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[Astartes Marine]

Cerberus attacks Surkesh, Thessia, Citadel, they do what they want on Tuchanka with cruisers no less. Terrorist organisation which spent most of their money on Lazarus and Normandy SR2? Now TIM has a huge army and cruiser fleet! 

 

What is exactly "Reaper tech"? What it does? How exactly Cerberus use it?

 

I don't think wanting to have human enemies required plot decisions that were that awful. ME1 mostly had only Geth as enemies, it didn't stop it from being one of the better Bioware games. I guess we have to thank SuperMac for this too.

 

I'd say it's bad writing.  Rather than have a ton of new and different types of Reaper creatures like some of those concept creatures like the Reaper-ized Volus suicide exploder and the Reaper-ized Quarian with sentry drones, or the Reaper-ized Elcor with manned turrets on it's back.  Or there was one with a Reaper-ized Thresher Maw...

 

There are plenty of races and creatures that they could have used to make new and nasty enemies to fight in addition to the Geth and (some) Cerberus troops.  Instead we somehow get this massive Cerberus buildup in less than 6 months (time between ME2 - ME3) with absolutely no explanation or reason. 

 

 

There was one explanation of "it would be boring to always fight Husks", well we're not always fighting Husks and even then horde styled enemies CAN be fun to fight, Warhammer's Tyranids or Starcraft's Zerg for a great example. 

 

Another reason I've heard was that Cerberus was made in large numbers to help make the gameplay more enjoyable because of the above reason.  Well personally speaking, Cerberus was not fun to fight, I found them rather dull and among the easiest foes to defeat even on Insanity and Gold in multiplayer.  The Geth in both SP and MP are easily the most challenging with Reapers being straight in the middle.

[Bob from Accounting]

Gosh, how incredibly compelling. 'Cerberus was not fun to fight.'

[von uber]

Gosh, how incredibly compelling. 'Cerberus was not fun to fight.'

 

I found them incredibly tedious as well.

[Astartes Marine]

Gosh, how incredibly compelling. 'Cerberus was not fun to fight.'

 

My personal opinion, if you don't like it well then that's just too bad. 

I found them to be completely generic mooks that were added to the game just for more cannon fodder, they just happened to be worse at it than the other two factions.  Resources used for Cerberus could have instead been used to expand the other two forces, a great many concepts exist for many potential Reaper forces, many of which I would have like to see. 

As it stands we got stuck with humans (husk), Turians (Marauder), Asari (Banshee), Krogan/Turian (Brute), Batarians (Cannibal), and Rachni (Ravagers) whether we saved them back in ME1 or not.  No Volus, Salarians, Quarians, Yahg, Hanar, Elcor, Vorcha, Varren, Klixen, Virmire Pod Crabs (would make good land mines I'd bet) or bloody Thresher Maws.

[Bob from Accounting]

Cerberus could have been handled better. There's no doubt about that.

 

However, it's pretty disheartening to see how quickly most players seem to be willing to dismiss this issue as 'writers are stupid.' And it is an industry wide issue, no doubt. There seems to be a pretty common consenus that action is for stupid COD players, and developers and writers are foolish for depending on it to the extent that they do. 

 

Coming up with an antagonist to fight is no 'easy' issue. I can think of quite a few series that have literally been ruined because they run out of enemies to fight. Hell, look at the struggles on the forum to come up with an antagonist for the next game.

 

I've been chagrined to watch several videos discussing how video games are focusing too much on combat. And the guy spends 20 minutes citing examples of the obvious - that modern video games have a lot of combat and other mediums have less - and seems to assume it's self evident that developers are lazy and stupid and haven't done anything because they care about chasing COD.

 

Maybe I've just been looking in the wrong places. But it's quite clear there's no shortage of immensely lazy 'thinking' on this issue.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Reading that post, it's made explicitly clear it's discussing a victory on a minor planet.

 

So I'm not sure how you got 'conventional victory' out of that.

 

In fact, looking further, it seems to be arguing against a conventional victory based on those premises. It's condemning the possibility "the BSN, or at least a significant number of people on it, would be shrieking it's lungs out the conventional victory was not only possible, but even easy."

