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[congokong]

You do realize that Shale did kill her master, and even says later she has to resist the urge to squish someone(Alistair)'s head while he sleeps?

 

Zevran's dangers can be negated by simply keeping an eye on him. And again, I highly doubt that everyone in the party sleeps at the same time, given how many people are gunning for them. Otherwise, that shriek attack would have been it for them.

 

And the Warden also isn't some helpless peasant like those Sten killed.

 

I can sympathize with Shale killing someone who used her as a slave for a very long time. It may have been accidental even. The fact that a companion once killed someone with good reason doesn't make them a necessary threat to you. And if you haven't noticed, Shale makes half-jokes a lot.

 

Why would I want to recruit someone like Zevran who I have to keep an eye on all the time? And with only a few companions (not necessarily the max) he could easily evade their notice.

 

Not being a helpless peasant wouldn't save the warden from a greatsword blow from Sten in a fit of rage. Or it wouldn't stop Sten from going off the rails again and killing innocents if he proved unstable. Or it wouldn't stop him from trying to abandon the warden if they had a disagreement or Sten just refused to follow. Now you have a killer of children on the loose.

 

But once again I'm just paraphrasing what I've already said. If you feel so defensive about recruiting Sten/Zevran and don't think it's stupid then do it. There's not much more I can say.

 

Have you played the origin? There's a city elf in the camp. Pol. The one who dies later in DA2, scared by Merrill. It's not a hypothetical on whether they'd accept a city elf. They do. Same goes with Feynriel. The problem is finding the Dalish to begin with. Pol came only because of rumors.

 

That's what I'm saying. They're willing to accept city elves but scoff at humans. Just because I'm criticizing their behavior doesn't mean I want it to change in-game. I'm just acknowledging it.

[Cobra's_back]

It is, really.

 

But then, if they did "move on", they'd just be City Elves.

 

I like it this way though.

 

Not if they were smart. This they seem to miss. Diplomacy is not their strong suit. Apparently, they are suppose to be beautiful. If they mate with a human their children look human. A smarter race would know how to play this card and find ways to get into their neighbor's government.

[congokong]

I misunderstood then. We're in agreement there.

 

As for relations with humans, some people don't just "move on" or wish away things. It's just a fact of life, y'know? It'd be nice and awesome if they did, but they don't. A believable world has to reflect these realities sometimes, and not just blow sunshine up our collective asses and resolve every situation instantly with messages of peace. People do not just "move on".

 

Their reasons for not moving are clear though. Not vague or due to simple misguided prejudice. First they lost Arlathan, then became enslaved, then did the whole "peace" thing you want them to do, then after Andraste and Shartan died, they got screwed again. So now their motto is "We are the last of the Elvhenan. Never again shall we submit." It's only natural after getting your ass kicked time and time again that you simply stop trusting anyone. It doesn't mean they're actively antagonistic. It doesn't mean that they wage war. You gotta give them some credit. It just means that they've decided they'll have a better life wandering, keeping to themselves, trading lore and info between clans, and live with their pride in tact, and with some measure of freedom. 

 

It's certainly a realistic attitude and fits well in the game. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

I can understand their behavior but the whole "accepting of city elves" thing just seems like pure racism. Even though these elves have human culture/values the dalish accept them because they're elves.

 

Ex: Imagine wanting to move to the Democratic Republic of Congo but were refused because you were caucasian. However, your friend who is an african american is accepted because of his ancestry/appearance even though you both were brought up in the same culture in the same land with the same values.

[congokong]

They accept elves, because like I said, their whole mentality revolves around loss. And reclaiming what is lost. Humans aren't on that list of lost things. It's on the list of "things they found, but wished they didn't".

That's why they're so whiny and don't let go. ...And now we're back to the beginning of this discussion.

[congokong]

How is it whiny though? I can't write them off so easily. What other issues am I care about in this game? Ferelden and Orlesian politics? That only takes me so far. To me, the Elves "whine" about ancient, important mysteries in the lore. It's the most nagging thing about DA (to me). The lost history of Arlathan, the connection it may hold to Eluvian, and possibly tying it all up with the Fade and the Golden City. I have my own theories about all of this, but we don't know yet. I suspect the Tevinter magisters who entered the Golden City did it through Eluvian. And I think it's connected to the dwindling civilization of the Elves. And the appearance of darkspawn. I think it's all tied into things we're all told to care about, even if we don't care about elves specifically. It isn't garden variety whining.

