579 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Wait.... you're saying that she doesn't tell the Warden about the DR earlier because she's worried that he'll decide to make Loghain into a Grey Warden, and so there might be less need for the DR? I wasn't aware precognition was one of her abilities.

 

She doesn't tell the warden because she wants him/her unbalanced so they'll be more inclined to do her offer to begin with. If the PC had know he/she was gonna die from the beginning of his/her journey he/she might've reacted differently (including perhaps sparing Loghain instead of simply killing him.)

 

Has nothing to do with precognition.

[Tommy6860]

True.  Or, when the Warden says:

 

He just happens to be dead-on in his suspicion of Morrigan and Flemeth.

 

True.  Or, when the Warden says:

 

He just happens to be dead-on in his suspicion of Morrigan and Flemeth.

 

That's true as well, but Alistair was like that with Morrigan from the very first time we encounter her in the Korcari Wilds looking for the GW treaties. When I think about it, Alistair has no more reason to be anymore suspicious in the juicy gossip dialogue, than he was at the first Morrigan encounter, there's not much else he knows about her,  especially considering Flemeth and Morrigan saved him and the GW. Only when Morrigan asks the GW to kill her mother and especially at the DR, asks her/him to get Alistair to perform the DR with her, should there arise more of a suspicion. In the JG dialogue, the only reply Alistair actually likes from the GW is when s/he says, "I don't have to like her, she's useful" . What's really interesting when talking about suspicion, in the dialogues of the GW with Morrigan and Alistair, Alistair is a bit more reticent when trying to get him to be a bit more expository about himself than Morrigan is, yet he holds her in suspicion. Unless you really pry into him with second and third questions. does he cave in to giving answers. This does not however make him evil, just personal to himself.

[kalasaurus]

That's true as well, but Alistair was like that with Morrigan from the very first time we encounter her in the Korcari Wilds looking for the GW treaties. When I think about it, Alistair has no more reason to be anymore suspicious in the juicy gossip dialogue, than he was at the first Morrigan encounter, there's not much else he knows about her,  especially considering Flemeth and Morrigan saved him and the GW. Only when Morrigan asks the GW to kill her mother and especially at the DR, asks her/him to get Alistair to perform the DR with her, should there arise more of a suspicion. In the JG dialogue, the only reply Alistair actually likes from the GW is when s/he says, "I don't have to like her, she's useful".

There's that.  Alistair has been suspicious of Morrigan since the beginning, in part because of her being an apostate/Witch of the Wilds:

 

Alistair: Morrigan... do you trust her?  Think about it... maybe Flemeth sent her with us for some other reason than she said?

Warden: You're probably right.

Alistair: And you're just letting her follow us? An apostate and Maker-knows-what else?

Warden: Your Templar training is showing.

Alistair: It is not!  Ok... maybe you're right.

 

But he has a growing dislike of Morrigan from her general taunting of him that also colors his perception of her.  So, yeah, he's extremely biased but happens to be correct, at least in that.

 

 What's really interesting when talking about suspicion, in the dialogues of the GW with Morrigan and Alistair, Alistair is a bit more reticent when trying to get him to be a bit more expository about himself than Morrigan is, yet he holds her in suspicion. Unless you really pry into him with second and third questions. does he cave in to giving answers. This does not however make him evil, just personal to himself.

Yeah, Alistair keeps his secrets too, though his timing in revealing them is better (well, only if you bring him to Redcliffe ).  He did tend to deflect a lot on his past.  When asked, he says he kept his birthright a secret because he wanted the Warden to like him as Alistair, not the bastard prince.  Morrigan keeps her secrets for different reasons.  Interestingly, when doing the Dark Ritual with Alistair, she'll be surprised when Alistair brings up the child, knowing very well it would make him less likely to agree:

 

Warden: Alistair has agreed to your...request.

Alistair: Wait.  I want ask about this child.  The one you want.

