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Poor Alistair having to do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan!

Débuté par cJohnOne , mars 18 2014 07:29

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#76
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 02:57

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I always thought that was stupid and made her claims of being a master manipulator laughable.

 

The whole game she's doing nothing but antagonizing Alistair despite the PC being female thus unable to give her what she wants. Sheer brilliance. Even if she somehow assumed they'd run into more Wardens (Maker knows why when Flemeth and Alistair make it clear they're the only wardens in Fereldan who survived and Loghain is going to block the ones from Orlais) you'd think she'd at least cozy up to Alistair to make sure she always had a backup plan.  But nope. Constant antagonizing to the point where she has to try to get the female PC (who might also not like her) to do her dirty work. Boggles the mind.

 

Actually, it shows a woman who knows she has the upper hand. I mean really, you know you have the one way that can save their lives. You may not know if they know that they have to die (which is why this is so weird because the assumption would be that they do know after they are wardens, that it's sort of the thing you tell them not long after the joining though alistair never knew for six months, which seems odd Duncan would leave that out), but again, she knows she has the upper hand. She doesn't have to be nice to him. She really isn't nice and can't be bothered to care. She has no need to manipulate him by pretending because the presumption is he will choose life. Most would. There's even an interesting part when leaving the dalish camp after you finish their quest where if she and alistair are in your party and in a romance (I think you might have to have already kissed to get this or maybe have had sex.... no, wait, I think you've had to have kissed) where she will ask him if it's allowed for wardens to have a relationship. He asks why it wouldn't be and then she points out that it could be a conflict of interest which makes no sense to him. She elaborates saying that if a warden had to choose between doing his duty or the one he loves (something like that) and he says that would never happen. There you see she is manipulating to a degree. She's probing to see where he will stand or what his attitude is, which from his response you can see he would choose the woman he loves because he's so defensive about it.

 

But I think it just points more to her character. She's not a nice person. She likes antagonizing him and wants that power over him. She could care less about him. He's a means to an end and here she probes him about it because if he won't do it to save himself he might do it to save the woman he loves. She's pretty much got them over a barrel. She doesn't need to even try to be nice. In all of the games people have played, how many times did they choose to NOT do the ritual? I've yet to not do it because I am not in the mood for a death ending. I suspect some do it for a character or two, but mostly people do it by far and large because it's preferable to death. That's why she doesn't bother manipulating someone she doesn't really like right off the bat. But in her defense, upon first meeting he was a total tool to her. All three of them were ridiculous. My first game I was sort of like 'okay I guess this witch of the wilds stuff is pretty bad but my god, grow up and don't be so antagonistically rude'.


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#77
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 02:59

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On most characters, I can't find a reason to kill Flemeth. She saved my life. Plus, she's funny.

 

And when you do it, Flemeth assumes the worst. That you're playing to Morrigan's "tune". I don't want to be reduced to something so pathetic. Maybe it makes sense if you romance her, but not otherwise.

 

I never even give her the grimoire anymore. Half the time it bugs and crashes. I basically just give her those thoughtful gifts and then ignore her the rest of the game until I use her for the ritual.


#78
Battlebloodmage
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 02:59

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I feel sorry for any guy being forced to have sex with an attractive woman.  It's borderline criminal.


#79
Ryzaki
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:06

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And it's not the first time either. Remember Flemeth? Sending the warden to kill the Witch of the Wilds of legends, one who may even be an old god, was a suicide mission. Believe me, I died enough the first time I faced her.

 

That one made sense at least. Antagonizing Alistair...really doesn't.

 

Though yes telling Flemeth screw this you're outta here or that you'll pretend to kill her are my fav choices.


#80
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:09

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I feel sorry for any guy being forced to have sex with an attractive woman.  It's borderline criminal.

 

If it was about sex, I wouldn't care. It's the baby that always bothered me. I've watched hundreds of horror movies. I know where this road leads. :D


#81
congokong
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:13

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@Starlitegirlx

 

I agree with what you said. Still, if I were her I'd cool down on the bitchiness. Why? Because being a ****** will lower her chances of success in her end-game. It might give her pleasure to treat Alistair like crap but is it worth the risk, if even a small one? And what if Alistair isn't romancing the female warden? And/or what if the warden isn't friends with Morrigan? Being a ****** won't help. Even though many would take her deal wardens are expected to sacrifice themselves. Hell, the joining is a death sentence itself. I can see many wardens refusing her ritual. Alistair (or Loghain) need convincing to do it.


