579 réponses à ce sujet

[Xetykins]

But I hear a lot of people calling Morrigan a bloodmage. She does not condone blood magic. Her reaction to connor for example shows us that. She does not totally snobs it though as what we've seen with jowan. What she practice is old old magic thats almost pretty much forgotten. Unless there is evidence somewhere that the ritual is indeed blood magic.

[Klidi]

I think that only depends on how you roleplay it. If you insist that Alistair and Morrigan hate each other, then yes, it's rather traumatic - for both of them.

 

Personally, I don't believe they hate each other. They remind me of my two friends, who behaved much like Alistair and Morrigan... and now they are for several years a happy married couple. Maybe that's why Alistair/Morrigan romances are among my favourites fanfiction stories. 

 

Most of my Wardens are boys, but they are gays and romance Zevran. So it's up to Alistair to do the ritual... but he would disagree that he's 'poor'.  

[Xetykins]

Her portentous tone kinda screamed "this kid is going to save the world" or something along those lines, at least to me. Or failing that, that at least he was going to be world-changingly significant.

Could be that he will pretty much destroy the world. That is why I do not trust it however morrigan tries to make it sound better. She herself does not even fully understand it.

[Xetykins]

unless they're hot

And a masochists :-p

[Tommy6860]

I didn't go that route, for the record. I had my Warden do the DR. I just find these posts about poor traumatized Alistair to be hilarious. Seems to me that DR Alistair was living the dream.

 

Even then, your warden was coerced into doing the ritual as Morrigan makes it ever so clear through her emotional pleas, that she'll leave and leave you to your impending death (or another warden if he goes to the roof with you), if you do not perform this ritual. I can refuse and Morrigan plays it off as if I am giving up glory for another (if the DR is with Loghain/Alistair). I can go on, but it is all coercion. In the last remark where I make it absolutely no for either party, she becomes petulant talking about the ritual as passing an opportunity and then says something to the effect, "Goodbye my love, if you live on, it will probably be with regret."  Needless to say that can be construed as nothing else.

[AlanC9]

Wait.... that's a bit much. Morrigan isn't the one choosing that a Warden must die if your PC doesn't go through with the DR. That's simply the reality of the situation, which she didn't create. Refusing the DR is a dealbreaker for the romance, which I suppose counts as coercion, in the same way that Hawke objecting to Isabela having sex with Zevran counts as coercion.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Could be that he will pretty much destroy the world. That is why I do not trust it however morrigan tries to make it sound better. She herself does not even fully understand it.

That occurred to me too, hence why I pointed out that Gaider's reason why he can't be a PC also precludes him being a main antagonist.

[Jeffonl1]

And a masochists :-p

hmm Alistair you mean

[Xetykins]

hmm Alistair you mean

Odd way of viewing him but if thats the way you see him, then by all means , it's your game :-)

[Pateu]

He doesn't have to agree to do it. You have to persuade him.

 

That's rape.

 

Consenting to sex under duress ( the threat of you dying/your friend dying is duress ) is rape.

 

It's irrelevant if you say yes or not as long as the circumstances made saying '' No '' dangerous to you or a friend.

[theskymoves]

But I hear a lot of people calling Morrigan a bloodmage. She does not condone blood magic. Her reaction to connor for example shows us that. She does not totally snobs it though as what we've seen with jowan. What she practice is old old magic thats almost pretty much forgotten. Unless there is evidence somewhere that the ritual is indeed blood magic.

 

Morrigan says that it's blood magic.

 

Morrigan: I offer a way out. A way out for all the Grey Wardens, that there need be no sacrifice. A ritual...performed on the eve of battle, in the dark of night.
Warden: Just what sort of ritual is this?
Morrigan: It is old magic, from a time before the Circle of Magi was created. Some might call it blood magic, but that is but a name. There is far more to fear in this world than names.

 

The toolset notes for that last line are "speaking very carefully, she is trying to downplay the fact that blood magic is evil".

 

There are two other variants on the last line, depending on certain player choices:

 

(If the Warden is a Blood Mage, Reaver, or Assassin) Some would call it blood magic, but I think that means little to one like you.

(If the Warden used blood magic to save Connor) Some would call it blood magic, but I think recent days have taught you this is not always to be feared.

 

And Alistair correctly suspects that it is blood magic:

 

Alistair: You're not actually asking me this, are you? What kind of ritual is this, anyway?
Warden: Magic is magic. That doesn't change anything.
Alistair: Who are you talking to? Of course it changes things. What if this is blood magic? I bet it's blood magic, isn't it!

[Xetykins]

Still pretty vague tho. And what magic people dont understand will be labeled blood magic anyway. But knowing where she learned that spell from... well it could be.

[Klidi]

That's rape.

 

Consenting to sex under duress ( the threat of you dying/your friend dying is duress ) is rape.

