454 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

Not all sheps were even spectre at the beginning of mass effect 3 honestly and even still every shep is an n7 operator first and formost, it's the only thing that is true for everysingle shep in every single game in the trilogy. And every other race has their own spectres so why shep should be worrying about other peoples planet more than the humans still doesn't make sense. Shep also say it's a tall order and STILL makes it happen! Shep is helping everyone so they will help him. Yes he does say a few things that arnt the brightest but his actions are louder then his words.

[naddaya]

Not all sheps were even spectre at the beginning of mass effect 3 honestly and even still every shep is an n7 operator first and formost, it's the only thing that is true for everysingle shep in every single game in the trilogy. And every other race has their own spectres so why shep should be worrying about other peoples planet more than the humans still doesn't make sense. Shep also say it's a tall order and STILL makes it happen! Shep is helping everyone so they will help him. Yes he does say a few things that arnt the brightest but his actions are louder then his words.

Not more. Equally. It should be a choice anyway. I'm alright with people putting earth above everything else, I just want to have the chance not to.

[Iamjdr]

Not more. Equally. It should be a choice anyway. I'm alright with people putting earth above everything else, I just want to have the chance not to.

None of the council seem to share your sentiment, they all refuse to help earth to buy time to shore up their own boarders, if shep doesn't care about earth then who will? And what do you gain from being able to not care about earth?

-Edit
And not only that but since we are talking about it, the turian councilor asks you to help find the primarch of palavin right after refusing to help earth. At least shep said it would be hard to get krogan aid for the turians and then assisted instead of just flat out saying no and then saying well if you do this for us we might help..

-Double edit
Now that I think of it, shep isn't saying it would be hard to get help for the turians because he/she doesn't want to. It's because there is already so much animosity between the two species, which has been there since the krogan rebellions ended with the genophage. So from sheps perspective, that would definitely be a tall order.

[naddaya]

None of the council seem to share your sentiment, they all refuse to help earth to buy time to shore up their own boarders, if shep doesn't care about earth then who will? And what do you gain from being able to not care about earth?

Edit-
And not only that but since we are talking about it, the turian councilor asks you to help find the primarch of palavin right after refusing to help earth. At least shep said it would be hard to get krogan aid for the turians and then assistedinstead of just flat out saying no and then saying well if you do this for us we might help

The councilors are short sighted jackasses, that doesnt mean shepard should be the same. Again, I see why shepard could care about earth. But there's a lot at stake. All organic life. Defeating the reapers should be the prority, no matter what species leads the defense. Shepard might deem himself a spectre before a human. I remember having the option to say so in me1.

EDIT: Shepard said it when the councilor asked him to rescue the primarch, if I recall correctly.

[Iamjdr]

The councilors are short sighted jackasses, that doesnt mean shepard should be the same. Again, I see why shepard could care about earth. But there's a lot at stake. All organic life. Defeating the reapers should be the prority, no matter what species leads the defense. Shepard might deem himself a spectre before a human. I remember having the option to say so in me1.

EDIT: Shepard said it when the councilor asked him to rescue the primarch, if I recall correctly.

But I was always under the impression defeating the reapers is the main priority, isn't it? How else are you planning on getting earth back? Yes shep talk a lot about wanted to take earth back, but shep also acknowledges that the only way to get earth back is getting the galaxy together and taking out the reapers.

Edit- he also fights on every single council species homeworld before a single one of them sets foot on earth. He helps all the races before anyone does really anything to aide earth, so I don't see how being able to not care about earth in game even matters, you are on the planet for 2 missions and the rest of the game is spent fixing everyone else's problems before they will lend their aid to earth.

[Iakus]

Well, I associated biotics with magic ever since I first played ME1 because that's exactly what they are. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one. And make no mistake, the reason why Mass Effect has biotics is purely because of gameplay. Just imagine how much lesser the combat would be if you strip it away.

 

Just because it's magic doesn't mean it shouldn't follow rules.  The best magic systems follow their own internally consistent laws.  Magic A is Magic A

 

If kinetic barriers aren't supposed to work on energy, then the vorcha with a flamethrower should be a serious threat.

 

Similarly, you shouldn't be able to tear through a plasma barrier with your bare hands.

 

 

And why they didn't give some character proper armors when they clearly need? Probably because it take time and resources to do so. Surely they could just put Jack on a common armor for example, but that's exactly what they didn't want.

Wait, giving Jack armor would have cost more resources than covering her shirtless body with tatoos?  

[crimzontearz]

Just because it's magic doesn't mean it shouldn't follow rules. The best magic systems follow their own internally consistent laws. Magic A is Magic A

If kinetic barriers aren't supposed to work on energy, then the vorcha with a flamethrower should be a serious threat.

