579 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

 

Alistair being talked into the DR is no more rape than being talked into a reluctant purchase by an aggressive salesman is theft or robbery.

 

Except rape and buying a car are completely different things.

 

Sexual consent given under coercion/duress is invalid.

 

I'll let Han Shot First handle the question of whether this argument makes sense.

 

I've got a different question. Where are you going with this? Let's say we all agree with you that the consent is invalid. So what?

 

You're not saying that it's immoral for Morrigan to offer the DR, are you? Is it just that Bio are meanies for putting the PC and Alistair in this position?

 

Sounds to me like if we accept that this is rape, then sometimes rape is the right thing to do. I'm certain that's not the argument you want to make, but Alistair and the Warden are better off with the DR offer than without it; it would be positively evil for Morrigan to withhold knowledge of the DR from them. If you don't intend this argument to go there, then you'd better show us where we get off that track.

[AlanC9]

Nor did I suggest I was the gunman.

 

I am Superman, I could very well save your family, if you had sex with me.

 

It's the same thing.

 

You are unwittingly coerced by the circumstances to accept.

 

This is a terrible analogy. Superman can stop the gunman without the sex. Morrigan doesn't have that option.

[KaiserShep]

Superman can stop the gunman without the sex.

 

He could, but what if the gunman could give in to temptation?

[DarthGizka]

That's rape.

 

Consenting to sex under duress ( the threat of you dying/your friend dying is duress ) is rape.

 

It's irrelevant if you say yes or not as long as the circumstances made saying '' No '' dangerous to you or a friend.

 

Bollocks.

 

If Morrigan offers the Dark Ritual as an alternative to sacrificing a Warden then she is not using an unrelated threat to force someone into having sex with her. Producing a child is an integral part of the solution she offers, and without IVF that can only be done in the traditional manner.

If Morrigan threatens to walk out - potentially crippling the team and endangering the success of the mission - then she is using an unrelated threat to get her way, and that makes it rape.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah this thread just solidifes my whole Loghain being Archedemon chow canon.

 

If only there was a way for hardened Alistair not to become a drunk if you spare him and have him pardoned without having to make him king.

 

And Morrigan does threaten to walk out if you don't do the DR. Though I do admit to being amused when she does that offer to my HN who asked her to bounce at Lothering. He just stares at her like "why in the hell would I trust you with anything? I don't know you from Adam."

[DarthGizka]

Does Morrigan actually threaten to walk out or does she simply go if you don't give in? Don't remember.

[Ryzaki]

Does Morrigan actually threaten to walk out or does she simply go if you don't give in? Don't remember.

 

She tells you if you refuse her she's leaving I believe.

[Han Shot First]

Yes. Please, how do you define it? Not how do you not define it.

 

I thought it was made clear in previous posts.

 

It involves lack of consent. Consent is given in the DR; ergo, it is not rape. Peer pressure is not enough to define a sexual encounter as a sexual assault.

[DarthGizka]

She tells you if you refuse her she's leaving I believe.

 

You're right. I finally found it:

 

Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now. This is... simply how it must be.

[Lucy Glitter]

How about Morrigan? Why always think of Alistair?

 

I feel sorry for the both of them but damn, Alistair doesn't have to hold a baby in his womb for nine months and give birth. Morrigan had it worse, not only having to sleep with someone she loathes but then carrying a baby while she is on the run? That's ten times worse than Alistair.

 

Sure, but she knew that from the get-go. It was always her plan and she actually wanted that. I think Morrigan sees sex (for the most part) as a means to an end and she will use it without any remorse to get where she needs to go. I also don't think she loathes Alistair... she just thinks he's an idiot. He's always the one hating on her, she shrugs off his attacks like they're nothing. I don't think either of them have it worse... they're just in completely different mindsets and situations. Alistair does it because he's been convinced it's the best option and deals. Morrigan does it because it was always her plan. 

 

Now, as for the trekking alone whilst preggers? That sucks, but again, I feel like she knew how hard it would be. Whatever reason it is, I think she knows how important it is to her and is willing to deal.

 

EDIT: Why in the nine hells has this devolved into a heated discussion about rape? Can we... not talk about that on here? Jesus H Christ. It's like Tumblr!

[Ryzaki]

You're right. I finally found it:

 

Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now. This is... simply how it must be.

 

Yep there it is.

 

I only wish I could've had my male HN laugh in her face (especially if he recruited Loghain). She'd done nothing but been a cagey manipulative witch and she thought he was gonna do her a favor? LOL.

 

And she's so mad when he sees her in witch hunt. My HN totally had the U mad look on his face during that conversation.

[DarthGizka]

It involves lack of consent. Consent is given in the DR; ergo, it is not rape.

Wrong. The point that's been debated for the last day or so is that consent is nil if it is coerced.

