I'm thankful they had the Illusive Man recognize that money and resources are ultimately trivial compared to far more powerful assets carried by people.
Money and resources are the most powerful assets there are. In fact, said assets of people are... duh dun na na! Resources.
Claiming that 'nothing' came out of Shepard's death and Lazarus is just ridiculously silly.
Making a claim such as yours with providing an argument is obtuse and silly.
Money and resources are the most powerful assets there are. In fact, said assets of people are... duh dun na na! Resources.
That's cute.
If no one was going to ackowledge Shepard's death, they could have just put him in a coma. It would have sounded less fishy. And they could have added a discussion with TIM to make Shepard joining Cerberus more convincing. It was just too quick. "Hey, you're back for the dead, now work for me even if my organization caused the slaughter of your entire platoon on Akuze, they killed Kahoku and made fucked up experiments without being able to deal with their consequences!".
Coma would have required a different incident, though. What happened to Shepard at the beginning pretty much necessitated resurrection from death. Now, if you want to rewrite the whole beginning sequence then fair enough, but I personally would want to keep it. My jaw was on the floor when the Normandy was exploding around me, when a section was exposed to space and debris was floating around, when Shepard gets knocked away from the escape pod and floats off into space. It's one of the best openings I've seen for a game.
Shepard could have tried to get help from the Alliance and the Council, then choose to work for TIM after seeing no one was going to do a damn about the situation. Why believe TIM straight away? The leader of a rogue organization that you've just met?It wouldn't change the overall plot, but it would have been much more believable for a suspicious Shepard or someone loyal to the Alliance. Building the SR2 had me puzzled too. Rebuilding such ad advanced ship, giving it to Shepard although his trustiness is questionable and he might turn on you causing the whole investment to be wasted after the collectors trouble had been dealt with. They're details to the overall plot, but they made both Shepard and TIM look like morons in my eyes.
Er, why? TIM turns out to be justified since Shepard always agrees to help him. And Shepard is the type of guy who'd do what it takes to help people and/or kill the Collectors right? Not to mention you have the dialogue option to say you don't believe TIM, to which he responds go to Freedom's progress and check it out, then decide. Sounds fair to me.
You're right. It did something. It succeeded in making the whole starting sequence facepalm-inducing and gave the option to choose between several wannabe-badass, cliché one-liners "You brought me back" "I got better" "They killed you and all it did was ****** you off" "Derpity derp I'm your clone and now I'll try to kill you".
I personally really liked several of those lines. Garrus' line in particular made me laugh.
That's cute.
That's obtuse. I suppose a Kirk summation from you is in order. In which case I can destroy it with a Hannibal Speech.
Tell me, what's more powerful than money and resources?
So does that mean your idols are Justin Bieber then? Miley Cyrus? Tom Cruise? Johnny Depp? After all, they're far richer than most captains of industry. And a hell of a lot richer then pretty much any academic, politician, intellectual. inventor. Or any warrior, if you roll that way.
Is that what 'power' looks like to you?
Coma would have required a different incident, though. What happened to Shepard at the beginning pretty much necessitated resurrection from death. Now, if you want to rewrite the whole beginning sequence then fair enough, but I personally would want to keep it. My jaw was on the floor when the Normandy was exploding around me, when a section was exposed to space and debris was floating around, when Shepard gets knocked away from the escape pod and floats off into space. It's one of the best openings I've seen for a game.
Er, why? TIM turns out to be justified since Shepard always agrees to help him. And Shepard is the type of guy who'd do what it takes to help people and/or kill the Collectors right? Not to mention you have the dialogue option to say you don't believe TIM, to which he responds go to Freedom's progress and check it out, then decide. Sounds fair to me.
I personally really liked several of those lines. Garrus' line in particular made me laugh.
There's very little discussion with TIM. I'm not arguing that Shepard chooses to work with him, everybody else was sitting on their asses. The execution is just a bit too rough. Shepard starts working with cerberus before talking to Anderson, to the council or his former squadmates. You can go to the citadel before going to omega, but you aren't given the chance to explain yourself and defend your cause to Anderson. I would have liked to call him for the council's and alliance's inaction, which caused Shepard's alliance with Cerberus in the first place. Insted, everyone talks about Shepard's "betrayal".
I agree about the starting sequence, I liked that scene too.
The main reason I didn't like the one liners (except for the "brought me back phrase", I loathed that one from the beginning for some reason) is that they're the only thing Shepard says about his death. Nobody has been reconstructed before in the ME universe, for all we know. Yet nobody cares. No one asks about how Shepard feels, no one is surprised. I understand the public doing so, after all Shepard was pretty much a legend and he could have pretended to be dead to go rogue, for all they know. But what about Shepard's squadmates? And Shepard himself? It was brushed off too quickly.
EDIT: Hm. Shepard could have turned on TIM when he was no longer useful, namely when he got enough trusted squadmates at his back and the collectors had been defeated. Which is what happens if you go Paragon at the end of ME2. The ship was also full of bugs and it had EDI. TIM probably didn't expect Miranda and EDI to help Shepard, provided they even survived the suicide mission. So TIM had good reasons to believe Shepard wouldn't turn on him while they were both useful for each other (ie the entire course of ME2). Thinking about it, TIM's plan isn't unreasonable.
Why is this an either/or thing? TIM's resources allow him to resurrect Shepard. I think it's fair to say the resources are only valuable insofar as your investment pays off. So in this case the combination of resources and the competence of Shepard pay off.
So does that mean your idols are Justin Bieber then? Miley Cyrus? Tom Cruise? Johnny Depp? After all, they're far richer than most captains of industry. And a hell of a lot richer then pretty much any academic, politician, intellectual. inventor. Or any warrior, if you roll that way.
Is that what 'power' looks like to you?
You just made up an argument again. And ascribed it to me. And made it appear ridiculous.
I win on the part of not committing logical fallacies. That, and you didn't even try to make an argument.
If money is what makes people powerful, then it stands to reason that the richest people are always the most powerful, does it not? So these celebrities, by your own definition, are more powerful than almost anyone.
There's very little discussion with TIM.
There's very little discussion needed. Shepard asks why he should trust what TIM is saying, and TIM says go see for yourself. What else is there to say there? Maybe Shepard should have insisted to speak with Anderson first (and since TIM is telling the truth I don't see why he'd decline so long as the convo is monitored) but even a cursory glance on the extranet would have confirmed TIM's accusation of the Alliance/Council's inability/unwillingness to help.
The main reason I didn't like the one liners (except for the "brought me back phrase", I loathed that one from the beginning for some reason) is that they're the only thing Shepard says about his death. Nobody has been reconstructed before in the ME universe, for all we know. Yet nobody cares. No one asks about how Shepard feels, no one is surprised. I understand the public doing so, after all Shepard was pretty much a legend and he could have pretended to be dead to go rogue, for all they know. But what about Shepard's squadmates? And Shepard himself? It was brushed off too quickly.
It may have been brushed off too quickly. If the first convo for your old squadmates had included a few lines about Shepard's resurrection would that have been enough? Even then I may have been annoyed by the repetition. As a player, after the second convo discussing my death I'd be thinking, "Yes, I got brought back, can we freaking get on with the story?"
It's true.
Having every character you meet gasp in wonder as Shepard regales the tale of his resurrection would quickly becoming tedious and narratively pointless. Just as it would quickly become irritating to have every character be struck in awe at all of the other things Shepard has done.
You're always free to assume such conversations happened off screen.
If money is what makes people powerful, then it stands to reason that the richest people are always the most powerful, does it not? So these celebrities, by your own definition, are more powerful than almost anyone.
Celebrities, I'm not sure. Corporate CEOs in Western society? Yeah, actually. They are completely above the law. The US government, for example, simply refuses to prosecute white collar criminals in powerful corporate positions, even though they brazenly break laws. That sounds like power to me.
I don't want to get into such a topic. Suffice it to say, that's simply not true.
I don't want to get into such a topic. Suffice it to say, that's simply not true.
http://www.rollingst...o-jail-20130214
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If money is what makes people powerful, then it stands to reason that the richest people are always the most powerful, does it not? So these celebrities, by your own definition, are more powerful than almost anyone.
No, because the captains of industry have a lot more wealth. As do the politicians. As do the producers and studio heads and men behind the men pulling all the strings. That said, do you deny the influence celebrities wield? And once more, you've ascribed another definition to me. You're telling me what you think I mean, and shutting me down when I tell you what I actually mean, because it gives you ammunition to throw at me.
I don't want to get into such a topic. Suffice it to say, that's simply not true.
It is absolutely true. And denying a claim without making an argument in response does not make you right.
Tell us David, who has the power?
There's very little discussion needed. Shepard asks why he should trust what TIM is saying, and TIM says go see for yourself. What else is there to say there? Maybe Shepard should have insisted to speak with Anderson first (and since TIM is telling the truth I don't see why he'd decline so long as the convo is monitored) but even a cursory glance on the extranet would have confirmed TIM's accusation of the Alliance/Council's inability/unwillingness to help.
It may have been brushed off too quickly. If the first convo for your old squadmates had included a few lines about Shepard's resurrection would that have been enough? Even then I may have been annoyed by the repetition. As a player, after the second convo discussing my death I'd be thinking, "Yes, I got brought back, can we freaking get on with the story?"
To be fair, the conversation about Shep's death would have really only been elaborate with Garrus and Tali. Maybe Joker and Chakwas.
Though I do wish you could discuss it, even if only a little, with some of the more spiritual squadmates, like Thane and Samara. Would've been interesting, I guess.
It may have been brushed off too quickly. If the first convo for your old squadmates had included a few lines about Shepard's resurrection would that have been enough? Even then I may have been annoyed by the repetition. As a player, after the second convo discussing my death I'd be thinking, "Yes, I got brought back, can we freaking get on with the story?"
It would have been enough, yes, coupled with one or two optional dialogues. Tali's first reaction was good, Shepard's response was kinda off though. I don't want the whole squad weeping about Shepard's death and nagging him with questions, just a bit of acknowlegdment. He used to be their commander after all.
It would have been enough, yes, coupled with one or two optional dialogues. Tali's first reaction was good, Shepard's response was kinda off though. I don't want the whole squad weeping about Shepard's death and nagging him with questions, just a bit of acknowlegdment. He used to be the commander after all.
Well obviously Liara isn't going to be shocked since she participated in the resurrection scheme. Garrus acknowledges it in his own bemused, sarcastic way (and by the time you get to him the rumors are already circulating about Shepard's return). Wrex just thought humans have redundant organs like krogans. And at Horizon the VS does acknowledge it (plus the VS's first arc in ME3 is about the questions surrounding both Shepard's resurrection and his connection to Cerberus).
Dunno. It was enough for me, I guess. Maybe the sticking point for you isn't the squad necessarily, but the way that the Council/Anderson angle plays out?
Well obviously Liara isn't going to be shocked since she participated in the resurrection scheme. Garrus acknowledges it in his own bemused, sarcastic way (and by the time you get to him the rumors are already circulating about Shepard's return). Wrex just thought humans have redundant organs like krogans. And at Horizon the VS does acknowledge it (plus the VS's first arc in ME3 is about the questions surrounding both Shepard's resurrection and his connection to Cerberus).
Dunno. It was enough for me, I guess. Maybe the sticking point for you isn't the squad necessarily, but the way that the Council/Anderson angle plays out?
Basically, I would change:
-Shepards explanation on why he works with Cerberus (mainly to Tali, Anderson and the VS) + the possibility to question the alliance/council and see the situation for himself before working with TIM.