Similarly, you shouldn't be able to tear through a plasma barrier with your bare hands.

Wait, giving Jack armor would have cost more resources than covering her shirtless body with tatoos?

it would have costed too much cool factor

[naddaya]

But I was always under the impression defeating the reapers is the main priority, isn't it? How else are you planning on getting earth back? Yes shep talk a lot about wanted to take earth back, but shep also acknowledges that the only way to get earth back is getting the galaxy together and taking out the reapers.

Edit- he also fights on every single council species homeworld before a single one of them sets foot on earth. He helps all the races before anyone does really anything to aide earth, so I don't see how being able to not care about earth in game even matters, you are on the planet for 2 missions and the rest of the game is spent fixing everyone else's problems before they will lend their aid to earth.

 

"Getting earth back" that's the issue. I would focus more on "uniting all of our forces against a common enemy". It's a menace for all species, this calls for an alliance. I would protect earth if possible, along with every other significant planet. You care about it more, fine. But me and several other players who love to moan about it in the forums here were annoyed by the focus on earth, since it was hardly mentioned before and my Shepard had no reason to deem it more important than the rest. I wasn't broken up over its loss, it was forced emotion, as with the child. And I use the term "my" loosely. Bioware has made it very clear they own the character, while we can meld it a bit. In the previous games, I established a tough character, colonist and ruthless who only considered the alliance a vehicle to her talent and curiosity about the universe, she understood the aliens suspicion of humanity and was set on eliminating the reaper threat for everyone. Hearing her talk about Earth so many times with such eagerness to "reclaim it" in ME3 broke her character a bit. As the pseudo-religious autodialogue did. There was very little of it, and not very significant, yet it was out of character. I remember my Shepard telling Ashley she was agnostic, with bitterness even. A bit of choice in these matters would have been easy to implement, considering they gave us the chance to do so in the previous games.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well, I associated biotics with magic ever since I first played ME1 because that's exactly what they are. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one. And make no mistake, the reason why Mass Effect has biotics is purely because of gameplay. Just imagine how much lesser the combat would be if you strip it away.

And why they didn't give some character proper armors when they clearly need? Probably because it take time and resources to do so. Surely they could just put Jack on a common armor for example, but that's exactly what they didn't want. 

 

Biotics are magic but they are also a large story component. Much of Jack's and Kaidan's life's were affect by their biotic capabilities, there's active discrimination based on people with biotic abilities, etc.

 

The problem with not having characters wearing armor is an immersion issue. It looks a little silly to walk into enemy territory, especially one with a hostile environment, wearing nothing but straps and latex.

[CronoDragoon]

The problem with not having characters wearing armor is an immersion issue. It looks a little silly to walk into enemy territory, especially one with a hostile environment, wearing nothing but straps and latex.

 

That's not exactly the norm within the universe, though. Surely that speaks to Jack's character more than anything?

[Iamjdr]

"Getting earth back" that's the issue. You care about it, fine. But me and several other players who love to moan about it in the forums here were annoyed by the focus on earth, since it was hardly mentioned before and my Shepard had no reason to deem it more important than the rest. I wasn't broken up over its loss, it was forced emotion, as with the child. And I use the term "my" loosely. Bioware has made it very clear they own the character, while we can meld it a bit. In the previous games, I established a tough character, colonist and ruthless who only considered the alliance a vehicle to her talent and curiosity about the universe, she understood the aliens suspicion of humanity and was set on eliminating the reaper threat for everyone. Hearing her talk about Earth so many times with such eagerness to "reclaim it" in ME3 broke her character a bit. As the pseudo-religious autodialogue did. There was very little of it, and not very significant, yet it was out of character. I remember my Shepard telling Ashley she was agnostic, with bitterness even. A bit of choice in these matters would have been easy to implement, considering they gave us the chance to do so in the previous games.

I'm kinda curious as to what your truly asking for here. Do you just want to be able to respond to everyone who says they are srry about earth with an " ehh @&ck em, I was a colonist" or " who cares about humans dying? Blue women are in peril!!We have to save the asari now!!!gogogo!" ... Obviously these are exaggerated but really I just wanna know what you think being able to denounce earth would add to the narrative?
Not only that say you could say that you don't care about earth in game but where would you have shep focus instead? Everything you said about alliances for a common enemy happens in game so I'm still missing something here. And the humans are the ones building the crucible, and no one else helps until you help them first so again what does not caring about earth change? Okay say we just let earth burn, now what is your plan, where are you sending the fleets to die? Gonna watch each planet fall one by one without the crucible being built anyways..And I'm not quite sure what you mean by pseudo religious auto diolouge?

