579 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I'm pretty sure Alistair gives his consent to do the ritual with Morrigan.You might have used coercion/persuasion to get him to agree, but it's simply wrong to say it was nonconsensual.

 

Consent is a bit of a weird issue here, though, because the basis of the agreement to this ritual boils down to avoiding the death roulette of slaying the archdemon. My Warden is female, and when this option was presented to me, the first thing I thought was "Man, Alistair just can't catch a break. First I convince him to marry some lady he doesn't really love, and now I'm going to try to convince him to lay with a Witch of the motherfrakkin' Wilds?" Provided that one's mind doesn't totally exist in one's pants, I can see how this would be a serious problem to certain people.

 

How about Morrigan? Why always think of Alistair?

 

I feel sorry for the both of them but damn, Alistair doesn't have to hold a baby in his womb for nine months and give birth. Morrigan had it worse, not only having to sleep with someone she loathes but then carrying a baby while she is on the run? That's ten times worse than Alistair.

 

I don't really see much reason to feel sorry for Morrigan. I don't know whether or not she was coerced into this by some unseen force, but from what I gather in her conversation, she very much wants the untainted soul of the Old God. Despite her derisive comments, I don't believe that she actually loathes Alistair, but just the same, that doesn't stop her from treating this affair pretty casually. As far as I can tell, she's freely assuming responsibility. She could have stayed if she wanted, though this would be a considerable risk, since it's possible that someone might find out and take the baby, or worse, kill it.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Consent is a bit of a weird issue here, though, because the basis of the agreement to this ritual boils down to avoiding the death roulette of slaying the archdemon. My Warden is female, and when this option was presented to me, the first thing I thought was "Man, Alistair just can't catch a break. First I convince him to marry some lady he doesn't really love, and now I'm going to try to convince him to lay with a Witch of the motherfrakkin' Wilds?" Provided that one's mind doesn't totally exist in one's pants, I can see how this would be a serious problem to certain people.

 

 

I don't really see much reason to feel sorry for Morrigan. I don't know whether or not she was coerced into this by some unseen force, but from what I gather in her conversation, she very much wants the untainted soul of the Old God. Despite her derisive comments, I don't believe that she actually loathes Alistair, but just the same, that doesn't stop her from treating this affair pretty casually. As far as I can tell, she's freely assuming responsibility. She could have stayed if she wanted, though this would be a considerable risk, since it's possible that someone might find out and take the baby, or worse, kill it.

 

Morrigan and Alistair both talked about how they hated each other and Alistair went so far as to threaten death, tbh, I'm not gonna say it's anything less than a mutual hatred. She knows its her responsibility and she won't shirk from, but that doesn't mean it's less of a hardship for her. Yeah, she had to be on the run to protect OGB but a heaving pregnant woman on the run isn't the safest situation either, more tiresome, etc. That's why I don't see why everyone sympathizing with Alistair and villainizing Morrigan. 

[Mike3207]

If the Landsmeet proves anything, it's that you can't make Alistair do anything he doesn't want to do.I'll be the first to admit though that i'm not Alistair's biggest fan, and it doesn't bother me a bit if he has some angst in his life.

[KaiserShep]

Morrigan and Alistair both talked about how they hated each other and Alistair went so far as to threaten death, tbh, I'm not gonna say it's anything less than a mutual hatred. She knows its her responsibility and she won't shirk from, but that doesn't mean it's less of a hardship for her. Yeah, she had to be on the run to protect OGB but a heaving pregnant woman on the run isn't the safest situation either, more tiresome, etc. That's why I don't see why everyone sympathizing with Alistair and villainizing Morrigan. 

 

Which banter are you talking about?

 

The one that I know of requires you to be in a relationship with Alistair, and then break up later. After which point, she'll comment on it, and he gets annoyed and says that he will run his sword through her. My impression was that this was idle talk not to be taken seriously, because people say the damnedest things when they're unhappy.

 

As one whose Warden befriends Morrigan, I don't vilify her over the dark ritual issue. As for her hardship, this is something she seemingly wants to do, which is why I'm disinclined to sympathize.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Which banter are you talking about?

 

The one that I know of requires you to be in a relationship with Alistair, and then break up later. After which point, she'll comment on it, and he gets annoyed and says that he will run his sword through her. My impression was that this was idle talk not to be taken seriously, because people say the damnedest things when they're unhappy.

 

As one whose Warden befriends Morrigan, I don't vilify her over the dark ritual issue. As for her hardship, this is something she seemingly wants to do, which is why I'm disinclined to sympathize.

 

There's that one but also:

 

Alistair: Maybe you'd prefer to lead? That would be worth a good laugh, for a while.

