454 réponses à ce sujet

[TTTX]

On the one hand, I'm not sympathetic to the player wanting to control the presence, frequency, or content of their character's psychological affliction, as that misses the point of psychological afflictions.

 

On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me that post-dream when Liara asks what the nightmare is about, Shepard does talk about, I believe, either the kid or Virmire. There should have been more options there for the player to decide how their character interprets the dreams.

I for one find the dreams completely unnecessary mostly because at this point and time Shepard have already seen a lot bad things suddenly he/she loses it, have bad dreams and becomes sad? He/she is a soldier and even he/she says people die in war it shouldn't have that much of an impact on him/her.

 

So I have somewhat hard time seeing Shepard become all "People are dying and it's getting to me" for crying out loud it's war, not a trip down to the mall.

[CronoDragoon]

I for one would be just the dreams are completely unnecessary mostly because at this point and time Shepard have already seen a lot bad things suddenly he/she loses it, have bad dreams and becomes sad? He/she is a soldier and even he/she says people die in war it shouldn't have that much of an impact on him.

 

So I have somewhat hard time seeing Shepard become all "People are dying and it's getting to me" for crying out loud it's war, not a trip down to the mall.

 

But...that happens to soldiers all the time in war.

 

But besides that, the last dream is interesting because it's clearly no longer about the death and destruction per se, but rather the idea that Shepard is the one leading the galaxy to death and destruction through his direction; hence the kid running to Shepard only for both of them to burn.

[Iamjdr]

I for one find the dreams completely unnecessary mostly because at this point and time Shepard have already seen a lot bad things suddenly he/she loses it, have bad dreams and becomes sad? He/she is a soldier and even he/she says people die in war it shouldn't have that much of an impact on him/her.

So I have somewhat hard time seeing Shepard become all "People are dying and it's getting to me" for crying out loud it's war, not a trip down to the mall.

People die in war all the time yes, but how often do you watch your planet fall in less then a day and watch civilians young and old plus soldiers vaporized trying to evacuated the planet? Most people have never been in a real war and if they have they would probably know that just because people die all the time during war doesn't make it any less traumatic watching helpless people being slaughtered. Plus I still belive it does give you a little wiggle room anyways. I mean most people complain about how these dreams wouldn't affect shep but there is even an option to just say it's nothing and pretend like it's not happening. so I don't think there is honestly a problem with RP ability there.

I feel to many people think they need control over every aspect of shep, but when you think about it can you control what you dream about? What gives you nightmares? Or are they just something that happens and you either wake up and move on or sit around and wonder what they mean.

That's the control you have in this game, you define each shep with how you have them react with what you are givin. Hell, there have been many time throughout the trilogy where I couldn't say exactly what I myself was thinking, is that bad? I don't think so, I just choose which of the diolouge I was given that fits closest to my current sheps ideals. And honestly I can barley remember most of the dreams I have. I think people assume they should be able to define every aspect of each of there individual sheps in game or it's railroading or whatever, but that's not always how RPGs work. Sometime you gotta use your imagination and just kinda go with the flow.

[crimzontearz]

I'll give you the lack of battle armour.

However, generally speaking, the only reason ME1 sticks so close to the lore is because the lore was literally built around the gameplay. If they wanted to include some gameplay because it was "cool", Chris L'Etoile had to write the lore around it.
So when ME2 and 3 wanted to add new gameplay aspects like thermal clips and new biotic powers, they were compelled to break said absurdly specific lore.

I disagree...they did not, say, want to add thermal clips per se for instance, they wanted to have a reload mechanic to "add tension" so rather than implement a mechanic that worked like a reload but did not crap on the lore they added thermal clips "because they are cool" and added wrong math to justify it...

not to mention the whole "oh hey....btw biotics now protect from open space exposure...it's not a retcon tho"

that is poor design and poor storytelling

[TTTX]

But...that happens to soldiers all the time in war.

 

But besides that, the last dream is interesting because it's clearly no longer about the death and destruction per se, but rather the idea that Shepard is the one leading the galaxy to death and destruction through his direction; hence the kid running to Shepard only for both of them to burn.

Yeah, but Shepard have already seen worse then a kid being blown up and have lost friend/friends before ME3 so I don't believe Shepard would just lose it since he/she already knows the Reapers does very horrible things.

 

Sooo? The Galaxy is pretty much screwed no matter what Shepard does, death and destruction are going to happen no matter what might as well go down swinging.

[SNascimento]

as an example

ME1 sticks relatively closer to the lore, everyone wears armor in battle and so on....

rule of cool started taking over from ME2 on

I don't believe this statement to be accurate.

