579 réponses à ce sujet

[Xetykins]

Ive also done dao without a mage. I have not managed it in da2. Da:I will be hard without one I think.

[Ryzaki]

Ive also done dao without a mage. I have not managed it in da2. Da:I will be hard without one I think.

 

I might've done DA2 without a mage but mage Hawke makes the story so much better. So the only mage I mostly use ends up being Hawke XD

 

I might end up doing the same in DAI

[Han Shot First]

From the complete definition at your link:

 

1:  to restrain or dominate by force
2:  to compel to an act or choice
3:  to achieve by force or threat

 

And from dictionary.com (which uses the Random House dictionary):

 

1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition

2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion
3. to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.

 

Sorry, but it doesn't meet the definition of coercion.

 

Alistair was not compelled to do the DR. He was given a choice, and he made it.

 

Again, by that extremely loose and incorrect definition of coercion you and some others are using, panhandlers would be hauled in for robbery. Morrigan is no more guilty of rape than the guy who begs for change on a street corner is guilty of having robbed people who toss change in his cup. 

 

Do you know what coercion is in the legal sense? The panhandler would be guilty of coercion if he didn't just beg for change, but threatened to assault someone in order to frighten them into tossing change into his cup. *Then* he would be guilty of robbery.

 

Alistair wasn't threatened. He wasn't assaulted. And he wasn't coerced. Hence, no rape.

[Wulfram]

I'm not sure I can say consent is freely given when death is the consequence for refusing.

Though of course it's not Morrigan's fault, just the situation.

[theskymoves]

Sorry, but it doesn't meet the definition of coercion.

 

Alistair was not compelled to do the DR. He was given a choice, and he made it.

 

Again, by that extremely loose and incorrect definition of coercion you and some others are using, panhandlers would be hauled in for robbery. Morrigan is no more guilty of rape than the guy who begs for change on a street corner is guilty of having robbed people who toss change in his cup. 

 

Do you know what coercion is in the legal sense? The panhandler would be guilty of coercion if he didn't just beg for change, but threatened to assault someone in order to frighten them into tossing change into his cup. *Then* he would be guilty of robbery.

 

Alistair wasn't threatened. He wasn't assaulted. And he wasn't coerced. Hence, no rape.

 

You: "The definition of coercion (from the link I provided) doesn't meet the definition of coercion."

Me:         

 

Also, coercion, as defined in West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2 (bolding mine):

 

The intimidation of a victim to compel the individual to do some act against his or her will by the use of psychological pressure, physical force, or threats. The crime of intentionally and unlawfully restraining another's freedom by threatening to commit a crime, accusing the victim of a crime, disclosing any secret that would seriously impair the victim's reputation in the community, or by performing or refusing to perform an official action lawfully requested by the victim, or by causing an official to do so.

 

A defense asserted in a criminal prosecution that a person who committed a crime did not do so of his or her own free will, but only because the individual was compelled by another through the use of physical force or threat of immediate serious bodily injury or death.

[Tommy6860]

But he has a growing dislike of Morrigan from her general taunting of him that also colors his perception of her.  So, yeah, he's extremely biased but happens to be correct, at least in that.
 

 

I'll admit Morrigan is my favorite character in DA:O, but also that she is mean to Alistair to a point where it is just a bit much. But I keep in mind her whole upbringing, her penchant for looking at everything with practicality while having been raised by the cold-hearted Flemeth. She lived, until heading out with the GW, solely in the wilds and being subjected to stares of suspicion whenever she'd venture out of her comfortable living spaces. While she is mean, one line struck me was when the GW awakens after being rescued from  the Tower of Ishal . Morrigan asked the GW if s/he think she's being unkind saying Alistair is being childish after the GW askes if he's OK. The GW says s/he thinks it is unkind as his friends were killed at Ostagar. Morrigan then says, "And you think they would encourage his blubbering, if so, they are not the Grey Wardens the legends note". Anyway, I agree with you following posts here as well, nicely thought out.

[DarthGizka]

I'm not sure I can say consent is freely given when death is the consequence for refusing.
Though of course it's not Morrigan's fault, just the situation.

With the Dark Ritual as such, it's the situation. With Morrigan threatening to cripple the team by walking out, it's Morrigan. There's a difference.

 

"If you have sex with me I'll show you a safe path out of the minefield. If you don't then you're on your own."

[DarthGizka]

Alistair wasn't threatened. He wasn't assaulted. And he wasn't coerced. Hence, no rape.

 

Morrigan threatens to leave unless she gets her way, thus potentially crippling the team by depriving it of its crowd control and anti-mage artillery. Whether that threat is effective or not depends on the composition of the team. Since the big battle is the very the next day, there is no time to hire, train or equip someone else for these functions. For Alistair this could well mean mage-bashing duty, turning the battle from just another day in the trenches into a potential suicide mission.

An experienced player would know that enemy mages are mostly harmless once they have used whatever single dangerous spell they're allowed to have (for reasons of game balance, to allow templars and other deluded civilians to kill mages anyway) but that's metagaming. The team of my first Warden to face Morrigan's ultimatum would have been left without any dispel, mage neutralisation or crowd control whatsoever (Alistair walked, Zevran dead, Leliana melee without stealth, Wynne pure healer; no bombs, no balms, no spell resistance gear, no Andraste's Arrows), and so Morrigan's threat proved very effective indeed.

