454 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Not to mention it took Hackett multiple fleets to hit Cronos Station.

[Star fury]

Not to mention it took Hackett multiple fleets to hit Cronos Station.

Yep, exactly. It took two Alliance fleets to defeat Cerberus on Cronos Station.

[KaiserShep]

Cerberus was basically Lexcorp, Xanatos Industries and McDuck Enterprises combined with the space marines.

[fhs33721]

If you paid attention you might have noticed, that Salarians weren't preoccopied with getting their asses  kicked by the Reapers. Reapers hadn't attacked them at all when Cerberus curbstomps Salarians on their own homeworld. Earth was already under attack, batarians were butchered and salarians must have been in a state of red alert qith their fleets while their famed STG is the best intelligence service in the galaxy. But Cerberus just goes and openly fights on Surkesh without even bothering with infiltration.

 

Cerberus army is not really explained, okay they got unwilling recruits from the Sanctuary but how TIM armed his huge ground forces? How he equipped his soldiers, how he supplied them? Why Cerberus have advanced Atlas mechs while Alliance have nothing like that?

1.) l only stated that Cerberus isn't able to rival the alliance fleet and allies and that it only seems like that because the allied fleets have not many resources left to fight them.

 

2) I agree that Cerberus attacking Sur Kesh without prior warnig is probably not too realistic. On the other hand I don't think that them gaining the advantage on the Salarians at first is weird. Even the codex states that Salarians aren't very good when it comes to open warfare. They are extremely good at preventing to have open battles. But figthing in an actual battle it makes sense that Cerberus is able to hold its ground.

 

3)Come on now. If random lowlife mercenary bands in ME2 can get entire squadrons of their goons armed with up to date weapons then you can bet that Cerberus can do it as well. And they have an atlas for pure gameplay design. Also that these Atlasses don't look very impressive or advanced to me. It's basically an YMIR mech that is easier to kill because you just have to shot the pilot and don't have to destroy the entire thing.

 

 

Yep, exactly. It took two Alliance fleets to defeat Cerberus on Cronos Station.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

If I remember it right they won easily. So what's the problem here?

 

Yes, the ME3 story has many plotholes but do we really have to nitpick everything apart and complain about something as TIMs army not being explained? I'm pretty new to the forum so I have to ask: Did people also do this in ME1 or just in ME3 because they apparently dislike it?

Because in ME1 we aren't given much of a explanation of how Saren was able to aford 2 huge-a*s bases on Noveria and Virmire. How he can aford to have dozens of high paid scientists and countless of mercenaries doing his bidding in addition to his Geth army. Is he a part time banker while he isn't doing Spectre work? Does he have a rich Daddy? Did he find a magical pile of credits inside Sovereign?

[Star fury]

 

2) I agree that Cerberus attacking Sur Kesh without prior warnig is probably not too realistic. On the other hand I don't think that them gaining the advantage on the Salarians at first is weird. Even the codex states that Salarians aren't very good when it comes to open warfare. They are extremely good at preventing to have open battles. But figthing in an actual battle it makes sense that Cerberus is able to hold its ground.

 

 

[KaiserShep]

Well, at least Kirrahe made it out without a scratch.

[fhs33721]

Yes? He even says it himself. "Glory in battle is not our way". Their strength is espionage and preventing crisis before it even happens. I already agreed that it is stupid that Cerberus could surprise them. Being able to hold themselves in battle isn't.

 

 

Well, at least Kirrahe made it out without a scratch.

Only if you actually do the sidemission. Else he dies I think.

[KaiserShep]

I meant during the attack on Surkesh.

[fhs33721]

I meant during the attack on Surkesh.

Oh sorry. That's of course true.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yes, the ME3 story has many plotholes but do we really have to nitpick everything apart and complain about something as TIMs army not being explained? I'm pretty new to the forum so I have to ask: Did people also do this in ME1 or just in ME3 because they apparently dislike it?

Because in ME1 we aren't given much of a explanation of how Saren was able to aford 2 huge-a*s bases on Noveria and Virmire. How he can aford to have dozens of high paid scientists and countless of mercenaries doing his bidding in addition to his Geth army. Is he a part time banker while he isn't doing Spectre work? Does he have a rich Daddy? Did he find a magical pile of credits inside Sovereign?

 

Ya, you can nitpick every game for plot holes pretty much all day (although ME1 to its credit will probably get the least nitpicked). The main problem with Cerberus however in ME3 is their effect on the narrative. ME3 is afterall the game where the Reapers finally invade, that the galaxy gets to see their true terror first hand and... the majority of the game is spent fighting Cerberus, a covert organization who was your ally a game ago. That's the main problem with Cerberus's ludicrous, out-of-thin-air forces. It allows them to completely outstage the Reapers as antagonists and it doesn't make much sense.

