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Poor Alistair having to do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan!


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#451
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Morrigan says lets have sex or I'm leaving.


Actually, no. She doesn't say she'll leave. She says she'll leave after the battle if you accept, but says nothing of her intentions should you refuse until you actually do. She only says that, if you refuse, you or the other Warden will die, and that you risk giving up all that delicious 'glory' of killing the archdemon if someone else takes the blow.

It's not Morrigan who coerces Alistair anyway, but the Warden at Morrigan's behest with such lines as "You love me, right?" and "You will have to trust me." when he voices open reluctance at the proposal.

If the DR goes forward it is because someone (whether the Warden, Alistair, or Loghain) consented to it.


Just curious. In your version of 'consent to sex is not rape', how many times must someone say 'no' or 'I don't want to' beforehand to disqualify an eventual 'yes'?

You have a very loose definition of coercion. Thankfully its a much looser one than the legal system.


...nah. Too easy.
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#452
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Oh I agree with you on that. Nor do people who are close friends must be interested in a romantic relationship with each other either.


Nooooooooo, don't get me started XD


I'm simply saying I didn't even see that much with Morrigan and Alistair that I could squint and see a foe yay relationship. Though I doubt anyone's arguing it's canon. I'm not.
 
And I'm someone who actually likes foe yay and teeth clenched teamwork in fiction :P


It can be good reading, yes. :)
 

Edit: And this has turned into a wall of text >_<
 
Edit 2: ...Yep still growing...I'm so sorry D:


Walls of Text happen. That just means I'll have to find time to read/respond later than right now. ;)
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#453
DarthGizka

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Actually, no. She doesn't say she'll leave.


Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now. This is... simply how it must be.


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#454
Han Shot First

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Just curious. In your version of 'consent to sex is not rape', how many times must someone say 'no' or 'I don't want to' beforehand to disqualify an eventual 'yes'?
 

 

 

 

 

Where in that did Alistair say no? 

 

That's right...he didn't.

 

 

...nah. Too easy.

 

You got nothing.

 

Alistair wasn't coerced. He gave consent. And it isn't rape.



#455
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now. This is... simply how it must be.


Is that bit of dialogue always said in that discussion, no matter what the PC (of bother genders) says? If so, then I stand corrected!

Where in that did Alistair say no?
 
That's right...he didn't.


So you're saying the target must explicitly say no?
 

You got nothing.
 
Alistair wasn't coerced. He gave consent. And it isn't rape.


He also had to have enjoyed it because Morrigan's hot, according to you.
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#456
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I find it funny that she appeals to "glory". As if I'm Cailan or something.


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#457
teh DRUMPf!!

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 Once I managed to convince Alistair with one of the lines not marked as (Persuade), and with a low-Coercion character iirc. I forgot what it was, but it essentially asks him if he'd prefer one of the three of you die instead; he reasons he wouldn't and agrees to do it. Take that FWIW.

 

OTOH, you can tell him exactly what the ritual will do (create an Old God baby) and he'll reject it so hard.



#458
Pateu

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Morrigan says lets have sex or I'm leaving.

 

Which is coercion.


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#459
Ryzaki

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I find it funny that she appeals to "glory". As if I'm Cailan or something.

 

Agreed. Especially if you've recruited Loghain and done the more underhanded ways of getting the people you need for the blight.

 

Ha. Glory.



#460
DarthGizka

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(Morrigan threatening to leave unless you do her bidding)
 

Is that bit of dialogue always said in that discussion, no matter what the PC (of bother genders) says? If so, then I stand corrected!


No. Morrigan walks out without any warning if she isn't in love with the Warden. Hence no threat, no coercion.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for her to walk away without so much as a peep, though, given the circumstances and also given that threatening to leave could be an effective way for her to get what she wants (depending on the composition of the team). If the OGB is so important to her then you'd expect her at least to try that threat as well instead of simply giving up and running off.
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#461
Ryzaki

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Would be better than that silly glory argument she uses. XD



#462
Jeffonl1

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Is that bit of dialogue always said in that discussion, no matter what the PC (of bother genders) says? If so, then I stand corrected!So you're saying the target must explicitly say no? He also had to have enjoyed it because Morrigan's hot, according to you.

