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[Shadow Fox]

If you want to end the discussion, fine, but just so you know, I don't think this will get too heated between us. You seem OK.

 

If you're afraid of moderation, fair enough. Just let me say that you make a good point.. but it's a relatively recent thing to take hold.. solving problems like that. And it's also rooted in deep spiritual principles. A lot of principles of Civil Rights goes back to Gandhi, who turned was influenced by Tolstoy's books on nonviolence (who turn borrowed a lot from Jesus in the Gospels). My point being that it takes almost a religious devotion.. a level of saintliness even.. to embrace it fully and pull off what Gandhi or MLK did. And that's why I said it was "abnormal". While the ugliness I pointed out earlier is mostly the norm in the world. As much as I admire it, I certainly don't think it's easy for me at least. I'm just being honest. I know what my raw emotions are about some things.

It's about moderation and fear of pissing someone else off as political discussions always do.

 

Fair enough but I don't consider letting people you know are innocent suffer for centuries because of crimes avenged long ago an emotional reaction any more just pure sadism.

[Cobra's_back]

You're risking the dalish army by assuming he will be rational. That's a big risk and one you can take. In this quests case I don't think it should work out.

 

There are a few paragon decisions that I believe should work out. I think saving the Circle should work as well as destroying the anvil. It makes sense that Caradin could make a paragon crown since he is a paragon despite being a golem.

 

I don't think the dalish paragon route should've worked nor the Connor one. Considering all the slaughter at possessed Connor's hands I cannot imagine he'd be docile for several days after you leave. When you come back it should result in someone else dying; either him, Isolde, or others. Maybe the town got attacked again.

 

Hi Congokong,

 

The kid told me I wiped out his army. I seriously take this as he can't make another army without more people. You left the blood mage and several Knights and you killed all the zombies. It is impossible for them to hold out. 

 

As for the Dalish, Zathrian gets his redemption. The werewolves are not the same people who killed his daughter. He committed a crime against his own people and the humans. He created a bio-weapon and was responsible for the actions of the werewolves because they asked for a cure and he would not lift it. I always convince him to lift it. If I couldn't then I would get his people to put pressure on him or they die. Two wrongs don't make a right. In the end you get the werewolves if he wouldn't lift it or the elves if he does.

 

Your comment: "It's the Grey Wardens' job to unite the lands and stop the blights by any means necessary. Doing a little dirty work for Bhelen and Zathrian doesn't seem out of character from that perspective."

 

I see what you mean. I just like doing things my way. I'm not necessarily going to use Bhelen, Zathrian or Branka to get what I want. There is never just one way to do things. I do understand that you picked the other way. It is a good thing when the game gives you multiple choices. In life there is never just one way as well.

[congokong]

If you want to end the discussion, fine, but just so you know, I don't think this will get too heated between us. You seem OK.

 

If you're afraid of moderation, fair enough. Just let me say that you make a good point.. but it's a relatively recent thing to take hold.. solving problems like that. And it's also rooted in deep spiritual principles. A lot of principles of Civil Rights goes back to Gandhi, who turned was influenced by Tolstoy's books on nonviolence (who turn borrowed a lot from Jesus in the Gospels). My point being that it takes almost a religious devotion.. a level of saintliness even.. to embrace it fully and pull off what Gandhi or MLK did. And that's why I said it was "abnormal". While the ugliness I pointed out earlier is mostly the norm in the world. As much as I admire it, I certainly don't think it's easy for me at least. I'm just being honest. I know what my raw emotions are about some things.

*speaks in a wise voice*  True wisdom begins by understanding who you are before understanding others.

 

lol

 

At least you're honest.

[congokong]

Hi Congokong,

 

The kid told me I wiped out his army. I seriously take this as he can't make another army without more people. You left the blood mage and several Knights and you killed all the zombies. It is impossible for them to hold out. 

 

As for the Dalish, Zathrian gets his redemption. The werewolves are not the same people who killed his daughter. He committed a crime against his own people and the humans. He created a bio-weapon and was responsible for the actions of the werewolves because they asked for a cure and he would not lift it. I always convince him to lift it. If I couldn't then I would get his people to put pressure on him or they die. Two wrongs don't make a right. In the end you get the werewolves if he wouldn't lift it or the elves if he does.