 

It's irrelevant if you say yes or not as long as the circumstances made saying '' No '' dangerous to you or a friend.

 

No. Morrigan is not threatening Alistair. It's not her fault that the Warden who kills the Archdemon dies. She offers a way out. She's not saying, 'have a sex with me or die'. She's saying, 'I know about the danger you're in, and I have a solution'. The Warden is free to decide if they want to do it, or not. Morrigan is not raping anyone. 

[Pateu]

Threatening her or not, she's saying '' If you don't bang me, you or your friend will die. ''

 

It's irrelevant whether it's by her hand or not.

 

Even ignoring that, you have to PERSUADE Alistair to do it.

[Han Shot First]

That's rape.

 

Consenting to sex under duress ( the threat of you dying/your friend dying is duress ) is rape.

 

It's irrelevant if you say yes or not as long as the circumstances made saying '' No '' dangerous to you or a friend.

 

If you go to a car dealership and an aggressive car dealer ends up talking you into purchasing a vehicle you later regret buying, are you the victim of a robbery?

[Pateu]

If you go to a car dealership and an aggressive car dealer ends up talking you into purchasing a vehicle you later regret buying, are you the victim of a robbery?

 

If you know your family will die if you don't buy the car, yes- which is the case here.

[Han Shot First]

Rape doesn't have to be violent. It doesn't mean the victim hasn't been led to say "I agree to this." Rape means someone who doesn't want to have sex is made or persuaded to have sex against their will.

 

*snip*

Out of curiosity, how do you define rape?

 

How do I define rape?

 

Not the DR, for starters. Whether it is the Warden, Loghain, or Alistair...consent is freely given.

[Han Shot First]

If you know your family will die if you don't buy the car, yes- which is the case here.

 

Morrigan isn't the cause of the Wardens dying. The blight and the darkspawn taint is. She simply offers a way out of it.

 

And there is no reason why the Wardens couldn't have said, "No thanks, one of us will die." After all that is what is expected of them as Grey Wardens. A Grey Warden has always died ending a blight. It is part of the job description.

 

Alistair being talked into the DR is no more rape than being talked into a reluctant purchase by an aggressive salesman is theft or robbery. No is an easy word to say. It is two letters and one syllable.

[Pateu]

Morrigan isn't the cause of the Wardens dying. The blight and the darkspawn taint is. She simply offers a way out of it.

 

Gunman has your family at gun point.

 

I offer to have sex with you, which will save them.

 

Still rape.

 

Alistair being talked into the DR is no more rape than being talked into a reluctant purchase by an aggressive salesman is theft or robbery.

 

Except rape and buying a car are completely different things.

 

Sexual consent given under coercion/duress is invalid.

[Han Shot First]

Gunman has your family at gun point.

 

I offer to have sex with you, which will save them.

 

Still rape.

 

 

 

That comparison doesn't work because Morrigan was not in any way responsible for the possibility that the Wardens would die. She did not make them undertake the Joining. She did not create the archdemon or the Blight. 

 

 

 

Except rape and buying a car are completely different things.

Sexual consent given under coercion/duress is invalid.

 

Alistair wasn't coerced. Consent was freely given, just as it was in the used car scenario.

[Pateu]

That comparison doesn't work because Morrigan was not in any responsible for the possibility that the Wardens would die.

 

Nor did I suggest I was the gunman.

 

I am Superman, I could very well save your family, if you had sex with me.

 

It's the same thing.

 

You are unwittingly coerced by the circumstances to accept.

[Han Shot First]

Nor did I suggest I was the gunman.

 

I am Superman, I could very well save your family, if you had sex with me.

 

It's the same thing.

 

You are unwittingly coerced by the circumstances to accept.

 

That comparison still doesn't work.

 

Morrigan isn't responsible for the Blight. She isn't responsible for the Joining. And she is not responsible for the fact that an archdemon's soul will kill the Warden that slays it. Morrigan also isn't responsible for the fact that the only way to avoid a Warden's duty (and it is part of their job description) is through the Dark Ritual. It isn't like there were other ways of avoiding death (short of desertion) that Morrigan was concealing. 

 

Furthermore Alistair is an adult that is fully capable of saying no. He doesn't. 

 

Its not rape and calling it rape trivializes actual rape.

[Jeffonl1]

So .. Are we talking still talking about the ritual? Isn't Alistair objecting to the ritual, not the sex act?

[Han Shot First]

So .. Are we talking still talking about the ritual? Isn't Alistair objecting to the ritual, not the sex act?

 

That as well. 

 

After all the Warden, who could potentially have been romancing Morrigan for the entire game, can express the same reservations and will have the same worried facial expression in the cutscene. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

How do I define rape?

Yes. Please, how do you define it? Not how do you not define it.