[fhs33721]

Ya, you can nitpick every game for plot holes pretty much all day (although ME1 to its credit will probably get the least nitpicked). The main problem with Cerberus however in ME3 is their effect on the narrative. ME3 is afterall the game where the Reapers finally invade, that the galaxy gets to see their true terror first hand and... the majority of the game is spent fighting Cerberus, a covert organization who was your ally a game ago. That's the main problem with Cerberus's ludicrous, out-of-thin-air forces. It allows them to completely outstage the Reapers as antagonists and it doesn't make much sense.

Actually it does. Mainly because the Reapers are basically written as unbeatable force. Therefore Cerberus serves the role to give the player the faction he can actually win against without space magic.

[Star fury]

Yes? He even says it himself. "Glory in battle is not our way". Their strength is espionage and preventing crisis before it even happens. I already agreed that it is stupid that Cerberus could surprise them. Being able to hold themselves in battle isn't.

Glory in battle. Spies don't get recognition but STG are still pretty good soldiers. If you listen carefully, Kirrahe says:

 

Our influence stopped the rachni, but before that we held the line!
Our influence stopped the krogan, but before that, we held the line!
Our influence will stop Saren; in the battle today, we will hold the line!”

[fhs33721]

Glory in battle. Spies don't get recognition but STG are still pretty good soldiers. If you listen carefully, Kirrahe says:

 

Our influence stopped the rachni, but before that we held the line!
Our influence stopped the krogan, but before that, we held the line!
Our influence will stop Saren; in the battle today, we will hold the line!”

Yes STG soldiers are good soldiers. And Cerberus mooks are fearless indoctrinated brutes that won't stop to attack until told so or every last of them is dead. They also outnumbered s at the time.

Also it is not like Cerberus took over Sur'kesh or anything. The salarians still won, but Cerberus put up a good fight. It was probably the first time the Salarians were completely surprised (which I agree is stupid) by an attack and probably didn't know what how to react at first. After all if the codex is any indication they aren't used to actually getting attacked on their own ground.

This is from the codex:

In every war the salarians have fought, they struck first and without warning. For the salarians, to know an enemy plans to attack and let it happen is folly; to announce their own plans to attack is insanity. They find the human moral concepts of "do not fire until fired upon" and "declare a war before prosecuting it" incredibly naive. In defensive wars, they execute devastating preemptive strikes hours before the enemy's own attacks.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Actually it does. Mainly because the Reapers are basically written as unbeatable force. Therefore Cerberus serves the role to give the player the faction he can actually win against without space magic.

 

So what? There doesn't need to be an ememy that Shepard has to beat through conventional means, we already have a central conflict: beat the Reapers; it doesn't matter how it's accomplished, i.e. space magic or no space magic. The problem with Cerberus is that they distract from this conflict and it creates a disconnect in the story. All the time that was used towards writing Cerberus could have been used to expand and polish upon the Reapers and Crucible, which cercertainly elements of the story that needed it.

 

Besides, I'm talking about the relationship between the two antagonists in the game. Cerberus is a secondary antagonist who completely outstages the primary Reapers. The series has built up through 2 games that the Reapers are the biggest threat. Yet, when we get to ME3 BioWare pulls a fast one and makes Cerberus the more dominate threat, or at least the more prominent one. Which faction do we engage in dialogue with? which faction robs us of victory that is close at Thessia? which factions kills the most former and current squadmates? It's all Cerberus. Because they are so encompassing the Reapers get pushed to the side and off-screen, and development that could have been used developing the Reapers and Crucible is instead used to retcon Cerberus, yet again.

 

Arguably the only reason to include Cerberus is because the Reapers are big towering robots and ME3 is a third person shooter, however, elements were in place to make the Reapers engagable at this level. They have husks and Indoctrinated personnel to serve as ground troops, they have names like Harbinger who can assume direct control or talk to us, maybe expand on that whole Synthetic/Organic thing so it doesn't come off as "what a twwwisst!".

 

In a game that should be about stopping the Reapers they get reduced to sharing a smaller portion of the screen with these jokers who are led by our former boss who's suddenly in looney Indoctrination land. The problem with Cerberus is that they exist to unfocus the story instead of refining it, to make it more consistant.

[CronoDragoon]

In a game that should be about stopping the Reapers they get reduced to sharing a smaller portion of the screen with these jokers who are led by our former boss who's suddenly in looney Indoctrination land. The problem with Cerberus is that they exist to unfocus the story instead of refining it, to make it more consistant.

 

But the Reapers are boring. In my mind they only exist as the big bad so you have reason to go around and do interesting things in the Mass Effect universe such as recruiting allies or making choices.

[ImaginaryMatter]

But the Reapers are boring. In my mind they only exist as the big bad so you have reason to go around and do interesting things in the Mass Effect universe such as recruiting allies or making choices.