[Ryzaki]

Wrong. The point that's been debated for the last day or so is that consent is nil if it is coerced.

 

See personally I don't feel it was rape mostly because she didn't put them in that position (the archdemon and Riordan and Duncan being cagey secretive bastards for no damn good reason did that). However it isn't fully consenting cause she is using and exploiting their lives to get the DR done. (Of course if your PC's suicidal or recruited Loghain (or just doesn't give a damn if Alistair kills himself) this can backfire on her spectacularly). She knows from the very beginning about the cost. If she had told the warden at the beginning there's a chance he/she would've recruited Loghain for that specifically and that'd been the end of it. But of course she doesn't tell the warden early cause she wants to exploit the hell out of that vulnerability.

 

That said it is quite firmly in the grey area. But the slim thing holding it back is she isn't reason their lives are in danger. The warden choose to help Fereldan. If he/she had trekked to Orlais it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

Man the more I think of it the more I love hoisting the **** out of her by her own petard. Now I'm just not sure if I should play my suicidal HNM first or my feed Loghain to archie HNF. Man I hope Inq can screw her plans over too.

[Jeffonl1]

EDIT: Why in the nine hells has this devolved into a heated discussion about rape? Can we... not talk about that on here? Jesus H Christ. It's like Tumblr!

I really would like to second this. Its a bit much

[KaiserShep]

I thought it was made clear in previous posts.

 

It involves lack of consent. Consent is given in the DR; ergo, it is not rape. Peer pressure is not enough to define a sexual encounter as a sexual assault.

 

This is a subject I'm hesitant to really approach, because once the word rape starts floating about, it sets a much different tone for the discussion, and of course I also had Alistair go through with the ritual, mainly because my Warden was incapable of doing it herself.

 

I will say that it's understandable why consent is seen as such a shaky thing in this situation, because it's difficult to determine whether or not Alistair would have agreed to do anything like this with Morrigan if the lives of the three remaining Wardens did not hang in the balance. For male Wardens, Alistair can make it clear that he considers Morrigan to be physically attractive, but physical attractiveness isn't really the issue anyway; it's all this ominous hokus-pokus business that necessitates the sexual encounter to begin with, aside from a personality that he clearly dislikes, and shows surprise if you express positive feelings about her. The fact that Alistair's agreement relies on appealing to his trust in the Warden, despite really having nothing to lose should the ritual simply not work, does kind of stand out a little.

[Todd23]

What? Losing his virginity to a hot chick he hates in a blood magic ritual (wholly against his morals), and subsequently impregnating her with a child he'll fear and never get to see?

[AlanC9]

He could, but what if the gunman could give in to temptation?

 

Well, that's a whole other case. Still doesn't work as a DR analogy, since the gunman's responsible for that situation in a way that Morrigan just isn't for the DR.

[Frostfyre]

 

 

EDIT: Why in the nine hells has this devolved into a heated discussion about rape? Can we... not talk about that on here? Jesus H Christ. It's like Tumblr!

 

My question exactly. Now, I just feel very uncomfortable reading the last few posts. :/

[theskymoves]

 

EDIT: Why in the nine hells has this devolved into a heated discussion about rape? Can we... not talk about that on here? Jesus H Christ. It's like Tumblr!

 

Hmmm... maybe there's a marketing strategy in there somewhere. "Try the NEW BSN! Just like Tumblr, but without the porn!"

[Frostfyre]

Hmmm... maybe there's a marketing strategy in there somewhere. "Try the NEW BSN! Just like Tumblr, but without the porn!"

 

I agree, but I think we need more socioplolitical discussions here to be on par with Tumblr. I digress. 

[AlanC9]

You're right. I finally found it:

 

Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now. This is... simply how it must be.

 

Right. I saw this in my first playthrough (romanced Morrigan, Warden went US). She shapeshifts and sneaks out of the castle.

 

There was a rumor that she attends the Warden's funeral in shifted form. Anyone know if this is really true?

[AlanC9]

 

I only wish I could've had my male HN laugh in her face (especially if he recruited Loghain). She'd done nothing but been a cagey manipulative witch and she thought he was gonna do her a favor? LOL.

 

 

I'm never quite sure how Morrigan got the reputation for being any more manipulative than Wynne is. They both try and talk the Warden into stuff.

[KaiserShep]

Right. I saw this in my first playthrough (romanced Morrigan, Warden went US). She shapeshifts and sneaks out of the castle.

 

There was a rumor that she attends the Warden's funeral in shifted form. Anyone know if this is really true?

 

I think I caught a glimpse of a giant spider standing around somewhere in the background.

[AlanC9]

Heh. I thought it was supposed to be a fox, or maybe a small dog.

[kalasaurus]

The wiki mentions a rumor that Morrigan is the small grey dog (identical to the one she shape shifts into if the ritual is refused) that's near Sten in the Coronation.