#82
Ryzaki
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:15

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Actually, it shows a woman who knows she has the upper hand. I mean really, you know you have the one way that can save their lives. You may not know if they know that they have to die (which is why this is so weird because the assumption would be that they do know after they are wardens, that it's sort of the thing you tell them not long after the joining though alistair never knew for six months, which seems odd Duncan would leave that out), but again, she knows she has the upper hand. She doesn't have to be nice to him. She really isn't nice and can't be bothered to care. She has no need to manipulate him by pretending because the presumption is he will choose life. Most would. There's even an interesting part when leaving the dalish camp after you finish their quest where if she and alistair are in your party and in a romance (I think you might have to have already kissed to get this or maybe have had sex.... no, wait, I think you've had to have kissed) where she will ask him if it's allowed for wardens to have a relationship. He asks why it wouldn't be and then she points out that it could be a conflict of interest which makes no sense to him. She elaborates saying that if a warden had to choose between doing his duty or the one he loves (something like that) and he says that would never happen. There you see she is manipulating to a degree. She's probing to see where he will stand or what his attitude is, which from his response you can see he would choose the woman he loves because he's so defensive about it.

 

But I think it just points more to her character. She's not a nice person. She likes antagonizing him and wants that power over him. She could care less about him. He's a means to an end and here she probes him about it because if he won't do it to save himself he might do it to save the woman he loves. She's pretty much got them over a barrel. She doesn't need to even try to be nice. In all of the games people have played, how many times did they choose to NOT do the ritual? I've yet to not do it because I am not in the mood for a death ending. I suspect some do it for a character or two, but mostly people do it by far and large because it's preferable to death. That's why she doesn't bother manipulating someone she doesn't really like right off the bat. But in her defense, upon first meeting he was a total tool to her. All three of them were ridiculous. My first game I was sort of like 'okay I guess this witch of the wilds stuff is pretty bad but my god, grow up and don't be so antagonistically rude'.

 

That really only applies in a FemWarden and Alistair romancing each other scenario. Otherwise it's a non issue. Except Alistair is perfectly willing to die to stop the blight. The warden HAS to persuade him otherwise. So it really doesn't make much sense. In a Alistair and the Warden are friends/lovers sure but even then simply being friendly would only increase her chances not lower them.

 

But that's not the behavior of someone highly skilled in manipulating people. Needless antagonism that can potentially hinder your goals instead of taking ever avenue to increase your chances does not show master manipulation to me. A master manipulator shouldn't endanger his/her goal by needless antagonism. My preference in endings depends on gender really. If I'm playing a male I marry Alistair to Anora, spare Loghain and then throw him at the archdemon.

 

And yes he was being a tool. That's why you guilt him into apologizing. She just antagonizes and antagonizes (in fact my first playthrough was US cause I was so sick of her (and my HN felt he was the last of his line and was suicidal from the beginning of the game) and I found it really hard to believe she was anything other than deluded about her manipulation skills.

 

Not to mention being a warden is already a death sentence. The PC and Alistair might rather pay their dues sooner than later. It's not like a warden isn't going to slowly turn into a ghoul anyway.


#83
Ryzaki
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:18

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@Starlitegirlx

 

I agree with everything you said. Still, if I were her I'd cool down on the bitchiness. Why? Because doing so only will lower her chances of success in her end-game. It might give her pleasure to treat Alistair like crap but is it worth the risk, if even a small one? And what if Alistair isn't romancing the female warden? And/or what if the warden isn't friends with Morrigan? Being a ****** won't help. Even though many would take her deal wardens are expected to sacrifice themselves. Hell, the joining is a death sentence itself. I can see many wardens refusing her ritual. Alistair (or Loghain) need convincing to do it.

 

Yep. She's not just asking for sex. She's asking to spare the Archedemon's soul. Who knows what'll happen if it gets tainted again. It could potentially make all the sacrifices up to that point for nothing cause the blight restarts. And she wants to show herself as someone they can trust with such power but she constantly does the exact opposite.