 

Reading the whole series of posts, it's made clear that you were referring to the entire war until a bunch of us called you out on it. Then you changed your argument. Which we also called you out on. Looking at it now, it still looks exactly like you're going for a conventional victory.

[Iamjdr]

I found them incredibly tedious as well.

I like having multiple factions to fight, changes up your tactics a bit. And personally I don't think any of the other mooks are more or less difficult, they are just different which is part of the fun imo.

Tho I would definitely like to see more variation of reaper troops. Cause who wouldn't like seeing the reaperfied versions of vorcha and salarians or maybe actual krogans as opposed to the hybrid brutes.

[Astartes Marine]

 

However, it's pretty disheartening to see how quickly most players seem to be willing to dismiss this issue as 'writers are stupid.' And it is an industry wide issue, no doubt. There seems to be a pretty common consenus that action is for stupid COD players, and developers and writers are foolish for depending on it to the extent that they do. 

 

In terms of enemy variety I think that was more of a time issue.  There are many Reaper concepts, but each of those would be a model, that requires textures, and physics, and AI, etc etc. 

 

No the part that I felt was bad writing was Cerberus suddenly going from a handful of small personnel cells and nearly bankrupted thanks to Lazarus and SR2 Normandy to numberless legions of troops armed with advanced armor and weaponry with fleets of powerful warships and fighter craft with no explanation in a very small period of time. 

[Bob from Accounting]

First of all, ME 3 has more enemies than pretty much any game that isn't open world. 15 or so enemy types is a very high bar for a game with shooting combat. And that doesn't touch DLC enemies. So let's not make implications that corners were cut in that area. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

First of all, ME 3 has more enemies than pretty much any game that isn't open world. 15 or so enemy types is a very high bar for a game with shooting combat. And that doesn't touch DLC enemies. So let's not make implications that corners were cut in that area. 

 

Gears of war 3 beat it's enemy type count by at least 5.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Gears of war 3 beat it's enemy type count by at least 5.

 

As does KotOR. Both of them.

 

As does Dragon Age. Both of them. 

 

As does TOR.

 

As does several of the Assassin's Creed's.

 

As does Far Cry 3.

 

As does Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

 

As does Grand Theft Auto.

 

As does any Operation Flashpoint sim.

 

As does any Legend of Zelda game.

 

As do the other Gears of War games.

 

And any other game that you care to mention that beats ME3 in this aspect.

 

What is David even using as a model for combat? Corners weren't necessarily cut, but there was nothing really innovative or special about the gameplay either. They didn't use the system they had to the fullest. They were pretty average with their gameplay.

[Invisible Man]

Cerberus could have been handled better. There's no doubt about that.
 
However, it's pretty disheartening to see how quickly most players seem to be willing to dismiss this issue as 'writers are stupid.' And it is an industry wide issue, no doubt. There seems to be a pretty common consenus that action is for stupid COD players, and developers and writers are foolish for depending on it to the extent that they do. 
 
Coming up with an antagonist to fight is no 'easy' issue. I can think of quite a few series that have literally been ruined because they run out of enemies to fight. Hell, look at the struggles on the forum to come up with an antagonist for the next game.
 
I've been chagrined to watch several videos discussing how video games are focusing too much on combat. And the guy spends 20 minutes citing examples of the obvious - that modern video games have a lot of combat and other mediums have less - and seems to assume it's self evident that developers are lazy and stupid and haven't done anything because they care about chasing COD.
 
Maybe I've just been looking in the wrong places. But it's quite clear there's no shortage of immensely lazy 'thinking' on this issue.

what's your point here bob? are you saying we shouldn't be complaining about bioware because everybody else does it too? or should we be complaining about every studio being lazy money grubbing SOBs? or should we all be blaming call of duty, gears of war, medal of honor, and similar types of games for the general stagnation of the gaming industry? I'm not trying to sound touchy, I just don't see what you're trying to say.

---edit
can't believe I misspelled medal of honor. I must be fatigued or something.

[Iamjdr]

No the part that I felt was bad writing was Cerberus suddenly going from a handful of small personnel cells and nearly bankrupted thanks to Lazarus and SR2 Normandy to numberless legions of troops armed with advanced armor and weaponry with fleets of powerful warships and fighter craft with no explanation in a very small period of time.