FIrst there is the obvious observation that ME1 was the first game in the series, therefore it's easy to understand why it would be closer to the lore.

The important thing though is that when someone say "rule of cool", I understand it as sacrificing the universe integrity just so something can look cooler. And most of the time that is not the case with ME2 and ME3 (although I focus mostly on ME2). Someome talked about how biotics got "crazier" in the sequels, but it was to make the game look cooler? No, it's to improve gameplay, and it succeed tremendously. Squadmates clothes, which is also an issue. That choice was made to give Shepard's companions an identity of their own, which I also worked. Although I admit sometimes they looked silly.

But yes, sometimes decisions are made that prioritizes how something look. Like the Battle of the Citadel in ME1. It's very different from what we came to expect from the Codex, because obviously that would have looked boring.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But...that happens to soldiers all the time in war.

 

But besides that, the last dream is interesting because it's clearly no longer about the death and destruction per se, but rather the idea that Shepard is the one leading the galaxy to death and destruction through his direction; hence the kid running to Shepard only for both of them to burn.

 

No, it's not. You're thinking too hard. The last dream is about Shepard's resignation to his/her own death. It foreshadows the ending in fire with the child... the glowboy.

 

The dreams were so unnecessary to the plot unless it was to give the child a story arc from the vent to the decision chamber. The child was, thus, the antagonist of the story.

[jtav]

@ TTTX

 

That's...not really the way PTSD works. Anything can become a trigger, even if the patient has suffered previous events that should be much worse.

 

No, the trouble is they didn't give the player a reason to care about the kid. The emotional manipulation is way too hamfisted.

[Iamjdr]

Yeah, but Shepard have already seen worse then a kid being blown up and have lost friend/friends before ME3 so I don't believe Shepard would just lose it since he/she already knows the Reapers does very horrible things.

Sooo? The Galaxy is pretty much screwed no matter what Shepard does, death and destruction are going to happen no matter what might as well go down swinging.

Having nightmares doesn't make you any less tough or any less able to go down swinging as we can see, shep fights till the very end dreams or no dreams. Also depending on your playthrough and background, Shep has only actually watched a few friends die and that we know of and that is mostly depending on how you did in the suicide mission. He doesn't actually see ash/Kaiden die on virmire nor mordin on Tachunka only people I recall to fersure die in front of shep is Jenkins and victus or the sole survivor background, and I seriously don't see them being any better of an emotional pull then the kid.

[TTTX]

People die in war all the time yes, but how often do you watch your planet fall in less then a day and watch civilians young and old plus soldiers vaporized trying to evacuated the planet? Most people have never been in a real war and if they have they would probably know that just because people die all the time during war doesn't make it any less traumatic watching helpless people being slaughtered. Plus I still belive it does give you a little wiggle room anyways. I mean most people complain about how these dreams wouldn't affect shep but there is even an option to just say it's nothing and pretend like it's not happening. so I don't think there is honestly a problem with RP ability there.

I feel to many people think they need control over every aspect of shep, but when you think about it can you control what you dream about? What gives you nightmares? Or are they just something that happens and you either wake up and move on or sit around and wonder what they mean.

That's the control you have in this game, you define each shep with how you have them react with what you are givin. Hell, there have been many time throughout the trilogy where I couldn't say exactly what I myself was thinking, is that bad? I don't think so, I just choose which of the diolouge I was given that fits closest to my current sheps ideals. And honestly I can barley remember most of the dreams I have. I think people assume they should be able to define every aspect of each of there individual sheps in game or it's railroading or whatever, but that's not always how RPGs work. Sometime you gotta use your imagination and just kinda go with the flow.

it could have been executed better and the kid from my point of view was not necessary. The dreams could been more about Shepard thinking about the choices he made during ME3, instead of running to someones kid.

Shepard doesn't show much interest in Earth until ME3 and to honest how many people care about Earth in ME unless you are born or have family on it?

Humans future are in space, not on some dirt ball in a single system.

[crimzontearz]

I don't believe this statement to be accurate.

FIrst there is the obvious observation that ME1 was the first game in the series, therefore it's easy to understand why it would be closer to the lore.

The important thing though is that when someone say "rule of cool", I understand it as sacrificing the universe integrity just so something can look cooler. And most of the time that is not the case with ME2 and ME3 (although I focus mostly on ME2). Someome talked about how biotics got "crazier" in the sequels, but it was to make the game look cooler? No, it's to improve gameplay, and it succeed tremendously. Squadmates clothes, which is also an issue. That choice was made to give Shepard's companions an identity of their own, which I also worked. Although I admit sometimes they looked silly.

