Guest_StreetMagic_*
I don't see us as being pushed toward Duncan
"The blight demands sacrifice of all of us..."
"Forward.. we must always press forward.."
Vigilance, sacrifice, duty, honor.. getting killed by darkspawn. It's all there for you to embrace or not. Duncan symbolizes all of it. Everything Alistair wants the both of you to be is just that as well. And he will do it if you ultimately reject Morrigan or Loghain.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
"The blight demands sacrifice of all of us..."
"Forward.. we must always press forward.."
Vigilance, sacrifice, duty, honor.. getting killed by darkspawn. It's all there for you to embrace or not. Duncan symbolizes all of it. Everything Alistair wants the both of you to be is just that as well. And he will do it if you ultimately reject Morrigan or Loghain.
I guess I just don't really give it much thought. He's a bit full of his honor and sacrifice crap. I don't personally believe in such things so I see it as who he is and his opinions on things that I really don't care about. You meet people like this in life all the time. I've learned to ignore them in reality and in games. But I guess some players really hear that and it makes some kind of difference in how they feel. To me it's not that different from some religious zealot spouting off their nonsense.... tune it out as it's not my belief, it's their. I can ignore other people's beliefs easily enough. Others I guess seem to listen to them and it triggers reactions in them. I guess my time learning about buddhism rubbed off on me more than I thought because I kind of ignore Alistair and Duncan on these points and think 'yeah I'm here to kill darkspawn. You can be all proud of being a warden but I'm just here to get the job done without all the puffed up proud crap.'
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I guess I just don't really give it much thought. He's a bit full of his honor and sacrifice crap. I don't personally believe in such things so I see it as who he is and his opinions on things that I really don't care about. You meet people like this in life all the time. I've learned to ignore them in reality and in games. But I guess some players really hear that and it makes some kind of difference in how they feel. To me it's not that different from some religious zealot spouting off their nonsense.... tune it out as it's not my belief, it's their. I can ignore other people's beliefs easily enough. Others I guess seem to listen to them and it triggers reactions in them. I guess my time learning about buddhism rubbed off on me more than I thought because I kind of ignore Alistair and Duncan on these points and think 'yeah I'm here to kill darkspawn. You can be all proud of being a warden but I'm just here to get the job done without all the puffed up proud crap.'
There's all that, of course, but he represents something in the game in a real way. That's what they boil down to when I refer to them as symbols. They represent your last game options. He represents the ultimate sacrifice. Morrigan the ritual. Loghain the redemeer ending. They aren't just pushing you towards Morrigan.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Yeah, that happened for me too, but in my first playthrough. I didn't even care about this duty stuff from the start, and I jumped at the Dark Ritual right off the bat.
I never cared about the duty crap. I'm far more practical than that. Stop the blight. That's my job. Didn't tell alistair about how to kill the archdemon, then I'm not going to do it that way because that's the sort of thing you have to mentally prepare for. Really, it is. You don't spring that crap on me an hour before I'm off to do it and expect me to be okay with it. At that point Morrigan is my new best bud and much as I feel a bit bad about pimping Alistair out to her, fact of the matter is he'll have an orgasm then move on and we can be done with this blight and live to have some good times together, especially given that whole giving me a rose and telling me I hadn't had any of the 'good' experiences of being a warden. Well, I'd like to so go take one for the team Al. I'll pay you back for it. I promise. But I can't if one of us is dead, you know?
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
There's all that, of course, but he represents something in the game in a real way. That's what they boil down to when I refer to them as symbols. They represent your last game options. He represents the ultimate sacrifice. Morrigan the ritual. Loghain the redemeer ending. They aren't just pushing you towards Morrigan.
Ah yes. I wasn't thinking along those terms but you are correct.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Cool. I guess my overall point is simply that they set you on these 3 different paths, subtly, fairly early in the game. At least Duncan and Loghain's, they do. One is borne from duty, the other resentment maybe. Who knows. They work well that way though. Morrigan comes out of nowhere. There's little preparation for it like the other two.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
It really wasn't until now that I appreciate just how lame the female romancing Alistair experience must be here. First you have to get over whatever hurdle you might experience with Loghain.. if you deny his or your need for revenge, then things go sour for you with him. And if you get past that, then you have to deal with another hurdle with him sleeping with Morrigan.