Really we're still talking about this?

#463
Han Shot First

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Which is coercion.

 

You go out to dinner on a date. While at dinner your date offers to sleep with you but says she (or he) will leave, and you'll never see her (or him) again if you refuse. You agree because you can't bear to have them break the relationship off.

 

Could you then go to the police and successfully file a rape report?

 

Protip: No, you couldn't.

 

Again...your definition of coercion is much looser than the legal system. And thank the Maker for that, or else every prison would be full to bursting with beggars, used car salesmen, Jehovah's Witnesses, college kids soliciting for Greenpeace, ect, ect.



#464
DesstinyMaker

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If I could put this argument on a more practical plain, for a moment....

 

If anybody is trying to "force" anybody to do anything at this moment, it's the game developers. If you don't do the Dark Ritual, or convince Alistair to do it, then you lose Morrigan's wand in the final battle. Given that she's one of the most powerful characters in the game, this can be a pretty serious setback. I once tried to do the endgame on Hard in a playthrough where I intended to have Loghain do the Ultimate Sacrifice.  (Alistair was sulking on the throne at the time, grumbling at Anora.)  I had done most of the DLC content before we got Loghain, so I didn't have time to spec him properly, and.... I had to change the game setting, because our party couldn't get to the top of Fort Drakon.  The two companions I generally count on the most for a runthrough were both missing.



#465
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(Morrigan threatening to leave unless you do her bidding)
 
No. Morrigan walks out without any warning if she isn't in love with the Warden. Hence no threat, no coercion.


I wouldn't say this means no attempt at coercion from her at all (coercion directed at the Warden, that is), but the threat of leaving is absent, yes. I acknowledged this in that earlier post.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for her to walk away without so much as a peep, though, given the circumstances and also given that threatening to leave could be an effective way for her to get what she wants (depending on the composition of the team). If the OGB is so important to her then you'd expect her at least to try that threat as well instead of simply giving up and running off.


The writers probably didn't want to water down the effect that line would have on a romanced PC. 'Do this or I'll leave' (read: 'You love me, so do this or you'll regret it') is one of the oldest forms of emotional manipulation in the book, and theoretically more effective when directed at someone who cares.

If anybody is trying to "force" anybody to do anything at this moment, it's the game developers.


That's true, and some of these are more hamfisted than others. It's also true that some scenes come across in a completely different way to person A as opposed to person B, and the writer might well have had a different intent to both of these. :P

#466
Xetykins

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You go out to dinner on a date. While at dinner your date offers to sleep with you but says she (or he) will leave, and you'll never see her (or him) again if you refuse. You agree because you can't bear to have them break the relationship off.
 
Could you then go to the police and successfully file a rape report?
 
Protip: No, you couldn't.
 
Again...your definition of coercion is much looser than the legal system. And thank the Maker for that, or else every prison would be full to bursting with beggars, used car salesmen, Jehovah's Witnesses, college kids soliciting for Greenpeace, ect, ect.


But no one dies if you dont have sex ritual with your dinner date. In Alistair's case there is. And him and Morrigan was not in relationship to start with. Far from it.

I dont really care its my queen's survival in a game. Its something I wont be taking lightly irl.

#467
DarthGizka

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Again...your definition of coercion is much looser than the legal system. And thank the Maker for that, or else every prison would be full to bursting with beggars, used car salesmen, Jehovah's Witnesses, college kids soliciting for Greenpeace, ect, ect.

 
You seem to be focussing on the concept of forcible coercion, which used to be crucial for rape convictions in the past (along with evidence of physical resistance, in some states). Also, for a discussion among us DAO aficionados we can concentrate on right and wrong, instead of being bound by the letter of the law and the chances of a successful prosecution at some point in space/time.
 
From Consent & Coercion of the University of Michigan SAPAC web (emphasis original):
 

Coercion is a tactic used by perpetrators to intimidate, trick, or force someone to have sex with him/her without physical force. Perpetrators use many forms of coercion, threats, and manipulation to rape including alcohol and drugs.