 

My first reaction was US. Everything about DR smelled like bad news. Being offered by the most morally bankrupt person in the game? Check. Dubious consent issues? Yep. Potentially undoing everything I spent the whole game doing? Yeppers. Giving someone I wouldn't trust with a pet rat a child to raise? Yep. It was only til my second playthrough where I romanced Alistair that that changed and even then I'm really tempted to pick it anyway.


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#84
Riverdaleswhiteflash
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:21

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I feel sorry for any guy being forced to have sex with an attractive woman.  It's borderline criminal.

Being forced to have sex is borderline criminal, yes.

 

Edit: And since I only just realized how unfortunate that phrasing is, let me point out that I don't blame Alistair for any of this. Though I suppose it's not fair to blame Morrigan either, since one could argue she's doing the Wardens a favor. Any fate that Alistair can walk into because he's not dead is a better one than he had ten minutes prior.


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#85
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:23

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I've pretty much settled on a main Warden as Dalish. Who ends my DAO experience with stabbing Morrigan. Just for screwing with the People. B) I don't really care to see the results of anything else at this point (I know she isn't dead, but I'd like to know if it affected her).


#86
congokong
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:25

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Yep. She's not just asking for sex. She's asking to spare the Archedemon's soul. Who knows what'll happen if it gets tainted again. It could potentially make all the sacrifices up to that point for nothing cause the blight restarts. And she wants to show herself as someone they can trust with such power but she constantly does the exact opposite.

 

My first reaction was US. Everything about DR smelled like bad news. Being offered by the most morally bankrupt person in the game? Check. Dubious consent issues? Yep. Potentially undoing everything I spent the whole game doing? Yeppers. Giving someone I wouldn't trust with a pet rat a child to raise? Yep. It was only til my second playthrough where I romanced Alistair that that changed and even then I'm really tempted to pick it anyway.

True. Morrigan being a ****** weakens her position as mother of the year for an old god demon-baby.

 

And to be fair to Alistair, his first reaction to her was rather warranted. Morrigan and her mother were so shady. Morrigan shows up out of nowhere with all her rhetorical questions and then leads them to her "mother" who looks like something out of Hansel and Gretel.


#87
Ryzaki
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 03:33

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True. Morrigan being a ****** weakens her position as mother of the year for an old god demon-baby.

 

And to be fair to Alistair, his first reaction to her was rather warranted. Morrigan and her mother were so shady. Morrigan shows up out of nowhere with all her rhetorical questions and then leads them to her "mother" who looks like something out of Hansel and Gretel.

 

XD I mean just think of the teenaged angst explosion with all that power behind it. Good lord.

 

(Honestly I was kind of hoping her kid did the typical self made orphan thing but it looks like that's not the case in DAI sadly. Then again he's only like 10...)

 

It was a bit laughable how they're all like "Witch!" and my PC's the only one trying to persuade her to take him/her too or give him/her the treaties so they can go about their day though.


#88
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 04:00

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I agree with what you said. Still, if I were her I'd cool down on the bitchiness. Why? Because being a ****** will lower her chances of success in her end-game. It might give her pleasure to treat Alistair like crap but is it worth the risk, if even a small one? And what if Alistair isn't romancing the female warden? And/or what if the warden isn't friends with Morrigan? Being a ****** won't help. Even though many would take her deal wardens are expected to sacrifice themselves. Hell, the joining is a death sentence itself. I can see many wardens refusing her ritual. Alistair (or Loghain) need convincing to do it.

 

 

I agree with you in general but this was part of the writer's manipulations to make this nonsensical sex ritual be the least appealing thing specifically to female players because the male can have sex with her and be done with it or just say no and not care. If I could do the ritual as a female player I would rather than pimp out Alistair. So the intention there is to make it not pleasant. Had she been nice to him that might have been really nasty because as a female player you're now pimping him out to have sex with someone he seemed to get along with. What player would want to do that if they are in a romance with him? They clearly wanted people to choose to do the ritual. The whole story was crafted that way by not telling you about this whole death consequence until the very very very last moment which is absolutely illogical given that Duncan had six months to tell Alistair and apparently he didn't deem it important enough to mention, even with only a few wardens in Ferelden and a blight at their door.