I never experienced the game that way. Seems like everyone else gets one hurdle at the most (Loghain).
Yeah PC becomes game's chewtoy in that scenario. Only winning move is not to play 
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
It really wasn't until now that I appreciate just how lame the female romancing Alistair experience must be here. First you have to get over whatever hurdle you might experience with Loghain.. if you deny his or your need for revenge, then things go sour for you with him. And if you get past that, then you have to deal with another hurdle with him sleeping with Morrigan.
I never experienced the game that way. Seems like everyone else gets one hurdle at the most (Loghain).
That's why I say it's sexist. Because as a woman, Alistair is pretty much thrown at you as he is the only romance option right off for straight women. Zev doesn't come up until after you finish the first main quest and while he pretty much goes right toward romance, you will have had lothering and the main quest plus a few camp times to talk with alistair. So likely you are already on that path. By the time you hit the landsmeet you've been charmed by Alistair and get a sense he will be around. There's a whole feeling to it that it's going to endure as that is how Alistair comes across. You don't ever doubt that. The game lulls you into a false sense of security whereas Zevran is moving around. He's on the run. You don't really know the deal with him. It doesn't come with the sort of sense that he will be around or a kind of certainty that you get with Alistair.
Then you get hit with the landsmeet... king or not? Harden or not? These things all have ways to screw up the relationship. Loghain, king if you are not a noble human female, even if you are a noble female letting him kill loghain will cause him to dump you because of the taint, a very odd way to throw that in as it really doesn't have logic to it... or if you let him fight loghain and don't know what can happen, you are screwed and I've read of players that would go back into old saves just to fix that one. In fact, I've read of players going back to old saves after each situation just to try to salvage this romance. And there are so many ways it can go wrong that without a guide odds are you might not end up with him. Just one of the many reasons I hate the landsmeet. Some BS scenario designed by a sexist man who thought all of this would be fun for gamers.
This is why I just keep Alistair away from the throne. I lead, I make the decisions so I fight loghain. I kill him because I am loyal to Alistair enough that I will indeed kill the ass who tried to have us killed. Then I send him to morrigan. He might hate it now but later on he'll be glad he endured it as we ride off into the sunset and do whatever we please when we're not rebuilding the wardens. Best ending in the world and all you have to do is kill one traitor, steer away from political maneuvering, and make a deal with the devil you only barely know....
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I don't think Alistair's backstory is too complicated. To me, everything about him revolves around the last six months of his life. Becoming a Grey Warden. Alistair is more about Duncan than it is Alistair. Everything else is due to the player's mechinations. They're the ones who want scenarios will you and him can be king or queen and live happily. But none of that is what Alistair wanted. He's not that complicated. He's got a deathwish, if left to his own devices. He signals early on that he wished he died with Duncan. And that's what he'll do if you embrace his values. If you hate Loghain like he does, and hate Morrigan like he does, then it's all Ra-ra-ra "Grey Wardens!", whereby Alistair happily kills himself.
I'm always tempted to play as the guy who does everything right (besides, you get rewarded the best that way.. both in DAO and in your imports), but I never have a good mental reason to do so. It starts to break my own immersion... because these type of characters start seeming like Saints at times. And then I have to wonder what kind of backstory created this person to become such a saint. And then I get tired of thinking about it and delete the character. lol
I know what you mean. In Mass Effect I made many saints (pure paragons on big decisions) where no one non-essential died. It was fun at the time but left no lasting impact and were deleted afterwards to help my PS3 load the main menu faster. My canon Shepard was one who wasn't perfect and much went wrong. It's a character I've actually reflected on after the story was over.
In Dragon Age my first blind playthrough was a power-hungry mage. I lost most of my companions but it was interesting. On a later playthrough I still tried to get some companion killed. Someone should die, even if I'm playing a less evil character. I intentionally brought Shale when I chose to keep the anvil to make this happen. Would you want to read a story where no characters died? Maybe a children's book.
Same made me fear abit that DR would become the "canon" ending thankfully that "DR always happens" thread put those fears to rest.