[naddaya]

I'm kinda curious as to what your truly asking for here. Do you just want to be able to respond to everyone who says they are srry about earth with an " ehh @&ck em, I was a colonist" or " who cares about humans dying? Blue women are in peril!!We have to save the asari now!!!gogogo!" ... Obviously these are exaggerated but really I just wanna know what you think being able to denounce earth would add to the narrative? Not only that say you could say that you don't care about earth in game but where would you have shep focus instead? And I'm not quite sure what you mean by pseudo religious auto diolouge?

 

I want Shepard to stop whining about Earth and start rallying a common defense. It's just a bunch of dialogue, it doesn't have any effects on the plot. Everyone is dying. Not only humans. Everyone. The focus should be on an interspecies alliance to fight the damn reapers. Which is what's happening, really. But Shepard only talks about Earth.

 

I don't remember the exact phrase, it was "he's in a better place now and is looking down on us", paraphrased. About Mordin I think. All nice and cool, except that my character told Ashley she didn't really believe in an afterlife two games before. They railroaded many things.

 

But all of this has nothing to do with Reaper Tech. The thread has been invaded. Oh well.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm kinda curious as to what your truly asking for here.

 

I just think they are asking for Shepard to look at the war strategically and consider what to use the troops on that he's gathered. If you consider the galaxy as one united force, and consider where to best deploy the copious support Shepard has garnered, then Earth seems like the least useful place to mount an attack. The Reapers are most heavily concentrated in Sol, meanwhile Palaven is holding steady with krogan ground troops...why not deploy reinforcements there to win back the turian homeworld? Is it wise to hit the Reapers where their resistance would be heaviest?

 

These concerns evaporate once the Citadel is moved to Earth and you know the Crucible needs to dock with it: clearly at THAT point winning a single battle at Earth wins the war, so it's the smart thing to do. But there's a strange period of time in between the beginning of the game and that moment when Shepard is talking about pouring all their resources into the Crucible...AND getting forces to take back Earth. It's a bit schizophrenic and doesn't quite gel as a cohesive overall plan.

 

For example, let's say the plan was to build the Crucible and (before knowing you could coordinate the relay network with it) deploy it locally as a super-nuclear space bomb, wiping out Reapers in the immediate atmosphere. Wouldn't it still make sense to concentrate first where the Reapers are weakest and win those systems back, forcing the Reapers to disperse a bit from Sol to send reinforcements?

 

Anyway, I don't blame Shepard for wanting those troops for Earth - at worst it's equally selfish to how everyone else in the galaxy is acting - but this is the sort of thinking someone who is Spectre first, alliance second might employ.

[ImaginaryMatter]

That's not exactly the norm within the universe, though. Surely that speaks to Jack's character more than anything?

 

I always thought there could have been a clever way to shove Jack into armor and still maintain her character (although in my series of drawing ME2 characters armor Jack is certainly the most difficult). Like maybe have a scene where she starts grumbling about how stifling or restrictive it is and then Shepard warns her of the dangers of vacuum exposure; or a scene where Shepard asks her why she's wearing the restrictive armor and Jack calls Shepard a ****** and explains how stupid it is to wear nothing but straps into a hostile environment.

[Iamjdr]

Oh, I think remember the mordin thing but wasn't that through a paragon dialogue choice? I don't think it is regular auto dialogue in either case cause none of my sheps have said it in any of my recent playthroughs. So you basically don't want shep to say anything about earth the whole game? Be kinda weird don't you think what with that being where shep was when the invasion began.

[ImaginaryMatter]

as an example

ME1 sticks relatively closer to the lore, everyone wears armor in battle and so on....

rule of cool started taking over from ME2 on

 

That's what I meant. The Mass Effect itself could never exist with our physical laws, so I always compared the technologies in the game to magic (not that magic is bad). We are told rules, like for example running a current allows for a field that decreases or increases the mass of everything within the field. As long as the rules are adhered to everything is fine. Adhering to the rules though doesn't necessarily have to be strict though and bending the rules a little is fine (appropriate bending being very subjective) as long as it's done for the greater good. Like, for example, Biotics seem a little iffy on how exactly they work but they add an entire dimension to combat and allow the story to deal with issues like transhumanism and prejudice.

 

And as you said ME2 is really where the stuff starts to get bent too far. Like despite how different the ME universe is to ours nothing was ever introduced in the first game that could suggest recovery from death was possible, yet the game starts with that. It might have been tolerable if the game world allowed Shepard to have some personal development from it, however, it seems it was put into the game so there could be a time skip and Shepard could be railroaded into working for Cerberus which is basically a completely different group than what it was in the first game.