Well they had atleast 6months of pure recruitment time once shep gets locked up that I'm sure they took advantage of. Plus they also just start abducting people and tricking them to going to horizon. so I don't feel Cerberus's actuall troop numbers is that big of a deal.

And IMO I've always thought it was weird how they say they only have small groups working in me2, they couldn't have been that small seeing as there was almost 100 people in the science team on the derelict reaper alone. And that was only one of Cerberus's side projects.

Plus They must have been getting some type of incoming cash flow from all the there buisness fronts and the R&D Cerberus was doing in me2. In me2 alone we see they have 2 fairly large Cerberus stations, are running test on the Geth, investigating a derelict reaper, they have info on the collectors when know one else even knows they exsist they even have info on the shadow broker, plus they rebuilt shep and somehow even made the Normandy better then before. Now not all of these were successful but just the amount of work and effort there putting out on all these different things doesn't tell me that they arnt getting any progress with these side projects.

These guys are serious business, you don't make moves like Cerberus does and just run out of money, they had to be getting money from all kinda of different places. And I'm also of the opinion TIM had been stockpiling money, weapons and ships ever since he found out the reapers were coming originally. Which is a fairly long time If I remember correctly.

For me I just don't see how it would make sense for TIM who seems very educated to have Cerberus just spent every last penny they got on bringing shep back to life without a plan b if some sort. Especially when they don't even know 100% it will work, plus shep is a wild card anyways.

[Iamjdr]

Well that came out longer then I expected

[Mcfly616]

I still find it funny when people try to construe the significant investment Cerberus put towards the SR2 and Lazarus, as something that nearly "bankrupted" them....


Yeah.....no.

[Iamjdr]

I still find it funny when people try to construe the significant investment Cerberus put towards the SR2 and Lazarus, as something that nearly "bankrupted" them....


Yeah.....no.

I just don't see how it's possible to have the ability to bring people back from the dead and be able to build one of the most advanced ships in the galaxy and have all the other crazy stuff and intel that Cerberus has....and they just go bankrupt?

[DeinonSlayer]

I just don't see how it's possible to have the ability to bring people back from the dead and be able to build one of the most advanced ships in the galaxy and have all the other crazy stuff and intel that Cerberus has....and they just go bankrupt?

Well, they were also nearly hunted to extinction by a combined Alliance and Turian effort if I remember right...

[Bob from Accounting]

We seem to be back at the same nonsense that causes people to delude themselves into thinking that their favorite character also happens to be the best gameplay asset and their least favorite happens to be the worst.

 

Played Assassin's Creed 2. There were a total of 3 enemy types, period. Regular guards, agile guards, and brute guards. Maybe 4, if you count the heavy armored regular guards.

 

Played GTA 5. Cops, SWAT cops, the military people...gangsters, I guess. Helicopters.

 

Played Gears of War 2. Boy, was that game boring. Talk about a chore. Maybe 9 or 10 enemy types.

 

Far Cry 3. Soldiers, chargers, snipers, RPG guys, heavies, flamethrowers. I guess you could double that if you count the elite soliders with the exact same tactics different enemy types. There are animals, but you get no experience for fighting them and they're pretty rare.

[AlanC9]

No the part that I felt was bad writing was Cerberus suddenly going from a handful of small personnel cells and nearly bankrupted thanks to Lazarus and SR2 Normandy .......

Show of hands, folks. Who actually thought that Cerberus was actually nearly bankrupted at the end of ME2.

[AlanC9]

Gears of war 3 beat it's enemy type count by at least 5.

What counts as a different enemy type? Haven't played Gears, but if we're going to talk about this stuff let's start by not talking past each other.

[Star fury]

I'd say it's bad writing.  Rather than have a ton of new and different types of Reaper creatures like some of those concept creatures like the Reaper-ized Volus suicide exploder and the Reaper-ized Quarian with sentry drones, or the Reaper-ized Elcor with manned turrets on it's back.  Or there was one with a Reaper-ized Thresher Maw...

 

There are plenty of races and creatures that they could have used to make new and nasty enemies to fight in addition to the Geth and (some) Cerberus troops.  Instead we somehow get this massive Cerberus buildup in less than 6 months (time between ME2 - ME3) with absolutely no explanation or reason. 