 

Alistair had already retired to his tavern in that playthrough, so it was the Warden and Loghain who were coerced. Same difference though.

[kalasaurus]

Sorry, but it doesn't meet the definition of coercion.

 

Alistair was not compelled to do the DR. He was given a choice, and he made it.

 

The point the others have been making is that Alistair made this choice under duress.

 

The legal definition of duress (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d082.htm)

Restraint or danger, actually inflicted or impending, which is sufficient in severity or apprehension to deprive a person of free choice, destroy his volition, or obtain consent only in form.

 

Again, by that extremely loose and incorrect definition of coercion you and some others are using, panhandlers would be hauled in for robbery. Morrigan is no more guilty of rape than the guy who begs for change on a street corner is guilty of having robbed people who toss change in his cup. 

 

Do you know what coercion is in the legal sense? The panhandler would be guilty of coercion if he didn't just beg for change, but threatened to assault someone in order to frighten them into tossing change into his cup. *Then* he would be guilty of robbery.

 

Alistair wasn't threatened. He wasn't assaulted. And he wasn't coerced. Hence, no rape.

 

Sure, if the beggar told the person that the only way to not die and have their soul annihilated is to give him all of their money.

 

Also robbery =/= rape.  Entirely different situations, entirely different consequences on people.  That's not to say you're implying they're equal in consequences, but the comparison is null.

[AlanC9]

Morrigan threatens to leave unless she gets her way, thus potentially crippling the team by depriving it of its crowd control and anti-mage artillery. Whether that threat is effective or not depends on the composition of the team. Since the big battle is the very the next day, there is no time to hire, train or equip someone else for these functions. For Alistair this could well mean mage-bashing duty, turning the battle from just another day in the trenches into a potential suicide mission.

Wait a minute. Does Alistair ever hear that Morrigan will leave the team if he doesn't do the DR? You can make this case for the Warden, I guess, but it's not like Morrigan would be in breach of contract if she resigned her position with the Warden's team.

I'm also not sure the concept of "duress" is useful here. While a contract requiring Alistair to perform the DR would likely be unenforceable, that doesn't get us anywhere.

[AlanC9]

Again, by that extremely loose and incorrect definition of coercion you and some others are using, panhandlers would be hauled in for robbery. Morrigan is no more guilty of rape than the guy who begs for change on a street corner is guilty of having robbed people who toss change in his cup.

Do you know what coercion is in the legal sense? The panhandler would be guilty of coercion if he didn't just beg for change, but threatened to assault someone in order to frighten them into tossing change into his cup. *Then* he would be guilty of robbery.

I think we need a better metaphor here. Morrigan's more like someone telling a guy on a sinking ship to get into a lifeboat. We need a reason why getting into the lifeboat is useful for the lifeboat operator, though. Maybe he gets paid by the government for every person he takes off?

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure I can say consent is freely given when death is the consequence for refusing.

Though of course it's not Morrigan's fault, just the situation.

Sure.

Mostly this debate serves to illustrate that "consent" is a fairly vacuous concept. The only reason it has any use at all is because a culture has conventions about what kind of conditions are appropriate, and what kind are illegitimate.

[Han Shot First]

You: "The definition of coercion (from the link I provided) doesn't meet the definition of coercion."

Me:         

 

Also, coercion, as defined in West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2 (bolding mine):

 

The intimidation of a victim to compel the individual to do some act against his or her will by the use of psychological pressure, physical force, or threats. 

 

Good thing that didn't actually happen. Alistair wasn't forced to do anything. He was given a choice and he gave consent of his own free will. Neither Morrigan or the player character Warden denied him a choice or used physical force, threats, or intimidation to compel the outcome they wanted.

 

You are using words like coerce and compel without understanding what they mean.

 

I can't believe that people actually believe what went on with the DR was rape. I hope none of you ever end up on a jury.

[Han Shot First]

 

 

Also robbery =/= rape.  Entirely different situations, entirely different consequences on people.  That's not to say you're implying they're equal in consequences, but the comparison is null.

 

You've missed the point.

 

What separates pandhandling from robbery is the lack of coercion. A panhandler, even one who is persistent, hasn't committed a robbery if no force, threats, or intimidation was used to get the money. It becomes a robbery once force, threats, violence, or intimidation is used to get money.

 

The lack of coercion is also what separates a consensual sexual encounter from sexual assault.

 

By the extremely loose definition of coercion being used by some here, panhandlers could be hauled in for robbery.

[ZerebusPrime]

Honestly, we never got a scene of Alistair retching afterward or going "Aaugh I can't believe I did that.  I need a bath.  And a lot of ale."  Is it really so wrong to think that just maybe the two characters who were at each other's throats the entire game long might have had an unintended romantic spark that neither would ever admit?  It could've been a DA2 style rivalry romance for all we know.