Morrigan:  Interesting.  Honesty wouldn't have been my first choice

[AlanC9]

She doesn't tell the warden because she wants him/her unbalanced so they'll be more inclined to do her offer to begin with. If the PC had know he/she was gonna die from the beginning of his/her journey he/she might've reacted differently (including perhaps sparing Loghain instead of simply killing him.)
 
Has nothing to do with precognition.

Unbalanced? You'd better walk me through that. I have no idea what you mean there.

And again, how would Morrigan have any idea that making Loghain a Warden would be an option? (We could talk about recruiting lots more people into the Wardens besides Loghain, but that just points out a plot hole that I'd rather leave unexamined.)

[Ryzaki]

Unbalanced? You'd better walk me through that. I have no idea what you mean there.

And again, how would Morrigan have any idea that making Loghain a Warden would be an option? (We could talk about recruiting lots more people into the Wardens besides Loghain, but that just points out a plot hole that I'd rather leave unexamined.)

 

Just learning that no matter what he/she does there's a good chance he/she or someone they  care about will have to die to end the blight. It has to do with emotional state and vulnerability.

 

It's irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Morrigan knowing Loghain becoming a warden is an option I don't even know why you keep bringing it up. It has to do with the warden not knowing information that's pretty damn vital to the reason why he/she'll often choose to do the DR in the first place. Information that if he/she had known when Riordan did his whole "we should make him a warden" tidbit might've chosen differently.

[Iakus]

Leliana losing it I can understand, but Wynne? Same thing at the Circle, where she goes ballistic if you let Morrigan goad her. Seems out of character. Only an utter moron could believe the Chantry propaganda about apostates and blood magic to such extent that the reaction is visceral instead of reasoned. By the way, does anyone know of a mod that restores the cut parts where blood magic is the casus belli?

 

She is bound to a Spirit of Faith...

[AlanC9]

Just learning that no matter what he/she does there's a good chance he/she or someone they  care about will have to die to end the blight. It has to do with emotional state and vulnerability.
 
It's irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Morrigan knowing Loghain becoming a warden is an option I don't even know why you keep bringing it up. It has to do with the warden not knowing information that's pretty damn vital to the reason why he/she'll often choose to do the DR in the first place. Information that if he/she had known when Riordan did his whole "we should make him a warden" tidbit might've chosen differently.

If you think making Loghain a Warden is irrelevant, why did you just bring it up yourself? In the same paragraph where you said it was irrelevant, even.

[Ryzaki]

If you think making Loghain a Warden is irrelevant, why did you just bring it up yourself? In the same paragraph where you said it was irrelevant, even.

 

The relevance is the Warden's knowledge of the whole death thing (which would in my warden's case effect them sparing Loghain). Not Morrigan knowing Loghain can be made a warden. That's what's irrelevant Morrigan doesn't need to know about Loghain.

 

This is not complicated.

 

Warden knowing about death beforehand - maybe comes to term with his/her upcoming death, maybe sees Loghain as a chance to avoid it (and not do Morrigan's ritual), hell maybe distances themselves from Alistair because they make him the sacrificial lamb.

 

On the other hand having this sprung up the night before they march on the archedemon leaves them far more vulnerable and in my warden's case desperate for an out which is exactly what Morrigan's banking on.

[AlanC9]

Hey.... before I keep playing.... we all know that this is a B.S. topic, right? The real reason Morrigan didn't spill the beans before the Landsmeet is for the drama, of course. The Landsmeet would be far less interesting if we knew what was coming up.

[Ryzaki]

It's quite in character for her not to say anything as it would have ruined her plans if the warden knew it was coming ahead of time and say decided to head to Orlais (or recruit Loghain, her arguement in that scenario is really really weak like really "but the glory!" lol like Loghain's really going to get more glory than the warden in that scenario and "but he might die before you make it there!" so might I lady) and such.