 

 

There was one explanation of "it would be boring to always fight Husks", well we're not always fighting Husks and even then horde styled enemies CAN be fun to fight, Warhammer's Tyranids or Starcraft's Zerg for a great example. 

 

Another reason I've heard was that Cerberus was made in large numbers to help make the gameplay more enjoyable because of the above reason.  Well personally speaking, Cerberus was not fun to fight, I found them rather dull and among the easiest foes to defeat even on Insanity and Gold in multiplayer.  The Geth in both SP and MP are easily the most challenging with Reapers being straight in the middle.

Biower probably wanted to show us all work that went into making Cerberus. What I also don't understand is why almost never see Geth, I think we play against them only in three(?) missions? Then there is a inane cyberpunk mission during Rannoch arc.  

 

Reapers were the most difficult on all difficulties gold included with Cerberus on the second place, then biower in their infinite wisdom buffed Geth and made them almost unplayable(at least totally not fun) with stunlock and primes raping everything. Then they added Collectors + dragoons and bombers and Reapers became the easiest faction on gold with Collectors the most difficult.

[Star fury]

In terms of enemy variety I think that was more of a time issue.  There are many Reaper concepts, but each of those would be a model, that requires textures, and physics, and AI, etc etc. 

 

No the part that I felt was bad writing was Cerberus suddenly going from a handful of small personnel cells and nearly bankrupted thanks to Lazarus and SR2 Normandy to numberless legions of troops armed with advanced armor and weaponry with fleets of powerful warships and fighter craft with no explanation in a very small period of time. 

Cerberus was crippled and almost destroyed by Turians and Anderson prior to ME3 events according to ME novels. Then they have millions of soldiers and fleets with cruisers. 

[Frostmourne86]

Well they had atleast 6months of pure recruitment time once shep gets locked up that I'm sure they took advantage of. Plus they also just start abducting people and tricking them to going to horizon. so I don't feel Cerberus's actuall troop numbers is that big of a deal.

And IMO I've always thought it was weird how they say they only have small groups working in me2, they couldn't have been that small seeing as there was almost 100 people in the science team on the derelict reaper alone. And that was only one of Cerberus's side projects.

Plus They must have been getting some type of incoming cash flow from all the there buisness fronts and the R&D Cerberus was doing in me2. In me2 alone we see they have 2 fairly large Cerberus stations, are running test on the Geth, investigating a derelict reaper, they have info on the collectors when know one else even knows they exsist they even have info on the shadow broker, plus they rebuilt shep and somehow even made the Normandy better then before. Now not all of these were successful but just the amount of work and effort there putting out on all these different things doesn't tell me that they arnt getting any progress with these side projects.

These guys are serious business, you don't make moves like Cerberus does and just run out of money, they had to be getting money from all kinda of different places. And I'm also of the opinion TIM had been stockpiling money, weapons and ships ever since he found out the reapers were coming originally. Which is a fairly long time If I remember correctly.

For me I just don't see how it would make sense for TIM who seems very educated to have Cerberus just spent every last penny they got on bringing shep back to life without a plan b if some sort. Especially when they don't even know 100% it will work, plus shep is a wild card anyways.

The way EDI said the information on how Cerberus was set up led me to think that there might be 150 Operatives (a la Miranda and Jacob) each with their own number of support staff, security, etc. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

What counts as a different enemy type? Haven't played Gears, but if we're going to talk about this stuff let's start by not talking past each other.

 

Enemy types would probably be enemies you fight in the games, like character models with unique animations or looks to them. Whether this applies to multiplayer or not I'm not sure.

 

Regardless, if we disclude multiplayer from both or include multiplayer from both, either way gears of war 3 wins. It has the regular locust faction with all their massive enemies, the lambent infected, which are both locust and human enemies infected with a living glowing bacterial parasite, and then regular humans if we include multiplayer.

 

Mass effect 3's is big, no doubt. But it isn't the biggest or in the top spot contenders when it comes to enemy types.

[AlanC9]

Biower probably wanted to show us all work that went into making Cerberus. What I also don't understand is why almost never see Geth, I think we play against them only in three(?) missions? Then there is a inane cyberpunk mission during Rannoch arc.  

 

 

That one's easy. The geth aren't our enemies. What, we should spend more time fighting things that aren't Reapers or allied with them?