...

Some examples of coercion are saying things like “If you loved me, you would”, “But we’ve had sex before”, and “Why are you so uptight?”


And Morrigan's threat to abandon the team - explicit if she is in love with the Warden, implicit otherwise - can imply bodily harm to the rest of the team in general and Alistair in particular, as several people have pointed out. Even the death of the party and total failure of the mission.

 

Hence I think that my minefield analogy fits the situation better than your panhandlers.



#468
Han Shot First

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But no one dies if you dont have sex ritual with your dinner date. In Alistair's case there is. And him and Morrigan was not in relationship to start with. Far from it.
 

 

Morrigan isn't responsible however for the deadly consequences of becoming a Warden, nor is she responsible for the Blight, or for the player character, Alistair, or Loghain becoming Wardens. She merely offers a way for them to avoid death, when short of running as far from Ferelden as possible, there are no other options. That the DR even saves a Warden's life is an unintended consequence. The goal of the ritual isn't to save a Warden; The purpose is to create a child capable of capturing the soul of an Old God. That it provides an 'out' for a Warden is only a happy side effect for those who choose to go that route.

 

She also gives any potential partner in the DR the right to refuse. That a refusal comes with deadly consequences can't be blamed on Morrigan, as there is no other known alternative (short of cowardice and desertion), and she is no way responsible for the potential participants becoming Wardens, the Blight, or the consequences of ending one.

 

Morrigan's offer can't be equated with death threats or intimidation. 

 

 
You seem to be focussing on the concept of forcible coercion, which used to be crucial for rape convictions in the past (along with evidence of physical resistance, in some states). Also, for a discussion among us DAO aficionados we can concentrate on right and wrong, instead of being bound by the letter of the law and the chances of a successful prosecution at some point in space/time.
 
From Consent & Coercion of the University of Michigan SAPAC web (emphasis original):
 


And Morrigan's threat to abandon the team - explicit if she is in love with the Warden, implicit otherwise - can imply bodily harm to the rest of the team in general and Alistair in particular, as several people have pointed out. Even the death of the party and total failure of the mission.

 

Hence I think that my minefield analogy fits the situation better than your panhandlers.

 

My issue is the word 'rape' being used. I think that is a gross exaggeration of what actually went on in the game.

 

The other day a college student soliciting for Planned Parenthood was asking passersby, "Excuse me sir (or ma'am), can you spare a minute for Womens Rights?" (or something similar) That could be considered slightly coercive by the University of Michigan's definition, since the implication is that if you ignore the solicitor and continue walking you don't have time for Womens Rights or Womens Health. Its a common tactic used by solicitors, no matter their particular cause. They try and guilt trip the person walking by into contributing or signing their petition.

 

Is that unethical? Perhaps. But if I were to have stopped and contributed some money out of guilt, I wouldn't be the victim of a robbery.

 

Was Morrigan's offer unethical? Is the Warden being unethical if they convince Alistair to participate in it? Perhaps...I think that is up for debate at least. But what went on clearly was not rape. There is a large divide between pressuring someone and raping someone, just as there is a large divide between a solicitor pressuring someone and robbing them.



#469
DesstinyMaker

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I think there are shades of grey here.  For a very large number of women, the implication that she will be harmed if she does not give in to a sexual request is really triggering, and that is what is being offered here.  "If Alistair doesn't have sex with me, one of you is going to die." Of course, Morrigan didn't actually set up the situation. It's not her fault the Warden who kills the demon must die, and it's not her fault that we've only got three Wardens. She's offering the only way out that she can - and Gaider has acknowledged that if the female Warden is Morrigan's friend, then that friendship does indeed become one of her motivations for offering to help.  The situation is triggering and icky for all three of them, but Morrigan's not really trying to force her sexual desires on another person, and she's not committing an act of violence. Rape, ultimately, is an act of violence. You might say that the situation is raping all three of them.

 

Alistair, given his druthers, would rather just kill the archdemon and die; he's generally submitting to the ritual to save the Warden.