I don't hate the wardens. Duncan's stupid over the top secrecy was the actual problem. I'm pretty sure most wardens would've been able to persuade Alistair to tolerate Loghain long enough for them to throw him at the archedemon. (One would also think Riordan would've brought it up when he saw how adament the wardens can be to *not* recruit Loghain but for some reason common sense goes flying out the window so we can get the DR dilemma). And of course the lack of ability to grab a few Warden recruits for backup scenarios since there's so few of them.
I notice they cherry-pick when people know the warden secrets too. During the Landsmeet Anora mentions the joining often being fatal in front of everyone. How did she know? And now everyone knows. I'd never believe the wardens could keep such things a secret anyway. Word would get around eventually that the joining is fatal and that wardens are truly needed to stop blights. Otherwise there would be too many Loghains who don't know why they exist.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I know what you mean. In Mass Effect I made many saints (pure paragons on big decisions) where no one non-essential died. It was fun at the time but left no lasting impact and were deleted afterwards to help my PS3 load the main menu faster. My canon Shepard was one who wasn't perfect and much went wrong. It's a character I've actually reflected on after the story was over.
In Dragon Age my first blind playthrough was a power-hungry mage. I lost most of my companions but it was interesting. On a later playthrough I still tried to get some companion killed. Someone should die, even if I'm playing a less evil character. I intentionally brought Shale when I chose to keep the anvil to make this happen. Would you want to read a story where no characters died? Maybe a children's book.
I wouldn't mind the children's book either, as long as I have good reason for it.. and it's in the origin story or backstory somehow. Every saint has a reason why they became so compassionate. It's just hard to swallow if you're automatically doing it, with no rhyme or reason or depth behind your decisions. People aren't that good, on average.
I think Gaider recognized the propensity for the player to maximize benefits and "do everything right", and so changed course a bit in DA2. He forces you to swallow some bigger pills. Anders, Merathari, the whole problem of the mage/templar conflict, etc..
I wouldn't mind the children's book either, as long as I have good reason for it.. and it's in the origin story or backstory somehow. Every saint has a reason why they became so compassionate. It's just hard to swallow if you're automatically doing it, with no rhyme or reason or depth behind your decisions. People aren't that good, on average.
I think Gaider recognized the propensity for the player to maximize benefits and "do everything right", and so changed course a bit in DA2. He forces you to swallow some bigger pills. Anders, Merathari, the whole problem of the mage/templar conflict, etc..
Even if the warden's saint-status was warranted, it's too convenient for me that your entire crew of 10 survive with no casualties in something as threatening as the blight. Even if they ironically die at your hand rather than a darkspawn, I feel there should be casualties.
Everyone living involves meta-gaming (cheating) to some extent anyway. I can't see a rational person seriously recruiting Sten or Zevran based on what you know at the time. And like in Mass Effect, the decisions that are obviously paragon work out best with nothing going horribly wrong. (Ex: leaving a possessed Connor in the castle while you run to the Circle, saving the mages despite the risk of abominations, siding against Zathrian to break the curse and still getting the dalish, destroying the anvil and still getting the paragon crown).
Even if the warden's saint-status was warranted, it's too convenient for me that your entire crew of 10 survive with no casualties in something as threatening as the blight. Even if they ironically die at your hand rather than a darkspawn, I feel there should be casualties.
And like in Mass Effect, the decisions that are obviously paragon work out best with nothing going horribly wrong. (Ex: leaving a possessed Connor in the castle while you run to the Circle, saving the mages despite the risk of abominations, siding against Zathrian to break the curse and still getting the dalish, destroying the anvil and still getting the paragon crown).
Everyone living involves meta-gaming (cheating) to some extent anyway. I can't see a rational person seriously recruiting Sten or Zevran based on what you know at the time.
I didn't feel particularly weird about recruiting Zev or Sten, myself.
Personally, those are exactly the kind of guys I want to go to war with. I don't look for boy scouts. I look for nasty, hit-you-in-the-mouth types. Sten even voiced an interest in helping fight the Blight/Darkspawn. Zevran? I know a good deal when I see it: I give him protection from the 'Crows (which he both wants and needs), I get an athletic elven melee-rogue. Done deal.