 

But again, it was a deliberate choice to manipulate players to do the ritual or we would have known about the death consequence and had we known much sooner, like half way through the game or even from the beginning of the game when we are learning other things about being a warden (like that we die in 30 years from the taint) then by the time we get to the ritual a whole lot of people would have not done it because they knew and the ritual is not something most are comfortable with plus it's the end of the game so people might not totally care at that point. But instead we are misled into thinking life will go on when the blight is over (conversations with Alistair even put this in the front of your mind). Then last minute we discover someone has to die. Reminds me of the Ashley Kaiden situation in ME1 only this is far worse because it's you or Alistair and if you romanced Alistair then by now it is pretty serious and you don't want either of them to die. If you are a male character, you might do it for fun with Morrigan or maybe you just don't want your character to die. Again this one really hits the females worse than the men because romancing alistair makes it awkward and not pleasant.


#89
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 04:13

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Yep. She's not just asking for sex. She's asking to spare the Archedemon's soul. Who knows what'll happen if it gets tainted again. It could potentially make all the sacrifices up to that point for nothing cause the blight restarts. And she wants to show herself as someone they can trust with such power but she constantly does the exact opposite.

 

My first reaction was US. Everything about DR smelled like bad news. Being offered by the most morally bankrupt person in the game? Check. Dubious consent issues? Yep. Potentially undoing everything I spent the whole game doing? Yeppers. Giving someone I wouldn't trust with a pet rat a child to raise? Yep. It was only til my second playthrough where I romanced Alistair that that changed and even then I'm really tempted to pick it anyway.

 

And that's exactly what I'm saying the writers wanted or they would have told us about the death consequence before that last moment. Characters romancing Alistair get screwed over majorly in this game. You get lulled into that false sense of security that you can ride off into the sunset together and then they just keep grabbing the carpet out from under you. There are more ways it can go wrong than it can go right and of the ways it can go right there are really only two truly good ones in my opinion if I was going for happy ending with him which are not king and we head for the hills together as wardens after we stop the blight or marry him as a noble to become queen and he is king and we are happy together. Neither of those gives death as an option. And just for added bonus option of having the rug pulled out from under you should you be in a romance with Alistair and not do the ritual but decide you will slay the archdemon, you don't get that option. He will do it unless you leave him at the gate though some have said they are forced to take him. Not sure specifically when that happens but to some it does.

 

It's all about the writing aiming to get you to make the deal with her or we would have not had it sprung on us.


#90
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 04:25

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It's all about the writing aiming to get you to make the deal with her or we would have not had it sprung on us.

 

I wouldn't say they are aiming for that per se. It all depends on your characters' beginnings. Every Origin story has you either willfully joining or being conscripted to the Wardens. Some make it easier than others. Your path aims in these two ways from the start of the game to the finish. Everything revolves around loving or hating the Grey Wardens.

 

After your Origin story, in Ostagar, you're given subliminal type of messages further urging you one way or another. The game is biased towards you accepting your lot as Warden, but those who remain bitter will find something interesting about Loghain. Your given little chances here and there to express hatred of the Wardens as time goes on, just like he did. It finally culminates at the Landsmeet. If you're the type of character who bought into Alistair's "Oh, the poor Wardens.. poor Duncan dying at Ostagar" schtick, you'll probably be relishing the thought of killing Loghain by the time you meet him. For those who don't, you'll probably spare Loghain and bid Alistair farewell. Only those who loved the Grey Wardens will feel backed into a corner with the Dark Ritual. It's not as relevant otherwise.

 

You're right about Alistair's romance being screwy either way though.

 

edit: It should be mentioned that Flemeth is also pointing to some of this. She emphasizes Loghain a couple of times, and how you must deal with him. Then in Lothering, Morrigan suggests cutting to chase and going after Loghain right away. Both of them are likeminded with Alistair on Loghain, but for different reasons. The game is pretty heavy handed about encouraging you to think like this, all under the guise of honoring your Grey Warden "duty". Your real escape is to hate "duty" to begin with.