 

If I don't care about this, then I might as well play any generic fantasy game. This is the stuff that sets it apart.

How are they whiny? They never let a shem forget that humans drove them from their homeland. Right at the beginning of the dalish origin Tiamlen says "Hard to believe you humans drove us from our homeland." When you visit the dalish clan that storyteller whines no matter what you say and gives you his sermon. Pretty much everything Valenna says in Awakening is whining.

 

But I don't really care about any of this. I'm just making conversation.

 

And ohhh. I like a good theory. A lot of them slip by me because I don't think much about things that are so deep in fiction like Eluvian and the Golden City. That does sound interesting though. Almost as interesting as the theory that Flemeth is an old god conceived in a ritual similar to Morrigan's.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The fact that a companion once killed someone with good reason doesn't make them a necessary threat to you.

 

No, but one that revels in killing for the pleasure of watching blood fountain out of the victims' neck may not be much safer than an assassin or an ex-prisoner. Just saying!
 

Why would I want to recruit someone like Zevran who I have to keep an eye on all the time? And with only a few companions (not necessarily the max) he could easily evade their notice.

 

Because, in-world, he's an elite rogue combatant. In gameplay terms, he does some pretty crazy DPS.

 

And if you're lacking companions, well, then you might want to recruit him so you've actually got some people to help you fight. I mean, taking an assassin along with your party seems like no more of a risk than trying to face the Darkspawn while your small army is understaffed.

 

When the US went to war with Iraq, they started accepting convicted felons (murderers, rapists), to the point where not one waiver to get these base individuals recruited was rejected. It may seem horrifying, but you don't need to be some exceptional person to be a soldier. You just need to be able to kill well and take orders. Getting the respect from your troops, keeping them happy and keeping them in line is just part of the challenge of being one of those in command, whatever the character of the ones following. This, in principle, is no different.

 

Not being a helpless peasant wouldn't save the warden from a greatsword blow from Sten in a fit of rage. Or it wouldn't stopSten from going off the rails again and killing innocents if he proved unstable. Or it wouldn't stop him from trying to abandon the warden if they had a disagreement or Sten just refused to follow. Now you have a killer of children on the loose.

 

Last I checked, the Warden routinely faces angry brutes with Greatswords, battleaxes, mauls, maces, longswords, daggers, bows and arrows, crossbows and bolts, even staves trying to kill him. If he goes bad, what's one more lunatic with a sword? Just more XP practice for the Warden.
 

If you feel so defensive about recruiting Sten/Zevran and don't think it's stupid then do it.

Pardon me, but I thought the point of playing these games and discussing what we did/do is for fun.

[Cobra's_back]

Their whole lore kind of negates the idea being desirable. They consider themselves the last elvhen. Protecting the gene pool is probably top priority. Squandering it on "Shem" politics sounds like a waste, in that context.

 

I would say the humans have just as much a diplomacy problem for the dismissal of Shartan and their exalted march.

 

True. But the humans won. As I see it, spying and finding ways to get inside your neighbor's government is always a good thing if your neighbor had the upper hand. 

[Cobra's_back]

As a clan member, it's hardly whining. The Hahren tells stories of the past. He's a poet/bard for their culture. He's actually pretty moderate as well. If you choose dialogue that's too contemptuous of the outside, he scolds you. He also points to a day when maybe they'll have closer relations with City Elves.. and the City Elves in turn will help them understand humans better.

 

You aren't necessarily expected to sympathize though, I think. You'll have to find that on your own, for your own reasons. Other than that, out of all the groups you encounter, the Dalish are the only ones where you can wipe out entire clans in both games. I think they go out of their way to let you be mean to them if you want. If you don't sympathize, then so be it.