[Xetykins]

Honestly, we never got a scene of Alistair retching afterward or going "Aaugh I can't believe I did that.  I need a bath.  And a lot of ale."  Is it really so wrong to think that just maybe the two characters who were at each other's throats the entire game long might have had an unintended romantic spark that neither would ever admit?  It could've been a DA2 style rivalry romance for all we know.

IF Alistair was thinking of getting jiggy with any of the companions, it would be Leliana. Definitely not Morrigan. His "sure, hot" comment about Lili made me raise an eyebrow.

[kalasaurus]

IF Alistair was thinking of getting jiggy with any of the companions, it would be Leliana. Definitely not Morrigan. His "sure, hot" comment about Lili made me raise an eyebrow.

 

The codex in the Darkspawn Chronicles mentions a rumor that he and Leliana are lovers.  He's also kind of flirting with her in the banter about her past as an Orlesian Bard.  I could see them getting together.

[Xetykins]

The codex in the Darkspawn Chronicles mentions a rumor that he and Leliana are lovers.  He's also kind of flirting with her in the banter about her past as an Orlesian Bard.  I could see them getting together.

Indeed that cheeting bhasturd, I killz 'im!

[kalasaurus]

Indeed that cheeting bhasturd, I killz 'im!

 

D:

[DarthGizka]

I think we need a better metaphor here. Morrigan's more like someone telling a guy on a sinking ship to get into a lifeboat. We need a reason why getting into the lifeboat is useful for the lifeboat operator, though. Maybe he gets paid by the government for every person he takes off?

 

You forgot to mention the tiny detail of Morrigan demanding to have sex before she lets the Warden aboard.

 

In any case, lifeboats rarely have sideffects like setting the clock ticking on the next Blight or giving a woman with questionable mental makeup the opportunity to bend on 'old god' to her will. Perhaps you could fix your lifeboat by attaching a vial with a drug-resistant strain of the plague, with the vial's walls getting corroded at an unknown rate.

 

The Joining does not confer immunity against the taint, it only slows down the corruption process so that it takes years instead of days or hours. The end result is the same. Hence the father cannot bequest any immunity to the OGB, only a slowdown. With the OGB the difference is that it will be doing the Calling instead of hearing it. The slowing effect may not be worth much in any case, since codex says that the old gods are corrupted instantly when they are found by darkspawn.

 

Apart from that there's still the thing of Morrigan getting complete control of an old god. Since no one knows what an 'old god' actually is, no one can say what the consequences might be.

[Ryzaki]

And of course is the fact that do you really trust any child raised by her to grow up well adjusted? I mean really?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The lack of coercion is also what separates a consensual sexual encounter from sexual assault.

Emotional blackmail is a form of coercion, you realise.

[Tommy6860]

Emotional blackmail is a form of coercion, you realise.

 

Sometimes, the walls do not acknowledge. As a father of a daughter who told me when she was 17 that she experienced coerced sex, it tore it her up for a long time. She bore it to me and her mother because she had parents that didn't find fault in anything she expressed to us. I explained to her earlier on beforehand, the consequences of misplaced affections, so she understood her emotional state however much that did not alleviate her mindset at that time. It is rape, no matter how one wants to explain it away otherwise.

[KaiserShep]

Honestly, we never got a scene of Alistair retching afterward or going "Aaugh I can't believe I did that.  I need a bath.  And a lot of ale."  Is it really so wrong to think that just maybe the two characters who were at each other's throats the entire game long might have had an unintended romantic spark that neither would ever admit?  It could've been a DA2 style rivalry romance for all we know.

 

It's something that's fun to think about, but in all seriousness, neither of these characters strike me as the type to give the other the time of day under normal circumstances, Alistair in particular. He's a straight-laced type who reacts negatively to the type of callousness and brand of morality that Morrigan tends to approve of. While he is certainly not repulsed by Morrigan physically, I have no doubt that he does not consider her to be a very good person. If he talks to you about what you think of the companions, he will be perplexed if you express your fondness of Morrigan.

 

But anyway, it's not the repulsion against the person that's the issue, it's the whole mysterious magic that comes with it. It can taint the whole thing. The real saving grace here is that the death by soul transfer is totally out of Morrigan's control, and she's simply providing a way out, as sexily as possible. Under these circumstances, if it was me, I'd probably just jump at the chance, because I don't really have anything to lose, and I at least get laid before possibly being eaten by a tainted dragon, but I can't apply this standard to everyone. I would feel a bit weird pushing someone else into this situation though. This is really more of a problem with the female Warden, because she is helpless to assume responsibility herself, so she has to drag her comrade into it in order to save the both of them.

[kalasaurus]

You've missed the point.

 

What separates pandhandling from robbery is the lack of coercion. A panhandler, even one who is persistent, hasn't committed a robbery if no force, threats, or intimidation was used to get the money. It becomes a robbery once force, threats, violence, or intimidation is used to get money.

 

The lack of coercion is also what separates a consensual sexual encounter from sexual assault.

 

By the extremely loose definition of coercion being used by some here, panhandlers could be hauled in for robbery.

 

No, I understood the point you were trying to make.  I meant that it's a bad analogy.