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#470
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There's a side of me that finds it all amusing. Because the Alistair romance seems to be a bit.... on the fairytale side of things. Then Morrigan and the Landsmeet come in and rip it all apart, in one way or another. The fairytale isn't allowed to persist.

 

Only problem I have is that female players (particularly those who romance Alistair) feel the pain. No one else. For a male, I don't have much to lose. No matter what I do. Ritual, recruit Loghain, etc..



#471
DarthGizka

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My issue is the word 'rape' being used. I think that is a gross exaggeration of what actually went on in the game.


I agree with you there. The situation doesn't quite fit the stricter readings of the term 'rape', and especially not the legal ones. But I also think that Morrigan's threatening to walk out unless one of the male Wardens does her bidding comes close enough to the principle of the thing to warrant a discussion. If the gender roles were the other way around then we'd never hear the end of it. Interestingly, the fact that Morrigan does it for procreational purposes rather than recreational ones (i.e. sexual gratification) does not invalidate the rape angle.
 

Was Morrigan's offer unethical?


The offer of the DR, definitely not. Modulo the little problem that Gaider's own metaphysics would have the OGB go archdemon sooner or later.

Walking out on the team if she doesn't get her way, or threatening it, definitely.
 

Is the Warden being unethical if they convince Alistair to participate in it?


That's a thorny question, and the answer depends a lot on what particular form the 'convincing' takes. I.e., the degree to which manipulation - persuasion, coercion - is involved.



#472
Ryzaki

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There's a side of me that finds it all amusing. Because the Alistair romance seems to be a bit.... on the fairytale side of things. Then Morrigan and the Landsmeet come in and rip it all apart, in one way or another. The fairytale isn't allowed to persist.

 

Only problem I have is that female players (particularly those who romance Alistair) feel the pain. No one else. For a male, I don't have much to lose. No matter what I do. Ritual, recruit Loghain, etc..

 

Yeah feasting on fangirl's tears indeed.

 

Heck you can avoid it as a female by romancing Zev or Leliana (I hardened Alistair sent him off with anora got dumped then ran to leliana's bosom) recruited Loghain and killed him and that ending worked just fine. Got my HEA with no demon baby hanging over my head. But if you're romancing Alistair there's no avoiding something negative. Whether it's DR, Alistair stealing the archdemon kill or the PC doing it herself.

 

Heck a male can even still have a kid with Morrigan if he refuses the DR and has Loghain die instead. You lose the relationship of course and can't follow her into the mirror but she still ends up raising his kid :P



#473
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Maybe the fangirls like it though? I don't know. They still play the game apparently.

 

From my perspective though, it seems wrong for one group to experience more downsides.


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#474
Ryzaki

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Maybe the fangirls like it though? I don't know. They still play the game apparently.

 

From my perspective though, it seems wrong for one group to experience more downsides.

 

We're more used to being screwed over in general so we get over it faster. :P least that's how I am.

 

And yeah agreed. Hopefully they'll be no more sex for life BS because really it's just really squicky. And not even in the fun hard choices squicky way to me. Just in the really uncomfortable pulls me out of the game to go "really devs?" way.

 

And yeah my canon is totally hardened Ali + Anora as royalty Loghain is archie chow, and Leliana and the Warden run skipping into the sunset til the warden vanishes.

 

My city elves as much as I love them are no longer my canon...especially since I can't have my CE stay in character and not take off Loghain's head immediately.

 

(also I despise feeling like I'm forced into a ending. Which is partly why my first choice was to go "Oh screw this." and pick US).



#475
gottaloveme

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When I first played to the end my GW said no and Morrigan left turning into a wolf. I thought is she going to shapeshift into my GW and have Alistair anyway? But she doesn't change into people as she states in earlier dialogue.

 

I think this would have been a worse option than a simple statement of this is what I want and this is what has to happen for me to get it. The fact that it saves the wardens is merely by-the-way. (and by-the-way 'the loop in my hole? whaaaat).

 

Poor Alistair - having to do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan