454 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It must be asked, how were the collectors ever a threat? Their ship was destroyed in two shots by a ship with cruiser level firepower? (How did that Turian cruiser NOT kill it?) ME2's main plot had no impact on the overall story, and there was never any tension. 

[Iamjdr]

You do realize there is a big difference between knowing how to defeat an enemy and actually get it done.

Just look how much crap Frodo, Sam and everyone else had to go through just in order defeat the enemy in LoTR and they knew since the first book how to defeat the enemy.

The only problem there is that lotr is a very different type of story from mass effect, and it also means they would have to have shown us how to beat the reapers in the very first game for it to work the same.

All me1 really gave us to work with is if a reaper decideds it wants to stop killing everything in sight and take over a single ground unit then we can kill it, but attempting to get all the reapers to direct control some peons so we can take them out one by one while they are stunned is not a very good battle plan.

And lord of the rings is completely tied around the one ring, it has almost as much written about the ring as it does some of the characters. Not only the but the ring and Sauron are established in the lotr as a valid threat even before The Lord of the rings begins. For mass effects plot to work anything like lotr they would have had to know that the reapers were coming from probably the beginning of me1 and way more people then basically just shep would need to have some idea of this impending threat. then The could spend all three games to complete the crucible or what ever it is they decide is gonna be used to stop the reapers and deploy it when they arrive in the last game.

[fhs33721]

It is a magic wand. I don't like it one bit.

 

As for your second question, might I suggest you look up 'Projection' on Wikipedia or something. It's quite like the people who seem to think Liara is a lesser companion in gameplay because they don't like her character.

Then how do you suggest to solve the Reaper plot without some sort of space-magic Superweapon?

Sorry, but it just won't work in the narrative that was set up even back in ME1. The only really realistic way to end the trilogy would have been for Shepard to desperately try to ind a way to stop the Reapers, while s/he lost battle after battle and all his/her friends died left and right, only to fail ultimately and die, while the Reapers continue their cicles undeterred for eons to come.

 

But I doubt many players would have liked that.

[naddaya]

Then how do you suggest to solve the Reaper plot without some sort of space-magic Superweapon?

Sorry, but it just won't work in the narrative that was set up even back in ME1. The only really realistic way to end the trilogy would have been for Shepard to desperately try to ind a way to stop the Reapers, while s/he lost battle after battle and all his/her friends died left and right, only to fail ultimately and die, while the Reapers continue their cicles undeterred for eons to come.

 

But I doubt many players would have liked that.

 

An alliance with the geth. The geth can study reaper artifacts without fearing indoctrination. They are already advancing their technology on their own. Organics and Synthetics never joined their forces before, an alliance would be quite powerful. There's no need to completely erase the crucible from the plot, it could have been found and studied earlier and changed to a device that effects kinetic barriers. Less powerful, more balanced. It would feel less like a shameless plot device this way.

[CronoDragoon]

It must be asked, how were the collectors ever a threat? Their ship was destroyed in two shots by a ship with cruiser level firepower? (How did that Turian cruiser NOT kill it?) ME2's main plot had no impact on the overall story, and there was never any tension. 

 

Because they could strike without warning and incapacitate entire colonies with seeker swarms, and because no one could attack their base since it was on the other end of the Omega 4 relay that, without the Reaper IFF, no one could survive traveling through.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Because they could strike without warning and incapacitate entire colonies with seeker swarms, and because no one could attack their base since it was on the other end of the Omega 4 relay that, without the Reaper IFF, no one could survive traveling through.

They had one ship. It was destroyed by two shots of cruiser-level firepower. Any incursion into a system with a scouting flotilla would result in its death. People wouldn't need to go through the Omega 4 relay, since the ship is now destroyed. 

[fhs33721]

1.As another user pointed out earlier, it shows that if you disable their barriers they can be defeated. Finding out how to disable them is the issue. Geth technology might help at that. Or else. It's already something to know that.

 

2.Controlling Saren might have tired Sovereign out, seeing how he wasn't completely indoctrinated still. We didn't know how much energy a reaper devotes to controlling indoctrinated subjects at that point. The only real plot-hole during the battle of the citadel was how Joker managed to get the Normandy there in time from Ilos.

 

1. Thats compeltely irrelevant to my main point, which is that Sovereign basically has no f***ing reason to enagage Shepard in a ridicioulus boss battle, that magically endangers his shields, to begin with. He is already docked on the Citadel and is alredy in the progress of opening the portal to darkspace. He should probably have concentrated on the fleet that was shooting at him instead of trying to kill that one gal/dude that stood around on the citadel.

 

2.By the time Sovereign was controlling Saren directly, Saren is dead already. So Sovereign is controlling a walking corpse. I doubt he still fights back against indoctrination hard. And again, even if it would cost him so much energy (which I hardly doubt), why would he do it in the first place. I thought he was supposed to be an ancient AI with vastly superior Intelligence. That doesn't really show.

 

Don't get me wrong, ME1 is a great game that is truly awesome and epic and I personally don't particular mind the whole Sovereign bossfight asspull that much, but it is a rather big asspull nonetheless.

[TTTX]

Because they could strike without warning and incapacitate entire colonies with seeker swarms, and because no one could attack their base since it was on the other end of the Omega 4 relay that, without the Reaper IFF, no one could survive traveling through.

Problem is that Collectors don't have many ships and even though the Collector base got destroyed the collectors still live on and I doubt it would take long for the Reapers to make new Seeker swarms, much like how they made a Rachni Queen (if you killed the one in ME1).

[fhs33721]

They had one ship. It was destroyed by two shots of cruiser-level firepower. Any incursion into a system with a scouting flotilla would result in its death. People wouldn't need to go through the Omega 4 relay, since the ship is now destroyed. 

I think they had more than one ship. You just encountered the same ship over and over again, because it was hunting you.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Then how do you suggest to solve the Reaper plot without some sort of space-magic Superweapon?

Sorry, but it just won't work in the narrative that was set up even back in ME1. The only really realistic way to end the trilogy would have been for Shepard to desperately try to ind a way to stop the Reapers, while s/he lost battle after battle and all his/her friends died left and right, only to fail ultimately and die, while the Reapers continue their cicles undeterred for eons to come.

 

But I doubt many players would have liked that.

 

Here's David's suggestion. It's in the first 10 pages or so.

[TTTX]

They had one ship. It was destroyed by two shots of cruiser-level firepower. Any incursion into a system with a scouting flotilla would result in its death. People wouldn't need to go through the Omega 4 relay, since the ship is now destroyed. 

Actually they had two ships we know off.

 

 

1. Thats compeltely irrelevant to my main point, which is that Sovereign basically has no f***ing reason to enagage Shepard in a ridicioulus boss battle, that magically endangers his shields, to begin with. He is already docked on the Citadel and is alredy in the progress of opening the portal to darkspace. He should probably have concentrated on the fleet that was shooting at him instead of trying to kill that one gal/dude that stood around on the citadel.

 

2.By the time Sovereign was controlling Saren directly, Saren is dead already. So Sovereign is controlling a walking corpse. I doubt he still fights back against indoctrination hard. And again, even if it would cost him so much energy (which I hardly doubt), why would he do it in the first place. I thought he was supposed to be an ancient AI with vastly superior Intelligence. That doesn't really show.

 

Don't get me wrong, ME1 is a great game that is truly awesome and epic and I personally don't particular mind the whole Sovereign bossfight asspull that much, but it is a rather big asspull nonetheless.

I personal think Sovereign got pissed at Shepard, because s/he kept meddling in his plans.

So he decide to take on Shepard in order to lay down the law which backfired.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Here's David's suggestion. It's in the first 10 pages or so.

 

If I remember correctly David's brilliant plan was to have everyone do the exact same thing as they were before, only in this case they won.

[naddaya]

I personal think Sovereign got pissed at Shepard, because s/he kept meddling in his plans.

So he decide to take on Shepard in order to lay down the law which backfired.

 

I assumed this too. No organic had challenged a reaper in that manner before, Sovereign's pride led it to underestimate the danger. It was still a dumb move, yes. But reapers never acted very intelligently anyway, for all their talk about "superior intelligence", so it didn't really surprise me. Sovereign sounded pretty offended in Virmire.

[fhs33721]

An alliance with the geth. The geth can study reaper artifacts without fearing indoctrination. They are already advancing their technology on their own. Organics and Synthetics never joined their forces before, an alliance would be quite powerful. There's no need to completely erase the crucible from the plot, it could have been found and studied earlier and changed to a device that effects kinetic barriers. Less powerful, more balanced. It would feel less like a shameless plot device this way.

 

As you even admit yourself, in this version the magic wand is just better veiled but still exists. Thats because the writing of ME1 already establishes the Reapers as  invincible foes. Therefore some sort of asspull-space-magic is needed to beat them. (Not that I mind asspull space magic. Sometimes it can be enteraining enough in the narrative.)

 

 

Here's David's suggestion. It's in the first 10 pages or so.

Let me guess: I don't really want to read this? Right?

[naddaya]

As you even admit yourself, in this version the magic wand is just better veiled but still exists. Thats because the writing of ME1 already establishes the Reapers as  invincible foes. Therefore some sort of asspull-space-magic is needed to beat them. (Not that I mind asspull space magic. Sometimes it can be enteraining enough in the narrative.)

 

 

Had the reaper invasion come later, an ordinary defense may have been enough. All species working together, building a giant fleet, enhancing their technology over decades with the help of the geth could have worked. Perhaps. With the current conditions, yep, a magic wand is needed. It could be executed better, but it would still be there.

[fhs33721]

I personal think Sovereign got pissed at Shepard, because s/he kept meddling in his plans.

So he decide to take on Shepard in order to lay down the law which backfired.

 

So it boils down to "Humans only won because Sovereign did the most stupid thing he could do in this particular situation" again.

Seriously the Reapers just have a serious case of typcal "villain stupidity" in order for Shepard to actually win against them. If any of them used as much as basic human-level common sense the galactic civilisation would have been fucked. I don't blame them though. It's a very common ilness in video game antagonists.

[Barquiel]

1. Thats compeltely irrelevant to my main point, which is that Sovereign basically has no f***ing reason to enagage Shepard in a ridicioulus boss battle, that magically endangers his shields, to begin with. He is already docked on the Citadel and is alredy in the progress of opening the portal to darkspace. He should probably have concentrated on the fleet that was shooting at him instead of trying to kill that one gal/dude that stood around on the citadel.

 

2.By the time Sovereign was controlling Saren directly, Saren is dead already. So Sovereign is controlling a walking corpse. I doubt he still fights back against indoctrination hard. And again, even if it would cost him so much energy (which I hardly doubt), why would he do it in the first place. I thought he was supposed to be an ancient AI with vastly superior Intelligence. That doesn't really show.

 

Don't get me wrong, ME1 is a great game that is truly awesome and epic and I personally don't particular mind the whole Sovereign bossfight asspull that much, but it is a rather big asspull nonetheless.

 

As far as I understood it, Sovereign can't control the Citadel from the outside.

Vigil's file gave Shepard control of "all systems" -> Sovereign needs its inside man (Saren) to open the relay again.

[ImaginaryMatter]

1. Thats compeltely irrelevant to my main point, which is that Sovereign basically has no f***ing reason to enagage Shepard in a ridicioulus boss battle, that magically endangers his shields, to begin with. He is already docked on the Citadel and is alredy in the progress of opening the portal to darkspace. He should probably have concentrated on the fleet that was shooting at him instead of trying to kill that one gal/dude that stood around on the citadel.

 

2.By the time Sovereign was controlling Saren directly, Saren is dead already. So Sovereign is controlling a walking corpse. I doubt he still fights back against indoctrination hard. And again, even if it would cost him so much energy (which I hardly doubt), why would he do it in the first place. I thought he was supposed to be an ancient AI with vastly superior Intelligence. That doesn't really show.

 

Don't get me wrong, ME1 is a great game that is truly awesome and epic and I personally don't particular mind the whole Sovereign bossfight asspull that much, but it is a rather big asspull nonetheless.

 

If I remember correctly the tidbit about Sovereign losing his shields due to Sarren hoppers death was only confirmed in ME3, before then it was specualtion based on the timing of the two events in the narrative, although the Battle of the Citadel entry has it down as a coincidense.

 

If that's the case pre ME3 there might be a valid explanation to fill in the plot hole of Sovereign assuming direct control. Imagine that Sovereneign learns it cannot open the Citadel Relay from his perch atop the tower in time or at all. In this case the barrage from the Alliance fleets are draining it's shields and they will fall if it continues to try to operate the Citadel from the outside (because of the Prothean virus). So, Sovereign assumes control of the now dead Sarren to deal with Shepard and friends, and remove the obstructing Prothean virus (how Vigil got this seems like the biggest plot hole to me). Unfortunately for Sovereign, Saren hopper fails and shortly after Sovereign runs out of juice and it's barriers fall along with the energy needed to maintain a magnetic clamp to the Citadel, where it is then promptly destroyed.

 

Obviously the bad part about this is that it is not the cannon version, but I think it gives a better reason for Sovereign assuming control.

[TTTX]

So it boils down to "Humans only won because Sovereign did the most stupid thing he could do in this particular situation" again.

Seriously the Reapers just have a serious case of typcal "villain stupidity" in order for Shepard to actually win against them. If any of them used as much as basic human-level common sense the galactic civilisation would have been fucked. I don't blame them though. It's a very common ilness in video game antagonists.

It's very possible Sovereign already thought he had won, he does say "I am Sovereign and this station is mine", so it's possible that he believed he friends was going to be here soon, but he just wanted to take care of the person who has been a pain at his side for to long before his friends shows up.

[CronoDragoon]

Agreed that Sovereign needs to get control again from the inside, but I think the others points stand. Specifically the reason why destroying the Saren corpse fries Sovereign's shields. The reason being.....?

[fhs33721]

Had the reaper invasion come later, an ordinary defense may have been enough. All species working together, building a giant fleet, enhancing their technology over decades with the help of the geth could have worked. Perhaps. With the current conditions, yep, a magic wand is needed. It could be executed better, but it would still be there.

How much later? A century? A millennia? I don't think anything short of a milennia would do, since I doubt that the current cycle could somehow come up with new technology and weapons in any shorter amount of time, that the Reapers in their million years of existance not already have. But I agree that the magic means to victory could have been handeled better.

[fhs33721]

Agreed that Sovereign needs to get control again from the inside, but I think the others points stand. Specifically the reason why destroying the Saren corpse fries Sovereign's shields. The reason being.....?

If I remember correctly Sovereign only needs Saren to open the arms of the citadel, which would be unpenetrable otherwise. The relay opening can be done once he is docked. Nothing suggests that he can't open the relay once Saren is dead. Companions still urge you to let the coucil die in order to quickly defeat Sovereign before he summons his friends. But I've only played the german version and things might have gone lost in translation or I might remember it wrong so correct me if I'm talking nonsense.

 

Still the destruction of Saren-husk frying  Sovereigns shield and making him flop over on his back like a dead spider is still kind of... WTF. Harbinger can have four of his controlled Husks die in five minutes and he doesn't seem to have this problem.

[TTTX]

If I remember correctly Sovereign only needs Saren to open the arms of the citadel, which would be unpenetrable otherwise. The relay opening can be done once he is docked. Nothing suggests that he can't open the relay once Saren is dead. Companions still urge you to let the coucil die in order to quickly defeat Sovereign before he summons his friends. But I've only played the german version and things might have gone lost in translation or I might remember it wrong so correct me if I'm talking nonsense.

 

Still the destruction of Saren-husk frying  Sovereigns shield and making him flop over on his back like a dead spider is still kind of... WTF. Harbinger can have four of his controlled Husks die in five minutes and he doesn't seem to have this problem.

Well Harbinger seems to be using the collector general to assume control of the lesser collectors and if you notice at the end of ME2 Harbinger releases control of the Collector general which indicates when Reapers take direct control on one of their minions and that minion dies while the Reaper is still in control the Reaper seems to lose all power for an unknown amount of time.

 

Which could indicate some sort of flaw in programming or something.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

If I remember correctly David's brilliant plan was to have everyone do the exact same thing as they were before, only in this case they won.

 

It was. Basically, he was asspulling conventional victory, just because.

[Bob from Accounting]

Reading that post, it's made explicitly clear it's discussing a victory on a minor planet.

 

So I'm not sure how you got 'conventional victory' out of that.

 

In fact, looking further, it seems to be arguing against a conventional victory based on those premises. It's condemning the possibility "the BSN, or at least a significant number of people on it, would be shrieking it's lungs out the conventional victory was not only possible, but even easy."