 

I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you, just clarifying my views a little.

[Invisible Man]

I think it's more about shepard going... look, I need your fleets, your troops and your scientists to save earth, but I don't really have a plan, I can give you no strategic reasoning to explain why you should go to earth, and our full frontal assault will most likely fail, oh, and I'm just noticing you planet is burning, or about to burn, but we still need to save earth.

[naddaya]

Oh, I think remember the mordin thing but wasn't that through a paragon dialogue choice? I don't think it is regular auto dialogue in either case cause none of my sheps have said it in any of my recent playthroughs. So you basically don't want shep to say anything about earth the whole game? Be kinda weird don't you think what with that being where shep was when the invasion began.

 

How does it matter? Shepard needs to leave. Earth has been attacked. There have been many losses. You can feel sorry for the people who died. But what does "taking Earth back" accomplish on its own? Shepard hardly ever says the plan is to defeat the Reapers. She always says "Earth is lost" "We must get help for Earth" and looks teary every time Earth is mentioned. There's no changing what happened, and many planets still stand. Until the crucible is built, the best plan would be to build an army as far from the conquered zones as possible.

 

Yep, it was a paragon response. However, the phrase was "I will miss him" (or something similar. I remember it was an answer implying you cared for him. Which I did). It's different from "He's in a better place and watching over us now", which is pretty much the last thing an atheist/agnostic folk would say when someone they care about is dead.

 

I just think they are asking for Shepard to look at the war strategically and consider what to use the troops on that he's gathered. If you consider the galaxy as one united force, and consider where to best deploy the copious support Shepard has garnered, then Earth seems like the least useful place to mount an attack. The Reapers are most heavily concentrated in Sol, meanwhile Palaven is holding steady with krogan ground troops...why not deploy reinforcements there to win back the turian homeworld? Is it wise to hit the Reapers where their resistance would be heaviest?

 

These concerns evaporate once the Citadel is moved to Earth and you know the Crucible needs to dock with it: clearly at THAT point winning a single battle at Earth wins the war, so it's the smart thing to do. But there's a strange period of time in between the beginning of the game and that moment when Shepard is talking about pouring all their resources into the Crucible...AND getting forces to take back Earth. It's a bit schizophrenic and doesn't quite gel as a cohesive overall plan.

 

For example, let's say the plan was to build the Crucible and (before knowing you could coordinate the relay network with it) deploy it locally as a super-nuclear space bomb, wiping out Reapers in the immediate atmosphere. Wouldn't it still make sense to concentrate first where the Reapers are weakest and win those systems back, forcing the Reapers to disperse a bit from Sol to send reinforcements?

 

Anyway, I don't blame Shepard for wanting those troops for Earth - at worst it's equally selfish to how everyone else in the galaxy is acting - but this is the sort of thinking someone who is Spectre first, alliance second might employ.

 

Someone who gets it

I'm alright with Shepard mentioning Earth and caring about Earth and humanity in general. But I'd like to have the choice of focusing on the threat and building an alliance as well. Everyone else seems to be already out for their own species, the one leading the defense should make it clear no one could make it on its own. "Help me take back Earth" doesn't cut it. Explaining a reasonable war plan would have been nice. It doesn't show that you don't care about Earth, it shows that you care about everybody else as well. All organic species were targeted.

[Iamjdr]

Someone who gets it
I'm alright with Shepard mentioning Earth and caring about Earth and humanity in general. But I'd like to have the choice of focusing on the threat and building an alliance as well. Everyone else seems to be already out for their own species, the one leading the defense should make it clear no one could make it on its own. "Help me take back Earth" doesn't cut it. Explaining a reasonable war plan would have been nice. It doesn't show that you don't care about Earth, it shows that you care about everybody else as well. All organic species were targeted.

All organics were targeted yes, but at the beginning of the game only earth the batarian home world and the turians were actually hit by the reapers. And earth was lost unlike palavin thessia and surkesh so they are the only ones actively looking for a way to beat the reapers because the races are just looking to defend there homeworlds. So if shep and the council are not looking to help earth then why would the alliance care about the rest of the races? besides the batarians they are in the deepest and no one wants to help them, but everyone wants them to help with there problems? I get you just want more options to define your character I just don't see how that would really fit with the story we are given and it's such a small thing In the end I don't really see why it's even important to begin with.