I was actually more unsure about Leliana than those two! Wasn't sure she'd fit in, given her attempt to talk me out of killing Loghain's goons. I figured she was worth the risk, though, since she: (a) could fight; (
wanted to assist the cause real badly; © was easy on the eyes. I would argue she turned out to be more of a snake than them, too, seeing as you only later discover what she really is: a longtime spy trained to use deception and charm to manipulate others. With Sten and Zevran, you at least knew what you were dealing with ("the devil you know," so to speak).
siding against Zathrian to break the curse and still getting the dalish,
Hmm. I never thought about it like that.
My Warden was Dalish himself, though, and Zathrian's curse not only victimized other Dalish, but his plan (taking Witherfang's heart) was also not even a permanent solution to the problem, whereas him lifting the curse would have been.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Even if the warden's saint-status was warranted, it's too convenient for me that your entire crew of 10 survive with no casualties in something as threatening as the blight. Even if they ironically die at your hand rather than a darkspawn, I feel there should be casualties.
Everyone living involves meta-gaming (cheating) to some extent anyway. I can't see a rational person seriously recruiting Sten or Zevran based on what you know at the time. And like in Mass Effect, the decisions that are obviously paragon work out best with nothing going horribly wrong. (Ex: leaving a possessed Connor in the castle while you run to the Circle, saving the mages despite the risk of abominations, siding against Zathrian to break the curse and still getting the dalish, destroying the anvil and still getting the paragon crown).
Yeah, they needed to work on better incentives for those other choices. For example, I wouldn't hesitate to side with Zathrian if they battleaxe he gives was tier 7 instead of tier 6. Better yet, say it was Garahel's axe. Then I'm sold. How many werewolves shall I kill? 
I didn't feel particularly weird about recruiting Zev or Sten, myself.
I emphasize: I cannot see a rational person recruiting them. I'll paste something I put in another thread regarding those two.
---
I shouldn't have to feel like an idiot when I add companions, but that's just how I feel if I recruit those two.
On my first blind playthrough I thought I must have been missing something when recruiting Sten became a quest. I had made no comment of recruiting him and yet there it was in the quest log. Additionally, Morrigan (whose advice you should never take) had apparently no understanding of the word prisoner and like Jowan wanted Sten released just because he was caged. My first response to a giant man in a cage who butchered a family was to get away from him; not bring him with me and let him sleep near me at night. So I kept talking to the villagers thinking that surely I missed something. Surely Bioware was going to give me some rational reason to recruit this monster. But no. He's a very literal, unfriendly giant who killed children with his bare hands. So I ran away from Lothering leaving him in that cage awaiting the darkspwan horde.
Zevran, aka Puss n Boots, at least gave a reason to recruit him. Of course it was still absurd. He could easily slit my throat at camp, run in the woods, then laugh over drinks with his friends over how stupid the Grey Warden was that they not only spared him but recruited him. And the Crows would never know the first attempt wasn't successful; assuming he was telling the truth that they indeed kill those who fail out of principle. Apparently it's a lie since he can rejoin the Crows later in the game. Zevran will also break his oath to you by doing this; not surprising since he breaks his oath to the Crows by joining you in the first place.
In conclusion, recruiting these two when role-playing is absurd. Bioware should have introduced them differently.
Apart from the Anvil thing these problems do not exist (breaking the curse is not detrimental to the Dalish; once Uldred is dead the abominonation threat is no higher than normal) or exist only because the game does not allow the player to act sensibly (like leaving the team to contain Connor while the Warden goes to fetch Irving; during the Battle of Denerim that was suddenly possible).
You think so?
If Zathrian had not relented when near death after you sided against him, everyone would still be cursed including the dalish. As long as they were cursed they were unable to join the war. That's the whole point of curing them. You were taking an idealistic stand by turning against your blight ally for what you believe is right. You have no idea at that point that the werewolves could ever be allies either.
The demon inside Connor was responsible for undead hordes attacking Redcliffe at night. Are you to assume the possessed Connor would just play with his toys as the Warden spends days running to the Circle and back. And what of Ferelden? How many darkspawn are killing people while the Warden spends all this time formulating a ritual that may save one child. And if it fails the mage going into the fade is dead and Connor will have to be slaughtered anyway.