 

Your comment: "It's the Grey Wardens' job to unite the lands and stop the blights by any means necessary. Doing a little dirty work for Bhelen and Zathrian doesn't seem out of character from that perspective."

 

I see what you mean. I just like doing things my way. I'm not necessarily going to use Bhelen, Zathrian or Branka to get what I want. There is never just one way to do things. I do understand that you picked the other way. It is a good thing when the game gives you multiple choices. In life there is never just one way as well.

 

Hello GhostBusters101.

 

It's hard to debate things like Dragon Age at times because how much can we assume? You bring up a good point about Connor's undead army being destroyed. Can he make another? How long does he need? Where did he get the first undead army from? Can he use things other than undead like maybe rage demons? Since this is fiction we have to assume a lot for a discussion at times.

 

All I can assume is that the kid is still a major threat and I'd have a really bad feeling leaving the castle with the situation unresolved for days. Also, darkspawn are plaguing the realm eating people or whatever they do while I'm busy going through all this trouble for a kid who has no impact on the war besides doing a favor for the family of an old man in a coma.

 

I completely sympathize with wanting to play your character different ways. Just because the Grey Warden philosophy would sanction things like helping Zathrian or Bhelen doesn't mean your warden has to. Your warden may hate being a Grey Warden and is only doing it because no one else can. I, and many others, are simply saying that the idealistic choices you can make should sometimes not pay off. This feeling stems from Bioware's other series, Mass Effect, that had the same problem. In Zathrian and Connor's case I believe trying to save everyone should cause you to lose more than choosing the practical path despite having good intentions.

[Shadow Fox]

Sadism even to admit to the feelings, and entertain the notion? You're tough. Like a nun, who will slap my wrists just for bad thoughts.

 

I'll have you know that I haven't actualized any of this. YET. Perhaps one day I'll bring down a generational "reckoning" like Zathrian does. Now if I only knew how.... 

I think of it like this:

 

Invoking the curse: Pure emotional reaction

 

Keeping it going after the murderous rapists are dead and ignoring pleas to end it until a sympathetic ghoul strong arms you into it: Pure Sadism

 

As you can guess I'm not Zathrian's biggest fan.

[congokong]

Just to bury myself further, I can almost sympathize with Connor too. He's just tired of being held back. He's no different than a King Cousland, who wants to take the throne.

 

"I crave excitement. And action!"

 

Sorcery! StreetMagic, you're starting to turn into a troll right before my eyes. lol

[Cobra's_back]

I don't think this has to come down to the PC's lack of information either. Like I said, I look at it from the perspective of siding with Zathrian because you sympathize with him. All it takes is for me to step in his shoes for one second, instead of living out some fantasy of a 12 year old's Sunday School values about forgiveness. If I just immerse myself in his world for a second, then it clicks. I guess that makes me a bad person. lol

 

Your comment:  living out some fantasy of a 12 year old's Sunday School values about forgiveness

 

 

Wow! 

 

It is not about Sunday School. It is about how a society wants to be treated. Zathrian by our laws committed a crime. The people he punished didn't commit the crime therefore he is in the wrong. He doesn't get a pass. He has two choices: Remove the curse die a hero to his people or die not removing the curse and watch his people turn into werewolves. I wouldn't bring emotions or religion to the party. 

 

I don't see how Sunday School has any meaning here. All societies have laws so that people can live together without chaos. There are also rules of engagement with foreigners. Zat's approach would start another war. If he was a sensible leader then punish only the guilty and let the others go. Try to setup rules for trade and communications with other communities. 

 

Just maybe they are their worst enemy because they can't move on. Moving on is also not a Sunday School thing more a way to survive thing.

[Cobra's_back]

Hello GhostBusters101.

 

It's hard to debate things like Dragon Age at times because how much can we assume? You bring up a good point about Connor's undead army being destroyed. Can he make another? How long does he need? Where did he get the first undead army from? Can he use things other than undead like maybe rage demons? Since this is fiction we have to assume a lot for a discussion at times.

 

All I can assume is that the kid is still a major threat and I'd have a really bad feeling leaving the castle with the situation unresolved for days. Also, darkspawn are plaguing the realm eating people or whatever they do while I'm busy going through all this trouble for a kid who has no impact on the war besides doing a favor for the family of an old man in a coma.