#91
Ryzaki
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 04:45

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And that's exactly what I'm saying the writers wanted or they would have told us about the death consequence before that last moment. Characters romancing Alistair get screwed over majorly in this game. You get lulled into that false sense of security that you can ride off into the sunset together and then they just keep grabbing the carpet out from under you. There are more ways it can go wrong than it can go right and of the ways it can go right there are really only two truly good ones in my opinion if I was going for happy ending with him which are not king and we head for the hills together as wardens after we stop the blight or marry him as a noble to become queen and he is king and we are happy together. Neither of those gives death as an option. And just for added bonus option of having the rug pulled out from under you should you be in a romance with Alistair and not do the ritual but decide you will slay the archdemon, you don't get that option. He will do it unless you leave him at the gate though some have said they are forced to take him. Not sure specifically when that happens but to some it does.

 

It's all about the writing aiming to get you to make the deal with her or we would have not had it sprung on us.

 

Yeah it's pretty harsh and lopsided in the favor of anyone that didn't romance Alistair. Even Morrigan romancers get their eventually resolution. But yeah you're stuck with a pretty hmmm ending if you romanced Alistair (and want to finish the romance to the end of the game).

 

Ah my PC leaves him behind if she's gonna kill herself. She figures he's the type to do something stupid. (either that or I use that mod where she uses force field on him and kills herself anyway cause your PC standing there like an idiot bothered the hell out of me).

 

It was a pretty cheap move (also the whole sex or death thing is where I went "really?") and Awakening having your PC raise from the dead somehow didn't help much either. Fixed it for DA2 at least though.


#92
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 05:00

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Just to add to my "hate duty" bit above, I think it's funny that it's the Sloth demon who entices you in the Circle quest. And wants you to forget Duty. It's so fitting, for my character at least. If there's one type of demon who could tempt me in this game world, it's Sloth.


#93
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 05:49

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Yeah it's pretty harsh and lopsided in the favor of anyone that didn't romance Alistair. Even Morrigan romancers get their eventually resolution. But yeah you're stuck with a pretty hmmm ending if you romanced Alistair (and want to finish the romance to the end of the game).

 

Ah my PC leaves him behind if she's gonna kill herself. She figures he's the type to do something stupid. (either that or I use that mod where she uses force field on him and kills herself anyway cause your PC standing there like an idiot bothered the hell out of me).

 

It was a pretty cheap move (also the whole sex or death thing is where I went "really?") and Awakening having your PC raise from the dead somehow didn't help much either. Fixed it for DA2 at least though.

 

Wait... you could play a character that died in Awakening? That's just... weird.


#94
Dutchess
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:02

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Wait... you could play a character that died in Awakening? That's just... weird.

 

Yep, you can import an US Warden and continue to play him/her. The game changes to the Dark Ritual setting.


#95
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:04

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Yep, you can import an US Warden and continue to play him/her. The game changes to the Dark Ritual setting.

 

I guess they did that in the case of people who wanted to play their dead warden, but since you can start a new character, you would think it would sort of not allow the import because you choose death.


#96
Ryzaki
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:06

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No I expected it to do what it should've done. Had my warden dead but his/her world state valid. Instead you're stuck with valid world state, or default with dead warden. Lame.

 

DA2 did retro fix it but still meh.


#97
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:08

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Yeah, I don't like it.

 

Even funnier is their Canon Warden is the Ultimate Sacrifice, but yet they still count an Orlesian Warden as part of the story too. You can't actually do this as a player. Not without mods at least (I can't on my Xbox). Basically, their own default state is unplayable.


#98
Riverdaleswhiteflash
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:11

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Yeah, I don't like it.

 

Even funnier is their Canon Warden is the Ultimate Sacrifice, but yet they still count an Orlesian Warden as part of the story too. You can't actually do this as a player. Not without mods at least (I can't on my Xbox). Basically, their own default state is unplayable.

I think they intend to fix this with the Keep.


#99
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Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:15

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I think they intend to fix this with the Keep.

 

I know.. and that's cool.. but I like experiencing things. Not going through a checkbox or whatever. I've always wanted to play an US with Awakening. My first Warden was US, but once the expansion came out, that went out the door.


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#100
Riverdaleswhiteflash
Posté 05 avril 2014 - 06:16

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I know.. and that's cool.. but I like experiencing things. Not going through a checkbox or whatever. I've always wanted to play an US with Awakening. My first Warden was US, but once the expansion came out, that went out the door.

Understandable.


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