Morrigan: You sound so very defensive.

Alistair: Couldn't you crawl into a bush somewhere and die? That would be great, thanks.

 

 

But that IS hardened Alistair so IDK how much of it I can consider canon, really. But for sure they have a very strong dislike towards one another that never improves.

 

My Warden befriended Morrigan and Alistair, just the amount of people talking about how Morrigan treated Alistair and never vice versa was off. And yeah, she wants to do it but that still doesn't mean it isn't a hardship, but that's just how I see it honestly.

[KaiserShep]

That's not really a threat, and I guess this goes to how people interpret this banter. Lots of people tell other people to go play in traffic, but often it's not to seriously say that they really want you to die. Anyway, that conversation can be had as early as Lothering, so it seems like a pretty short period of time for him to actually want her to die, especially after what just happened at Ostagar.

[Xetykins]

There's that one but also:
 
Alistair: Maybe you'd prefer to lead? That would be worth a good laugh, for a while.
Morrigan: You sound so very defensive.
Alistair: Couldn't you crawl into a bush somewhere and die? That would be great, thanks.
 
 
But that IS hardened Alistair so IDK how much of it I can consider canon, really. But for sure they have a very strong dislike towards one another that never improves.
 
My Warden befriended Morrigan and Alistair, just the amount of people talking about how Morrigan treated Alistair and never vice versa was off. And yeah, she wants to do it but that still doesn't mean it isn't a hardship, but that's just how I see it honestly.

Thats a threat for you? A threat is Alistair threatening to run his sword through Morrigan if she did not shut up about his break up with the pc :-)

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Thats a threat for you? A threat is Alistair threatening to run his sword through Morrigan if she did not shut up about his break up with the pc :-)

 

Yep, another threat. Alistair threatens someone's life over a break up kind of means hatred in my book. 

 

That's not really a threat, and I guess this goes to how people interpret this banter. Lots of people tell other people to go play in traffic, but often it's not to seriously say that they really want you to die. Anyway, that conversation can be had as early as Lothering, so it seems like a pretty short period of time for him to actually want her to die, especially after what just happened at Ostagar.

 

Ah, maybe not, my English isn't that good so maybe I lumped threat with something else. Maybe wishing death would suit it better? Also, it happened that early? I didn't know you could harden Alistair that quick?

[Jeffonl1]

I actually think Alistair has a secret crush on Morrigan.. It's a school yard like thing.. Except it's Morrigan teasing Alistair. Look at how hard it is for a female PC to bed Alistair, but Alistair agrees in a minute to sleep with Morrigan.. And why does Morrigan chose Alistair for the DR anyway?
And in a epilogue Alistair is actually sad to see her go...

[Han Shot First]

I actually think Alistair has a secret crush on Morrigan.. It a school yard like thing.. Except it's Morrigan teasing Alistair Look at how it is for a female PC to bed Aistair, but Alistair agrees in a minute to sleep with Morrigan.. And why does Morrigan chose Alistair anyway?
And in a epilogue Alistair is sad to see her go

 

Exactly.

 

He might not exactly like Morrigan as a person, but I also think that deep down he wants her. There is even dialogue with the male Warden where Alistair complains about the Warden sleeping with her, and the Warden can tease Alistair that he's jealous. Alistair gets defensive...probably because there is a shard of truth to it. 

 

Don't pity Alistair. If you convinced him to do the DR he probably had hate sex with Morrigan and loved it. Congrats on giving Alistair the best 30 seconds of his life.

[Xetykins]

Heh.. whatever makes you guys sleep at night for feeding him to Morrigan :-p

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Heh.. whatever makes you guys sleep at night for feeding him to Morrigan :-p

That's an easy one: he's not dead.

[Mello]

FIRST DRAGON AGE BOOK SPOILERS!!!!!!!
When Marric and Loghain meet Flemmeth in the books she demands Marric sleep with her. Given timing, that should make Morrigan Alistair's slightly older half sister.
END SPOILERS

Where does it ever confirm in the novels that the "secret" was Maric sleeping with Flemeth? Isn't that still just a theory? 

[Corker]

Don't pity Alistair. If you convinced him to do the DR he probably had hate sex with Morrigan and loved it. Congrats on giving Alistair the best 30 seconds of his life.

 

Yeah... no.

 

My first PT, I got 80% of the way through the conversation with him - f!Cousland, in love until the Landsmeet breakup, etc.  I could have hit the [Persuade] option and sealed the deal by the power of game mechanics.  Instead, I picked one of the "second thoughts" lines. I don't recall if it was "maybe this isn't a good idea" or "if you don't want to, never mind," but the gist of it was, the Warden backed off.