 

I completely sympathize with wanting to play your character different ways. Just because the Grey Warden philosophy would sanction things like helping Zathrian or Bhelen doesn't mean your warden has to. Your warden may hate being a Grey Warden and is only doing it because no one else can. I, and many others, are simply saying that the idealistic choices you can make should sometimes not pay off. This feeling stems from Bioware's other series, Mass Effect, that had the same problem. In Zathrian and Connor's case I believe trying to save everyone should cause you to lose more than choosing the practical path despite having good intentions.

 

 

I like how you think. I agree, my warden hates doing anything they demand me to do. I just like being able to say, "Hey I found another way". 

[Cobra's_back]

The Sunday School thing applies because it starts piling up quest after quest. I feel like these games can veer into morality lesson after morality lesson at times. And I'm encouraged to ultimately roleplay one type of character. Something that basically boils down to Bioware's "Martyr" preset.

 

That the pattern keeps repeating in their games and quests is why I mockingly label it "Sunday School". It's almost as if there's an agenda to teach children how to behave well. It's predictably goody-good stuff, so I almost feel obligated to do something different.

 

Very interesting thanks for explaining. 

[congokong]

Just maybe they are their worst enemy because they can't move on. Moving on is also not a Sunday School thing more a way to survive thing.

 

"Can't move on." Isn't that the dalish people's motto. lol

 

Seriously, the dalish are annoying in that they complain to practically any shem they see about the injustice brought upon them. Even a dalish warden has to hear their whining. It's warranted to some degree of course but it's not endearing.

[congokong]

It is, really.

 

But then, if they did "move on", they'd just be City Elves.

 

But at least they'd stop complaining so much. Haha.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I emphasize: I cannot see a rational person recruiting them.

 
 

On my first blind playthrough I thought I must have been missing something when recruiting Sten became a quest. I had made no comment of recruiting him and yet there it was in the quest log. Additionally, Morrigan (whose advice you should never take) had apparently no understanding of the word prisoner and like Jowan wanted Sten released just because he was caged. My first response to a giant man in a cage who butchered a family was to get away from him; not bring him with me and let him sleep near me at night. So I kept talking to the villagers thinking that surely I missed something. Surely Bioware was going to give me some rational reason to recruit this monster. But no. He's a very literal, unfriendly giant who killed children with his bare hands. So I ran away from Lothering leaving him in that cage awaiting the darkspwan horde.
 
Zevran, aka Puss n Boots, at least gave a reason to recruit him. Of course it was still absurd. He could easily slit my throat at camp, run in the woods, then laugh over drinks with his friends over how stupid the Grey Warden was that they not only spared him but recruited him. And the Crows would never know the first attempt wasn't successful; assuming he was telling the truth that they indeed kill those who fail out of principle. Apparently it's a lie since he can rejoin the Crows later in the game. Zevran will also break his oath to you by doing this; not surprising since he breaks his oath to the Crows by joining you in the first place.

 

And I'm on a mission where I need people who are good at killing. Sten appears to fit the bill. It's also not for the faint-of-heart. I may have to be a bit ruthless to get my way, in which case, the heartless killer will do my bidding without the opposition I typically get for it from Alistair.

 

My Warden even ended up killing some brat, himself, so... go figure.

 

Zevran was already proven to be no match for the Wardens, who also has companions with him at camp. It's one against, like, seven? And unless there's some enforced curfew I'm not aware of, no reason to think every one of them is sound asleep at the same time. I rather doubt it, myself. I'm sure they'd keep some of them awake at one time given how many people are gunning for them, between Loghain supporters and Darkspawn like those shrieks.

[congokong]

 
 

 

And I'm on a mission where I need people who are good at killing. Sten appears to fit the bill. It's also not for the faint-of-heart. I may have to be a bit ruthless to get my way, in which case, the heartless killer will do my bidding without the opposition I typically get for it from Alistair.

 

My Warden even ended up killing some brat, himself, so... go figure.

 

Zevran was already proven to be no match for the Wardens, who also has companions with him at camp. It's one against, like, seven? And unless there's some enforced curfew I'm not aware of, no reason to think every one of them is sound asleep at the same time. I rather doubt it, myself. I'm sure they'd keep some of them awake at one time given how many people are gunning for them, between Loghain supporters and Darkspawn like those shrieks.