 

If you're looking for a reason though, then know that their whole identity is built on loss. Everything to them is about things lost. Culture, history, magic, etc.. And for me, the things that they lost is what keeps me interested in Dragon Age the most. I want to discover more of their lore. Not "move on", but to uncover these things.

 

That sounds good. I always wanted to know more about them as well. Hopefully they will share more of this.

[congokong]

Pardon me, but I thought the point of playing these games and discussing what we did/do is for fun.

 

It's fun up to a certain point but I know when I've gotten into a debate with someone who'll never change my mind and I'll never change theirs so I try to end it early. That's what we should do.

[Lucy Glitter]

It's almost like poetic justice, them having to do that after so much bickering and bitchiness. I hated that Alistair called her a ******, and I hated that Morrigan called him an idiot. If I romanced him, my PC most likely would be a bit averse to it, but I do choose it quite a bit. I really like Morrigan (as well as PC wise usually as well) so I let her get away with it... probably shouldn't unless meta gaming but doesn't matter anyway.

[Han Shot First]

Oh poor Alistair, forced to have sex with Morrigan. How will he ever go on? 

 

[Orihime]

um......>.>

 

In Honesty =s i love how alistair and morrigan act like brother and sister and i always thought them picking on eachother was funny

i didnt think having him do the dark ritual was too bad since i would always do it x] so no problem there

[Lucy Glitter]

I hate that as a female PC which is all I really play unless I'm specifically interested in a male PC character I've been pondering, I hate that I can't just do it myself and that it wasn't something more creative so that you as the female PC have to do it yourself the way the male PC would have that choice. Instead, I have to go convince alistair to do it. I find that really bothersome. Why do I have to rely upon him to do it? Why am I, as a female pc, put in this weird position to convince a virgin or newly minted non-virgin to sleep with someone he cannot stand. It feels so sexist. The whole thing. I'd rather just do it myself but because I am a female pc I have to bring him into it because gaider couldn't come up with some other way it could be done than to screw morrigan and make her pregnant, which as a female PC, I lack the proper equipment.

 

Why is that sexist? Not everything can be done by a woman nor everything done by a man. The writers can choose to write what they want, how they see fit and what they think works best for the story. It's an ancient ritual and it's a very base one which seems to fit very well into the rest of the Witch sub-story. 

 

I hate to break it to you but the writers don't play, "safe and politically correct" just to keep everyone happy.

[Cat Lance]

I hate that as a female PC which is all I really play unless I'm specifically interested in a male PC character I've been pondering, I hate that I can't just do it myself and that it wasn't something more creative so that you as the female PC have to do it yourself the way the male PC would have that choice. Instead, I have to go convince alistair to do it. I find that really bothersome. Why do I have to rely upon him to do it? Why am I, as a female pc, put in this weird position to convince a virgin or newly minted non-virgin to sleep with someone he cannot stand. It feels so sexist. The whole thing. I'd rather just do it myself but because I am a female pc I have to bring him into it because gaider couldn't come up with some other way it could be done than to screw morrigan and make her pregnant, which as a female PC, I lack the proper equipment.

Waitwaitwait, you are taking a situation where a man is potentially forced into non consensual sex in an optional quest line and trying to say it's sexist to women because we can't be forced into it too!?!?!?

Now I've seen everything.

[Mike3207]

Waitwaitwait, you are taking a situation where a man is potentially forced into non consensual sex in an optional quest line and trying to say it's sexist to women because we can't be forced into it too!?!?!?

Now I've seen everything.

I'm pretty sure Alistair gives his consent to do the ritual with Morrigan.You might have used coercion/persuasion to get him to agree, but it's simply wrong to say it was nonconsensual.

[Cat Lance]

I'm pretty sure Alistair gives his consent to do the ritual with Morrigan.You might have used coercion/persuasion to get him to agree, but it's simply untrue to say it was nonconsensual.

I should have used the term "forced consent." At the end of the day it's all the same thing, but that is the more proper term.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

How about Morrigan? Why always think of Alistair?

 

I feel sorry for the both of them but damn, Alistair doesn't have to hold a baby in his womb for nine months and give birth. Morrigan had it worse, not only having to sleep with someone she loathes but then carrying a baby while she is on the run? That's ten times worse than Alistair.