 

And Alistair is entirely relieved.  Knowing that yup, he's probably gonna die; yup, he just turned down a chance to live - he's relieved.  

 

Yes, you can get him to do it.  But if you put a loaded gun to someone's head and say, "Do this," and they do it, we don't  call that "consent."  

 

I am sympathetic to a POV like Riverdaleswhiteflash, where the perceived benefit to making the DR happen outweighs the cost.  Bioware's trademark is setting up these decisions where the right answer isn't obvious.  Coercing Alistair or Loghain into the ritual (and what do we call coerced sex, everyone?  We call it rape) is one of the costs.  The benefit is saving two lives.  It's supposed to be a hard choice.  Don't trivialize it, and don't minimize what the Warden does to make it happen.

[Han Shot First]

Oh please.

 

If you have Alistair do the dark ritual that is not rape and calling it rape trivializes actual rape. If you had Alistair do the DR with Morrigan it was consensual sex between adults and Alistair enjoyed it.  Alistair agrees to it, and It would be kind of impossible to get Morrigan pregnant  if he wasn't able to rise to the occasion. 

 

I didn't go that route, for the record. I had my Warden do the DR. I just find these posts about poor traumatized Alistair to be hilarious. Seems to me that DR Alistair was living the dream.

[KaiserShep]

He did look a little worried at first. Heh.

But then, if I went to bed with someone that could turn into a giant spider, I'd be worried too.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

If you have Alistair do the dark ritual that is not rape and calling it rape trivializes actual rape. If you had Alistair do the DR with Morrigan it was consensual sex between adults and Alistair enjoyed it.  Alistair agrees to it, and It would be kind of impossible to get Morrigan pregnant  if he wasn't able to rise to the occasion.

There are pharmaceutical ways to get a man aroused, and Morrigan is proficient with potions.

Rape doesn't have to be violent. It doesn't mean the victim hasn't been led to say "I agree to this." Rape means someone who doesn't want to have sex is made or persuaded to have sex against their will.

Neither Alistair nor Loghain will agree to the Dark Ritual unless the Warden uses coercion on them. Both men will refuse if you leave the option entirely up to them and you don't pressure them into doing what you want.
 
Out of curiosity, how do you define rape?

[AventuroLegendary]

You know, I remember another game that involved possible half-siblings conceiving a child. It resulted in the near-end of the world.

 

I'm getting a tingly feeling that Inquisition's case won't be much better.

[Jeffonl1]

Wouldn’t Alistair say something to reassure you that being with Morrigan was awful, he hated it, he never wants to see her again, etc., etc.?  But no, there’s none of that.

LOL stirring the pot here i think

[KaiserShep]

Wouldn’t Alistair say something to reassure you that being with Morrigan was awful, he hated it, he never wants to see her again, etc., etc.?  But no, there’s none of that.

LOL stirring the pot here i think

 

While he doesn't complain about it, any dialogue he has about it afterward, both at the gates of Denerim and during the coronation doesn't really give the impression that it sits fondly in his memory. I think the bigger issue is the fact that the ritual involves a total unknown, as he put it, having a demon baby with a maleficar to some end that no one can determine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You know, I remember another game that involved possible half-siblings conceiving a child. It resulted in the near-end of the world.

 

I'm getting a tingly feeling that Inquisition's case won't be much better.

Morrigan implies that she intends to use the kid to save the world somehow. (Though I'm not really sure how since we already know the Inquisitor cannot also be the OGB. For that matter the reason Gaider gave for this precludes him being the main antagonist of pretty much anything even if we don't trust Morrigan.)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Morrigan implies that she intends to use the kid to save the world somehow.

Where? In DA:O she said she intended him to be a symbol of an old magic. In Witch Hunt she said he had a destiny, but was ignorant of it. I don't remember her saying anything that would imply him saving the world.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Where? In DA:O she said she intended him to be a symbol of an old magic. In Witch Hunt she said he had a destiny, but was ignorant of it. I don't remember her saying anything that would imply him saving the world.

Her portentous tone kinda screamed "this kid is going to save the world" or something along those lines, at least to me. Or failing that, that at least he was going to be world-changingly significant.

[Xetykins]

That's an easy one: he's not dead.

Im talking about these morrigan -alistair crush crazy theory. Sometimes hate is just hate. Kind of hard to gets attracted to a person who mocks, kicks you when you're at your lowest. Biatchy people just dont attract everyone.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Im talking about these morrigan -alistair crush crazy theory. Sometimes hate is just hate. Kind of hard to gets attracted to a person who mocks, kicks you when you're at your lowest. Biatchy people just dont attract everyone.

unless they're hot