 

And I'll just repost what I said like 6 pages ago.

 

I can see myself recruiting Leliana much easier then Sten and Zevran. Sure, she may or may not be a little crazy. There are a lot of religious people who claim to have visions of god speaking to them. That's not enough for me to believe she's a threat to me. Emphasiis on those last few words. That's why I recruit Shale, Morrigan, and Leliana. They're not saints but there's nothing to indicate they'll kill me in my sleep. Zevran has tried to kill me already. He's an assassin. Assassins' morality is extremely questionable if non-existent. There's no way to know if he'll poison my food, slit my throat, or just run into the woods at night if I spare him. Sten's impression is that he's unstable. A person who murders children with his bare hands and regrets it reminds me of a husband who beats his wife and keeps apologizing for it. Those types of people are very dangerous. What if you have an argument with him and he kills you with his greatsword in a brief rage; followed by feeling sorry about it? That was my first impression of him and why I didn't recruit him before meta-gaming.

 

 

They don't complain unless you enter their turf. It's not like the average human (or even elf) even knows about them. Even Cailan admits he doesn't know much about the Dalish. Nor does Leliana, who knows a little of everything.

 

As for you, the PC, it's all part of the job. Grin and bear it. Heh

 

So you're saying that they don't complain about shems unless they encounter shems? Since they're nomads with no stationary home that just means whenever they see humans.

 

1. That doesn't do much to make me sympathize with them.

2. It's not entirely true. With your clan as a dalish many of the conversations revolve around the dalish whining. It's their thing.

[congokong]

As a clan member, it's hardly whining. The Hahren tells stories of the past. He's a poet/bard for their culture. He's actually pretty moderate as well. If you choose dialogue that's too contemptuous of the outside, he scolds you. He also points to a day when maybe they'll have closer relations with City Elves.. and the City Elves in turn will help them understand humans better.

 

You aren't necessarily expected to sympathize though, I think. You'll have to find that on your own, for your own reasons. Other than that, out of all the groups you encounter, the Dalish are the only ones where you can wipe out entire clans in both games. I think they go out of their way to let you be mean to them if you want. If you don't sympathize, then so be it.

 

If you're looking for a reason though, then know that their whole identity is built on loss. Everything to them is about things lost. Culture, history, magic, etc.. And for me, the things that they lost is what keeps me interested in Dragon Age the most. I want to discover more of their lore. Not "move on", but to uncover these things.

 

Those aren't stories. They're sermons.

 

The writers obviously do it to shove the dalish history down your throats but the examples you see of the dalish makes their "whining" define them. You never forget who you are or who they are when around them. Ex: Tiamlen bitching to the 3 humans in the forest, the dalish elf in Witch Hunt, Valenna, etc.)

 

 

They aren't big on co-existence either which bothers me a bit. Why would they welcome a city elf any more than a human? Just because they're an elf? Seems racist.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I can see myself recruiting Leliana much easier then Sten and Zevran. Sure, she may or may not be a little crazy. There are a lot of religious people who claim to have visions of god speaking to them. That's not enough for me to believe she's a threat to me. Emphasiis on those last few words. That's why I recruit Shale, Morrigan, and Leliana. They're not saints but there's nothing to indicate they'll kill me in my sleep. Zevran has tried to kill me already. He's an assassin. Assassins' morality is extremely questionable if non-existent. There's no way to know if he'll poison my food, slit my throat, or just run into the woods at night if I spare him. Sten's impression is that he's unstable. A person who murders children with his bare hands and regrets it reminds me of a husband who beats his wife and keeps apologizing for it. Those types of people are very dangerous. What if you have an argument with him and he kills you with his greatsword in a brief rage; followed by feeling sorry about it? That was my first impression of him and why I didn't recruit him before meta-gaming.

 

You do realize that Shale did kill her master, and even says later she has to resist the urge to squish someone(Alistair)'s head while he sleeps?

 

Zevran's dangers can be negated by simply keeping an eye on him. And again, I highly doubt that everyone in the party sleeps at the same time, given how many people are gunning for them. Otherwise, that shriek attack would have been it for them.

 

And the Warden also isn't some helpless peasant like those Sten killed.