But yes, sometimes decisions are made that prioritizes how something look. Like the Battle of the Citadel in ME1. It's very different from what we came to expect from the Codex, because obviously that would have looked boring.

uh
....

ok, let's see....SHOCKWAVE? biotic lifting projectiles (with homing properties)? Health siphoning Reave? Oh come on....some of these are just rule of goddamn cool distilled and they did not have to be...Hell SLAM is one of the visually coolest and does not break the lire and so is Charge (to a point)

also, giving identity ≠ going against lore

In ME3 people have their distinct look but wear proper goddamn armir and they do not just survive half naked on a corrosive planet atmosphere because coolness demands so.

[SNascimento]

ok, let's see....SHOCKWAVE? biotic lifting projectiles (with homing properties)? Health siphoning Reave? Oh come on....some of these are just rule of goddamn cool distilled and they did not have to be...Hell SLAM is one of the visually coolest and does not break the lire and so is Charge (to a point)

also, giving identity ≠ going against lore

In ME3 people have their distinct look but wear proper goddamn armir and they do not just survive half naked on a corrosive planet atmosphere because coolness demands so.

Both powers are there because gameplay. You want new powers with different effects, that all there is to it. It's no different then many other RPGs with magical attacks. You can actually see many parallels between biotic powers in ME and classic magic spells.

And yes, as I said, ME2 costumes may look silly in certain places. But I really doubt "looking cool" was the cause of that. Do you think Jack looks cool wearing that on an hostile environment? I don't. And I'd say most people won't care about that, and those who do, won't find it cool. 

[TTTX]

@ TTTX

 

That's...not really the way PTSD works. Anything can become a trigger, even if the patient has suffered previous events that should be much worse.

 

No, the trouble is they didn't give the player a reason to care about the kid. The emotional manipulation is way too hamfisted.

True, I just can't see Shepard get PTSD like and I know she/he is human, but it was executed badly.

 

It doesn't help that catalyst looks like the kid which kinda implies the Reapers are in Shepard's head.

 

 

Having nightmares doesn't make you any less tough or any less able to go down swinging as we can see, shep fights till the very end dreams or no dreams. Also depending on your playthrough and background, Shep has only actually watched a few friends die and that we know of and that is mostly depending on how you did in the suicide mission. He doesn't actually see ash/Kaiden die on virmire nor mordin on Tachunka only people I recall to fersure die in front of shep is Jenkins and victus or the sole survivor background, and I seriously don't see them being any better of an emotional pull then the kid.

It would make more sense for Shepard to see the prothean vision again then have some dream about some kid, I don't care how much a symbol the kid is it simple feels wrong.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Hey, I'm all for the Rule of Cool. S*** has to be cool. But then there is the Rule of the Absurd where it just crosses the line like with the armor and running around half naked in space or in a corrosive atmosphere. Even Tarantino couldn't get away with that.

[Iamjdr]

it could have been executed better and the kid from my point of view was not necessary. The dreams could been more about Shepard thinking about the choices he made during ME3, instead of running to someones kid.
Shepard doesn't show much interest in Earth until ME3 and to honest how many people care about Earth in ME unless you are born or have family on it?
Humans future are in space, not on some dirt ball in a single system.

But shep is the first human spectre and a n7 soldier who I'm guessing trained on earth as that's where all n7's train. I would say it would be pretty important to him.

Edit- I mean I've never even been to Australia or Ireland but I'd be pretty upset if some space squids started dropping out of the sky and vaporizing and space zombifying everyone who lives there.

[crimzontearz]

Both powers are there because gameplay. You want new powers with different effects, that all there is to it. It's no different then many other RPGs with magical attacks. You can actually see many parallels between biotic powers in ME and classic magic spells.

And yes, as I said, ME2 costumes may look silly in certain places. But I really doubt "looking cool" was the cause of that. Do you think Jack looks cool wearing that on an hostile environment? I don't. And I'd say most people won't care about that, and those who do, won't find it cool.

and there it is, the fact you associate Magic (which in most cases makes rules as it goes along) to Biotics (which were supposed to be a verisimile result of the "one big lie") means that they slid lower on the moh's scale than before. I do not care why, they did...lord knows there are A LOT of other things one can do with gravity/mass manipulation that do not involve soul stealing.

Also, yes, Jack looked the way she did because "cool" same for Miranda, now ask me if she could not have been given PROPER armor for appropriate missions while keeping his "unique cool look" in others

[TTTX]

But shep is the first human spectre and a n7 soldier who I'm guessing trained on earth as that's where all n7's train I would say it would be pretty important to him.

