brute antagonists.

[dragondreamer]

OK, spoilers incoming!

 

There's much left to be said, but the preview has very, very interesting bits.

 

Spoiler

Ok, it seems the news of the rebellion were greatly exaggerated... by Gaspard. Who else?

 

And there's this scene I want to read more about with Celene being held hostage by the Clan Virnehn of the Dalish, and trying to negotiate with them. But it doesn't seem to work well. Celene offers their Keeper and warleader (they're not the same, mind you) improved conditions for the City Elves, free emigration to the Dalish clans and honorary lordship over the Dales, trading partnership included. Look at that, I like that woman!

 

But the Dalish don't like that. The Keeper goes as far as saying that humans pollute them, that the City Elves are lost forever and that (I'm quoting here) "if you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alinage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to the Dales".

 

Then the Keeper goes on to mention the Way of the Three Trees as to decide what to do with the Empress. Nothing very pretty, though (you know what?, Vir Atish'an forever!, damn the Three Trees).

 

There's a mention about the elves seeking to unlock "ancient magical mirrors that allow the elves to travel undetected across all Orlais". It does ring a bell, doesn't it? And then something bad happens. The preview doesn't say what it was, but it seems magical and bad, very bad.

 

I really should stop looking at spoilers. 

Spoiler

Celene is really likeable so far.  But sounds like she ran into a really hostile clan, talk about bad luck.  I do hope we see a greater variety of clans considering the Arlathvhen would mean there should be a lot of them in the area.  (Also wonder if the Dalish Inquisitor will end up coming from any the clans in the book, hmm.)  But then again, a hostile clan might be more inclined to start a huge conflict to begin with, if they have the right fire lit under them.  More peaceful clans might just turn away from all this mess.

 

The business with the mirrors (that I assume are eluvians) reminds me of some old theories I had that the elves might somehow be responsible for the veil rips...  (And my theory did include some genocidal elves which seems a bit echoed here...)  I also seem to recall it being said sometime last year that it was going to turn out that Merrill fixing the mirror was going to be a bad thing in DA:I...  Even if it doesn't paint the elves in a good light, I am very intrigued.  Maybe they'll finally find out some real truths about their past...and maybe that will help them have a future.