[crimzontearz]

That's what I meant. The Mass Effect itself could never exist with our physical laws, so I always compared the technologies in the game to magic (not that magic is bad). We are told rules, like for example running a current allows for a field that decreases or increases the mass of everything within the field. As long as the rules are adhered to everything is fine. Adhering to the rules though doesn't necessarily have to be strict though and bending the rules a little is fine (appropriate bending being very subjective) as long as it's done for the greater good. Like, for example, Biotics seem a little iffy on how exactly they work but they add an entire dimension to combat and allow the story to deal with issues like transhumanism and prejudice.

And as you said ME2 is really where the stuff starts to get bent too far. Like despite how different the ME universe is to ours nothing was ever introduced in the first game that could suggest recovery from death was possible, yet the game starts with that. It might have been tolerable if the game world allowed Shepard to have some personal development from it, however, it seems it was put into the game so there could be a time skip and Shepard could be railroaded into working for Cerberus which is basically a completely different group than what it was in the first game.

I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you, just clarifying my views a little.

right, Biotics do not lower the Moh's scale in ME1 because they are a reasonable off shot of the "one big lie" and all the game play, the looks and so on revolves around it AS IT SHOULD....but in ME2 they are not anymore so it slips lower on the scale.

[ImaginaryMatter]

right, Biotics do not lower the Moh's scale in ME1 because they are a reasonable off shot of the "one big lie" and all the game play, the looks and so on revolves around it AS IT SHOULD....but in ME2 they are not anymore so it slips lower on the scale.

 

I thought the mohs scale was determined by scientific accuracy. The way physics works in Mass Effect ranging from the mass effect itself, to element zero, to the constant speed of light, to absence of Relativity in my opinion makes the entire series soft science fiction. Which makes the issue with adhering to the lore one of internal consistency.

[SNascimento]

I believe people put lore and "reason" too much on a pedestal. Ok, let's assume ME2 choices hurt ME lore and its inner logic, but one must ask, what was the trade off? And it's clear. ME2 with mechanics like thermal clips and new biotics powers offered a much greater gameplay experience. ME1 gameplay was at it's best mediocre, ME2 and ME3 were amazing. So you gave 1 and received 10 in return, a worth bargain without a doubt.
 

Unless of course, all you care about is narrative and can forget the Mass Effect trilogy is in the end, games. I can respect that, but that's a very narrow view. Liking only one aspect of the game is not a good place to be.  

[crimzontearz]

I thought the mohs scale was determined by scientific accuracy. The way physics works in Mass Effect ranging from the mass effect itself, to element zero, to the constant speed of light, to absence of Relativity in my opinion makes the entire series soft science fiction. Which makes the issue with adhering to the lore one of internal consistency.

http://tvtropes.org/...FictionHardness

not exactly...

[crimzontearz]

I believe people put lore and "reason" too much on a pedestal. Ok, let's assume ME2 choices hurt ME lore and its inner logic, but one must ask, what was the trade off? And it's clear. ME2 with mechanics like thermal clips and new biotics powers offered a much greater gameplay experience. ME1 gameplay was at it's best mediocre, ME2 and ME3 were amazing. So you gave 1 and received 10 in return, a worth bargain without a doubt.

Unless of course, all you care about is narrative and can forget the Mass Effect trilogy is in the end, games. I can respect that, but that's a very narrow view. Liking only one aspect of the game is not a good place to be.

you obviously have never played a game with an active cool down mechanic....which would have suited the devs need to add "tension" without crapping on the lore.

poor design it is

[ImaginaryMatter]

I believe people put lore and "reason" too much on a pedestal. Ok, let's assume ME2 choices hurt ME lore and its inner logic, but one must ask, what was the trade off? And it's clear. ME2 with mechanics like thermal clips and new biotics powers offered a much greater gameplay experience. ME1 gameplay was at it's best mediocre, ME2 and ME3 were amazing. So you gave 1 and received 10 in return, a worth bargain without a doubt.
 

Unless of course, all you care about is narrative and can forget the Mass Effect trilogy is in the end, games. I can respect that, but that's a very narrow view. Liking only one aspect of the game is not a good place to be.  

 

I never argue about the issues relating to game play. Personally, I would have liked to have seen a modification of the heat system in guns but I like thermal clips better than what they had in ME1; similar to Biotics being hampered by protection. The changes made the gameplay more dynamic.

 

It's the story aspects that get to me. The Lazarus project was a huge step, especially considering nothing came of it, everybody in the game world acts oddly or completely ignores the implications of the project and Shepard's resurrection; not to mention the biological issues that go into bringing someone back from vacuum exposure and atmospheric reentry. Rebooting Cerberus is another thing. Working for them without being able to bring up all the stuff they pulled in ME1 is another. It makes the story less enjoyable if implausible or huge stretches are made to the narrative.