There wasn't any way to know if any of the remaining mages were abominations. Gregoir takes Irving at his word unless you persuade him to do otherwise. It could've turned out they were still possessed and would slaughter the templars shortly after you left. I have no idea what measures they take to discover who is an abomination but just letting the remaining mages who had been locked away with other abominations be free is a big risk.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
To be fair, I think both Lothering companions (Leliana and Sten) are introduced strangely. Leliana doesn't have the bad reputation, but her intro is a bit abrupt and rushed. I guess she's meant to seem crazy though.. and your Warden is seen as crazy if you recruit her ("perhaps your skull was cracked worse than mother thought"). Zevran's recruitment appears in a similarly abrupt manner. Morrigan, Wynne, and Oghren have a slower set up.. you meet them.. but don't group with them until later. I think they were done better, narratively speaking.
It really wasn't until now that I appreciate just how lame the female romancing Alistair experience must be here. First you have to get over whatever hurdle you might experience with Loghain.. if you deny his or your need for revenge, then things go sour for you with him. And if you get past that, then you have to deal with another hurdle with him sleeping with Morrigan.
I never experienced the game that way. Seems like everyone else gets one hurdle at the most (Loghain).
Excellent summary. I played female a few times but moved to the male warden. It is much easier to play a male warden. I found all the ways to get pass the hurdles as the female but just decided i didn't want to do that anymore. Too much work to remember all the lines you have to hit just to get the ideal ending.
There's all that, of course, but he represents something in the game in a real way. That's what they boil down to when I refer to them as symbols. They represent your last game options. He represents the ultimate sacrifice. Morrigan the ritual. Loghain the redemeer ending. They aren't just pushing you towards Morrigan.
Interesting thought thanks for sharing. I really like your take on this.
To be fair, I think both Lothering companions (Leliana and Sten) are introduced strangely. Leliana doesn't have the bad reputation, but her intro is a bit abrupt and rushed. Zevran's recruitment appears in a similarly abrupt manner. Morrigan, Wynne, and Oghren have a slower set up.. you meet them.. but don't group with them until later. I think they were done better, narratively speaking.
i can see myself recruiting Leliana much easier then Sten and Zevran. Sure, she may or may not be a little crazy. There are a lot of religious people who claim to have visions of god speaking to them. That's not enough for me to believe she's a threat to me. Emphasiis on those last few words. That's why I recruit Shale, Morrigan, and Leliana. They're not saints but there's nothing to indicate they'll kill me in my sleep. Zevran has tried to kill me already. He's an assassin. Assassins' morality is extremely questionable if non-existent. There's no way to know if he'll poison my food, slit my throat, or just run into the woods at night if I spare him. Sten's impression is that he's unstable. A person who murders children with his bare hands and regrets it reminds me of a husband who beats his wife and keeps apologizing for it. Those types of people are very dangerous. What if you have an argument with him and he kills you with his greatsword in a brief rage; followed by feeling sorry about it? That was my first impression of him and why I didn't recruit him before meta-gaming.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
i can see myself recruiting Leliana much easier then Sten and Zevran. Sure, she may or may not be a little crazy. There are a lot of religious people who claim to have visions of god speaking to them. That's not enough for me to believe she's a threat to me. Emphasiis on those last few words. That's why I recruit Shale, Morrigan, and Leliana. They're not saints but there's nothing to indicate they'll kill me in my sleep. Zevran has tried to kill me already. He's an assassin. Assassins' morality is extremely questionable if non-existent. There's no way to know if he'll poison my food, slit my throat, or just run into the woods at night if I spare him. Sten's impression is that he's unstable. A person who murders children with his bare hands and regrets it reminds me of a husband who beats his wife and keeps apologizing for it. Those types of people are very dangerous. What if you have an argument with him and he kills you with his greatsword in a brief rage; followed by feeling sorry about it? That was my first impression of him and why I didn't recruit him before meta-gaming.
You make good points. I've talked about them before.. I wish it could've been done differently too.
On the plus side, they didn't have these kind of intros again. Awakening and DA2 narrative flow much better imo.
You make good points. I've talked about them before.. I wish it could've been done differently too.
On the plus side, they didn't have these kind of intros again. Awakening and DA2 narrative flow much better imo.
Yes, I enjoyed agreeing with each other on the "Which Warden did you pick to romance Morrigan" thread. Good times.
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