 

That's why I say make them interesting. Or make the Crucible interesting.

[CronoDragoon]

That's why I say make them interesting. Or make the Crucible interesting.

 

Well, a lot of the ways I'd make the Reapers interesting are precluded by ME2 not advancing the story. I mean if any game made it clear that BW wasn't really interested in the Reapers as prominent antagonists it was that game, yeah? If you had discovered the Catalyst in ME2 though, you could have spent more time in ME3 delving into their backstory, fleshing out the fall of the Leviathans and the creation of the first Reaper, instead of summarizing them in a DLC.

 

But I don't think the way it turned out was an accident. In ME2 and ME3 the screentime is dominated by characters and the galaxy's special conflicts, because those are what BioWare excels at writing.

[Reorte]

But the Reapers are boring. In my mind they only exist as the big bad so you have reason to go around and do interesting things in the Mass Effect universe such as recruiting allies or making choices.

Pretty much how I feel, it's the characters and setting that I like, the Reapers just exist as an excuse to do something with those characters in that setting. Just about anything will do for that, which is why I like ME2 despite it's plot irrelevence. The plot is just backdrop in Mass Effect.

[von uber]

It may have been better for the Reapers to be fewer in number but rely on indoctrination more; something which Javik hints at with that planet that thought they could survive by murdering all their children.

[Iakus]

But the Reapers are boring. In my mind they only exist as the big bad so you have reason to go around and do interesting things in the Mass Effect universe such as recruiting allies or making choices.

 

The Reapers are boring because it was decided that the Reapers had to be an invincible focer of nature and "THEY CAN'T BE STOPPED CONVENTIONALLY!  OH NOES!"

 

Reduce their numbers to a couple hundred, let the galaxy do some lateral thinking, and make a fight of it, then allies and choices might have had meaning.

[CronoDragoon]

The Reapers are boring because it was decided that the Reapers had to be an invincible focer of nature and "THEY CAN'T BE STOPPED CONVENTIONALLY!  OH NOES!"

 

Reduce their numbers to a couple hundred, let the galaxy do some lateral thinking, and make a fight of it, then allies and choices might have had meaning.

 

Reducing their numbers would have done nothing to make the Reapers more interesting.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well, a lot of the ways I'd make the Reapers interesting are precluded by ME2 not advancing the story. I mean if any game made it clear that BW wasn't really interested in the Reapers as prominent antagonists it was that game, yeah? If you had discovered the Catalyst in ME2 though, you could have spent more time in ME3 delving into their backstory, fleshing out the fall of the Leviathans and the creation of the first Reaper, instead of summarizing them in a DLC.

 

But I don't think the way it turned out was an accident. In ME2 and ME3 the screentime is dominated by characters and the galaxy's special conflicts, because those are what BioWare excels at writing.

 

The best thing they could have done was build them up more in ME2, rather than just establishing they can be built with Organics. Though, I don't see how that stops them in ME3 from not retconning Cerberus yet again instead of building up some very other important parts to the story like the Crucible, Leviathans. or maybe some hints about what their grand purpose is, so it didn't feel like it was added on during the final hours of development. I'm just saying a lot of ME3 is devoted to how sneaky and crazy Cerberus is when there were undeveloped parts of the Reapers. There were all ready so many new and large scale things going on that they didn't need to distract from them with an other faction like Cerberus.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The reapers were an invincible force. They were interesting and compelling until they invaded. Once they invaded the galaxy it was the end times. It was hopeless without a "big gun to kill them all." You can't fight a 2 km invincible spaceship with a battle rifle. So there's the zombie shooter game. Well that gets boring. There's no variety of missions. The reapers are not a compelling enemy from a character standpoint. You really don't give a crap about them. This was the problem with the plot. It was the destruction of the Mass Effect Universe. Even united, there was no hope. 

 

The Illusive Man? Okay he's a villain, and he's got a personality. He's more compelling. So now you've got Cerberus. This is why we're fighting Cerberus. The story needed a compelling enemy: The Illusive Man. But they really were reaching. Cerberus shouldn't have had these kinds of resources. It was a real ass pull. And they really messed up Kai Leng. Bad writing. Should never have had Miranda switch sides in ME2, and had her running Cerberus ops in ME3. 

[Invisible Man]

the only way I'd find fighting reaper capital ships compelling, was if we boarded them commando style, and destroyed them from the inside. though, after a few raids your commando teams would be indoctrinated reaper lackeys. so that's out the window.

[naddaya]

the only way I'd find fighting reaper capital ships compelling, was if we boarded them commando style, and destroyed them from the inside. though, after a few raids your commando teams would be indoctrinated reaper lackeys. so that's out the window.

 

Geth could do that.