I don't see how the first specter plays into the whole needs to feel something to earth other then s/he has fans there, but since s/he doesn't know them they don't mean much to Shepard and as for it being his/her old training ground well I can see him/her being a bit sad about it, but I don't see him/her being all heart broken about it.

 

I still don't see why Shepard being all broken about Earth unless s/he is Earth born, but even then it sounds like doesn't have many fun memories of Earth.

[SNascimento]

and there it is, the fact you associate Magic (which in most cases makes rules as it goes along) to Biotics (which were supposed to be a verisimile result of the "one big lie") means that they slid lower on the moh's scale than before. I do not care why, they did...lord knows there are A LOT of other things one can do with gravity/mass manipulation that do not involve soul stealing.

Also, yes, Jack looked the way she did because "cool" same for Miranda, now ask me if she could not have been given PROPER armor for appropriate missions while keeping his "unique cool look" in others

Well, I associated biotics with magic ever since I first played ME1 because that's exactly what they are. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one. And make no mistake, the reason why Mass Effect has biotics is purely because of gameplay. Just imagine how much lesser the combat would be if you strip it away.

And why they didn't give some character proper armors when they clearly need? Probably because it take time and resources to do so. Surely they could just put Jack on a common armor for example, but that's exactly what they didn't want. 

[Iamjdr]

I don't see how the first specter plays into the whole needs to feel something to earth other then s/he has fans there, but since s/he doesn't know them they don't mean much to Shepard and as for it being his/her old training ground well I can see him/her being a bit sad about it, but I don't see him/her being all heart broken about it.

I still don't see why Shepard being all broken about Earth unless s/he is Earth born, but even then it sounds like doesn't have many fun memories of Earth.

I don't see how shep wouldn't be affected by his entire race potentially going extinct. I don't really think it matters where he lives. Why would any shep not care about the fate of earth when it has billions innocent people dying?
It's not like shep could be a batarian or anti human in game. I mean would you really not care what happened to earth just cause you were born on a spaceship?

[AlanC9]

Biotics were a great example of this. In ME1 it was just moving stuff around, 

 

Unless the biotic in question was an asari. Their biotics can do funky mind-affecting stuff in ME1 too.

[AlanC9]

I don't see how shep wouldn't be affected by his entire race potentially going extinct. I don't really think it matters where he lives. Why would any shep not care about the fate of earth when it has billions innocent people dying?
It's not like shep could be a batarian or anti human in game. I mean would you really not care what happened to earth just cause you were born on a spaceship?

 

Right. Well over 95% of all humans still live on Earth. Someone said it's over 99%; haven't done the math myself.

 

I sure hope that a Hawaiian soldier would be a bit broken up if aliens overran the continental US and started slaughtering its population, even if Hawaii itself hadn't been hit yet.

[naddaya]

I don't see how shep wouldn't be affected by his entire races potentially going extinct. I don't really think it matters where he lives. Why would any shep not care about the fate of earth when it has billions innocent people dying?

Because the whole galaxy is at stake. How is earth more important than palaven or thessia? Spectres are supposed to act for the galaxy's good. It was especially hypoctritic when shepard said aiding palaven was a tall order while he had been whining about earth all along. Spectres are sworn to protect the whole known galaxy. Some sheps might care for earth. Others might not. It's not their duty and it shouldn't be forced.

[AlexMBrennan]

Just imagine how much lesser the combat would be if you strip it away.

There'd be no change since all biotics do is strip anti-biotic defences. The potential for interesting combos was sacrificed for "biotic explosions"

[Village_Idiot]

Unless the biotic in question was an asari. Their biotics can do funky mind-affecting stuff in ME1 too.

 

This is actually meant to be a neural ability that requires physical contact, rather than a biotic one. Admittedly though, it's a bit of a grey area.

[crimzontearz]

Well, I associated biotics with magic ever since I first played ME1 because that's exactly what they are. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one. And make no mistake, the reason why Mass Effect has biotics is purely because of gameplay. Just imagine how much lesser the combat would be if you strip it away.

And why they didn't give some character proper armors when they clearly need? Probably because it take time and resources to do so. Surely they could just put Jack on a common armor for example, but that's exactly what they didn't want.

the fact the "act" like magic on the surface and whether they follow the modus pensandi behind magic are two entirely different things. In ME1 there was an explanation stemming off the "one big lie" which was verisimile, that is lacking in ME2&3 where explanations are "because biotic fuekss which makes them de facto lower on the moh's scale because they could not think to lore fitting effects that improved game play (like with thermal clips)

the fact they chose to keep lore breaking appearances remains poor design and storytelling TYVM