-Shepard's opinion on his own death. Even just a scene would be enough, like the one in ME3. You can either dismiss it or be thoughtful. It just seemed weird that no one gave a ****, it's not like people get resurrected every day.
Still, a coma would be better imo. Even if it means changing the intro, which I liked too.
Coma would have required a different incident, though. What happened to Shepard at the beginning pretty much necessitated resurrection from death. Now, if you want to rewrite the whole beginning sequence then fair enough, but I personally would want to keep it. My jaw was on the floor when the Normandy was exploding around me, when a section was exposed to space and debris was floating around, when Shepard gets knocked away from the escape pod and floats off into space. It's one of the best openings I've seen for a game.
My jaw hit the floor too, but for entirely different reasons.
Then I spent the rest of the game waiting for an explanation that never came.
Then I got the explanation in ME3: "Resources!"
Of course! How could I have been so foolish! The answer to the Cure for Death is resources!
My jaw hit the floor too, but for entirely different reasons.
Like I said, people who played ME1 first probably approach the intro differently. The intro sequence was clearly intended to improve the introduction to the ME world for people like me, and it worked.
Of course! How could I have been so foolish! The answer to the Cure for Death is resources!
Psht, we didn't need Cerberus for that. The Catalyst already found a cure long ago.
What came of the Lazarus Project was a way for ME2 to bring in new players of the series, as happened with me. I think it's clear that was the point of that story development, right? So the question becomes whether more focus should have been given to the project itself. Perhaps, but as a new player to the series I cared far more about learning about the game universe and recruiting characters than what happened to Shepard at the beginning. In a real scenario, yes it would be a big deal. But would focusing on the Lazarus project have improved any of the main themes Mass Effect was going for? I suppose I should ask for clarification on what would have satisfied you. Personally I would have liked that cut Ashley dialogue about whether Shepard saw an afterlife to make it in, because it's not purely about Lazarus; it's also a great character moment.
As for Cerberus, Shepard may not bring up their actions in ME1, but other characters do, especially Tali who even brings up Cerberus' infiltration of the Flotilla from the second ME book. So the issue is recognized, even if all Shepards basically agree that it's necessary to work with Cerberus to stop the Collectors (and really, what other choice is there? No one else gives enough of a damn).
Ideally for me the whole Lazarus project idea would be scrapped (and the opening sequence would be kept, but in this case it doesn't seem likely that I can have both). I feel like the best way to continue a series is to not have the second installment start with a reset. As for replacing it I don't really have an idea on how to do that, one version I did like was by dean_the_young which basically had Shepard suffer a massive debilitating injury at which point the Council and Alliance abandon him as he is no longer of any use due to his injuries. That's when a certain medical group that's a Cerberus front uses state of the art technology to bring Shepard back, eventually they reveal themselves as Cerberus and the game continues mostly as normal. This idea has a steadier segway into working with Cerberus and avoids having to deal with resurection from death.
Which was the major problem I had with Lazurus, everything stemming from Shepard coming back from death seems awkwardly handled, it's jarring and suspends disbelief constantly. No one (except for Jacob's romance content) is curious about the cure from death, what it's like to die or even seems concerned about it. Dealing with such issues would probably get tedious after a while but it gets ignored completely and for me it's noticeable and it makes small but crucial parts of the story (like the beginning) hard to enjoy. I think if a story doesn't want to deal with those attending side issues the idea shouldn't be introduced in the first place.
If the game just had Lazurus as a problem it probably wouldn't have bothered me -- it's not even my main problem with ME2's story. But it does happen with things like the Cerberus reboot, the overly apathetic Alliance and Council, the myriad of little problems involving the Collectors, etc. These things just make the problems with Lazarus more grating to deal with. Overall I think the main narrative problem with it is that it makes ME2 a side story/reboot to ME1, not a continuation of the story from ME1.
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