[Ryzaki]

Also replaying the Landsmeet. Riordan's a damn moron. The PC can flat out go "You want to make him a warden why?" and all that ****** says is there's compelling reasons to want more >:|

[kalasaurus]

(or recruit Loghain, her arguement in that scenario is really really weak like really "but the glory!" lol like Loghain's really going to get more glory than the warden in that scenario and "but he might die before you make it there!" so might I lady) and such.

 

Yeah, I found her arguments for the DR with Loghain to be pretty weak too.  Her additional "he will obey you" argument is the disturbing icing on the cake.

 

Warden: Do you think Loghain will agree to this?

Morrigan: Because he is bound to obey you he will comply.  Consider the alternative.

 

She clearly sees nothing wrong with "commanding" someone to have sex.  Of course, considering her upbringing that isn't surprising at all.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah, I found her arguments for the DR with Loghain to be pretty weak too.  Her additional "he will obey you" argument is the disturbing icing on the cake.

 

Warden: Do you think Loghain will agree to this?

Morrigan: Because he is bound to obey you he will comply.  Consider the alternative.

 

She clearly sees nothing wrong with "commanding" someone to have sex.  Of course, considering her upbringing that isn't surprising at all.

 

Good lord I never saw that.

 

Ewwwwwwww.

 

That's just so nasty. I couldn't do that to Loghain I can't even justify it with the we're doing it for wub~ that I can with Alistair.

[kalasaurus]

Good lord I never saw that.

 

Ewwwwwwww.

 

That's just so nasty. I couldn't do that to Loghain I can't even justify it with the we're doing it for wub~ that I can with Alistair.

 

Agreed.  The fact that she'd even say that made my opinion of Morrigan drop significantly, and I actually am a fan of her (despite my opinions on this topic).

[Ryzaki]

Agreed.  The fact that she'd even say that made my opinion of Morrigan drop significantly, and I actually am a fan of her (despite my opinions on this topic).

 

Yeah that...that's something.

 

Also the alternative? Loghain dying and the warden getting riches and fame? How exactly is that a bad thing? XD

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah that...that's something.

 

Also the alternative? Loghain dying and the warden getting riches and fame? How exactly is that a bad thing? XD

If you're metagaming and thus know that you're guaranteed that option, (and hate Loghain enough to want him dead but not enough not to recruit him) I suppose nothing.

[kalasaurus]

She'll say that Loghain will die the hero and not live as the villain he deserves to be.  Fair enough, but it really doesn't justify what she's trying to tell a female Warden.  Morrigan's really desperate for that Old God Baby.

[Ryzaki]

If you're metagaming and thus know that you're guaranteed that option, (and hate Loghain enough to want him dead but not enough not to recruit him) I suppose nothing.

 

is it really metagaming to figure the person who almost brought the country to the brink of ruin but died setting it right isn't going to be celebrated more than the living person who prevented that?

 

As for riches my HN assumed s/he'd be getting their stuff back that's not really metagaming since it was his/hers to begin with.

 

Also you don't have to hate the man to want him dead. I'm pretty sure he'd rather die than do the DR.

 

She'll say that Loghain will die the hero and not live as the villain he deserves to be.  Fair enough, but it really doesn't justify what she's trying to tell a female Warden.  Morrigan's really desperate for that Old God Baby.

 

Bah if my warden is recruiting him in the first place dying as a villian is pretty low on their priorities list. If they wanted that they'd cut his head off at the landsmeet (and most of them do D: ) The ones that spare him are pretty "even you lowly of value might still be useful" mindset (and so far that's a whooping one of my wardens. But I might as well tweak the rest since I'm changing my canon).

 

But yeah she wants that OGB pretty bad which is why I love saying no

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

is it really metagaming to figure the person who almost brought the country to the brink of ruin but died setting it right isn't going to be celebrated more than the living person who prevented that?

 

As for riches my HN assumed s/he'd be getting his stuff back that's not really metagaming since it was his/hers to begin with.

No, it's metagaming to be so sure that Loghain is going to live long enough for the cause of death you need to kill him to kick in. Especially if you make a habit of dragging Wynne around, which I always do because she's a spirit healer. (And in your hypothetical Wynne is the only mage you have left, so your presumably muggle Cousland is pretty much stuck there.)

[kalasaurus]

Also you don't have to hate the man to want him dead. I'm pretty sure he'd rather die than do the DR.

 

It's true.  Loghain would rather die than be party to the DR.

 

Loghain: Even so, none of this is necessary.  If Riordan fails, simply let me take the final blow.  Let me make amends for what I have done, if it comes to that.

Warden: Even if that's what you want, it may not be an option.

Loghain: That may be true.  I could die before ever reaching the dragon.  Still, this is unwise.  Do not ask me to be a part of it.

[Ryzaki]

No, it's metagaming to be so sure that Loghain is going to live long enough for the cause of death you need to kill him to kick in. Especially if you make a habit of dragging Wynne around, which I always do because she's a spirit healer. (And in your hypothetical Wynne is the only mage you have left, so your presumably muggle Cousland is pretty much stuck there.)

 

How is that metagaming? Your PC at this point may have stormed the deep roads with 4 people. I'm pretty sure he/she is pretty confident on getting a small group of people to a location. As far my PC is concerned Loghain's never going to be further than a stone's throw away from her. (Not to mention using the might not live long enough excuse works on the PC and Alistair as much as it does Loghain.) Nope don't use Wynne on muggle Cousland. (I don't like Wynne that much for one and for another her banter is meh). Stormed the deep roads with Alistair, Leliana (or shale depending on if I want her quest) and Oghren (and dog with the dog slot mod). I've done whole games without using mages.

 

You can go through the whole game without relying on a mage outside of Ostagar. So...stuck where exactly? Beside there's an army at your back (which may or may not include mages and hell it's probably wiser NOT to use the mages. Jerks killed me spamming damn fireball).

 

Confidence (even overconfidence) is not metagaming.

 

As far my warden is concerned s/he has 2 options not to die in that scenario, Riordan kills the archdemon or Loghain does it. If they both have the misfortune to die then yeah my warden's SOL but s/he felt that was unlikely (which it ended up being).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

How is that metagaming? Your PC at this point may have stormed the deep roads with 4 people. I'm pretty sure he/she is pretty confident on getting a small group of people to a location. As far my PC is concerned Loghain's never going to be further than a stone's throw away from her. (Not to mention using the might not live long enough excuse works on the PC and Alistair as much as it does Loghain.) Nope don't use Wynne on muggle Cousland. (I don't like Wynne that much for one and for another her banter is meh). Stormed the deep roads with Alistair, Leliana (or shale depending on if I want her quest) and Oghren (and dog with the dog slot mod). I've done whole games without using mages.

 

You can go through the whole game without relying on a mage outside of Ostagar. So...stuck where exactly? Beside there's an army at your back (which may or may not include mages and hell it's probably wiser NOT to use the mages. Jerks killed me spamming damn fireball).

 

Confidence is not metagaming.

That strikes me more as arrogance (at least on the part of the PC who's counting on this continuing to work through Denerim, since you as the player know this is going to work), but fair enough.

 

I probably could go the whole game without using a mage too. I just don't like to.

[Ryzaki]

That strikes me more as arrogance (at least on the part of the PC who's counting on this continuing to work through Denerim, since you as the player know this is going to work), but fair enough.

 

I probably could go the whole game without using a mage too. I just don't like to.

 

Arrogance, confidence either way it gets the job done.

 

Which is fair enough but it remains a very possible and viable way to play the game

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I thought it was made clear in previous posts.
 
It involves lack of consent. Consent is given in the DR; ergo, it is not rape. Peer pressure is not enough to define a sexual encounter as a sexual assault.

At least we get a straight answer. Thank you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arrogance, confidence either way it gets the job done.

 

Which is fair enough but it remains a very possible and viable way to play the game

Both are fair points.