579 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

You're assuming that Zathrian is being rational. Considering he's plagued descendants of people who harmed his family for centuries shows rational is the last thing he is. He believes it's "justice."

 

It is paragon instant-win. That's why he breaks the curse when you stick to idealism. Otherwise he'd die without doing so. Then the paragon warden would have a dead Zathrian, cursed dalish, and the werewolves. But at least their honor would still be intact.

 

I feel like I'm just paraphrasing what I've already said here.

 

And you're assuming he can't be rational. NVM that he's never called on it (nor his bloodmagic usage) til the Lady of the Forest tells the PC.

 

Oh great. Now we're assuming that people never change their minds and can't be persuaded into a different POV and otherwise is paragon instant win for reasons.

 

Is this going to become another paragons should never have good outcomes debate? Cause I got tired of that after ME2 came out.

[congokong]

It feels like the perfect paragon here. I agree. In Mass Effect I always had a problem with the end where if you very logically tell joker to focus on Sovereign you lose the Ascension. But if you decide to save the council, which is a very illogical thing to do because during that time you lose ships and power which you need against sovereign (and I don't care that the ascension is powerful, it doesn't make up for all the losses which I think is the fifth fleet - under the command of the guy that inspects your ship earlier in the game), then you magically save the council and can destroy sovereign. It's just to contrived for me and smacks of this whole 'make the ideal choice and everything works out for the best' which is not always true and actually in this case it feels very unrealistic. It feels like a metagaming choice. Sovereign had to be destroyed. New council will replace the old. Sure you lose the ascension, but you need to stop sovereign. And they kind of use this tactic with zathrian because based on his anger when you first talk to him there is no reason to believe he will come to his wits after a good beatdown. In fact, it's sort of strange how he just gives up when there is no sign or hint that he might. Yes, you do convince him but he had a lot of anger walking into meet them. It feels like it was a bit rigged except that you did beat him in a challenging battle which probably forced his hand.

This.

 

Too many times on the ME message board people argue and argue over how it "tactically makes sense to save the council while Sovereign is glued to the Citadel." Bullshit. The game makes it clear that you're jeopardizing success to save the council. In Shepard's position who i their right mind would waste resources on the Ascension when a reaper is trying to override Vigil's data-file that stalled Saren's opening of the arms?

 

That's why my canon Shepard was one that made the choices I'd make. In that situation I'd focus on the reaper!

[congokong]

Well you could let the Werewolves murder the Dalish for revenge but then you're no better than Zathrian.

But Morrigan approves.

 

 

That plan reminds me of the evil renegade decision of Mass Effect 2 when you choose Morinth over Samara. You replace an ally of certain loyalty for a recent enemy of very questionable loyalty.

[Ryzaki]

They probably can change their minds, but I can count on one hand I've pulled it off. I know little of this magical persuasion stuff in real life. This games spoil me on problem solving. It rarely works out like this. Mostly I just go through life cutting my losses and burning bridges. Heh

 

Well of course it's a game. It's no different than people willing to follow you and trust you despite your character potentially having chronic backstabbing disorder.

 

For realistic outcomes to occur sometimes the paragon option would blow up in your face and sometimes the renegade option would blow up in your face. As it is neither side really punishes you. (and no missing out on a 10 second cameo is not a punishment). And in ME3 I'm almost certain you can get all three endings (now that they've been patched without those ridiculous must do MP to get breathe ending reqs) regardless of alignment.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 avril 2014 - 09:38 .

[congokong]

And you're assuming he can't be rational. NVM that he's never called on it (nor his bloodmagic usage) til the Lady of the Forest tells the PC.

 

Oh great. Now we're assuming that people never change their minds and can't be persuaded into a different POV and otherwise is paragon instant win for reasons.

 

Is this going to become another paragons should never have good outcomes debate? Cause I got tired of that after ME2 came out.

 

You're risking the dalish army by assuming he will be rational. That's a big risk and one you can take. In this quests case I don't think it should work out.

 

There are a few paragon decisions that I believe should work out. I think saving the Circle should work as well as destroying the anvil. It makes sense that Caradin could make a paragon crown since he is a paragon despite being a golem.

 

I don't think the dalish paragon route should've worked nor the Connor one. Considering all the slaughter at possessed Connor's hands I cannot imagine he'd be docile for several days after you leave. When you come back it should result in someone else dying; either him, Isolde, or others. Maybe the town got attacked again.

[DarthGizka]

Actually, it is possible that at redcliffe your team is just four people. [...]

All companions except for Alistair and Morrigan are optional in one sense or another, and Morrigan can be fired. That means in the worst case the Warden would only have Alistair to keep Connor in check while travelling to fetch Irving, which would basically leave Connor's demon free to do as it pleased.

I'm not saying that the game should let the player get away with leaving just one toon in charge but it should not simply assume failure in such a case either. It does exactly that at Ishal (where it assumes that the player will be two or three hours late, even though an experienced player can do it all in about half an hour), again at Ishal (where the game hands free victory to the darkspawn flooding the top floor after the beacon is lit, even though an experienced player might be able to kill them all), and in a couple of other places. The game cannot simply assume failure; the pudding must actually be eaten.

In Connor's case, a lone Alistair would almost certainly be pwned in the non-Fade encounter but a well-trained Morrigan should be able to handle it just fine. My nightmare solo mage did it without breaking a sweat (in a throwaway fork, because I was curious).

Modifié par DarthGizka, 05 avril 2014 - 09:47 .

[Ryzaki]

You're risking the dalish army by assuming he will be rational. That's a big risk and one you can take. In this quests case I don't think it should work out.

 

There are a few paragon decisions that I believe should work out. I think saving the Circle should work as well as destroying the anvil. It makes sense that Caradin could make a paragon crown since he is a paragon despite being a golem.

 

I don't think the dalish paragon route should've worked nor the Connor one. Considering all the slaughter at possessed Connor's hands I cannot imagine he'd be docile for several days after you leave. When you come back it should result in someone else dying; either him, Isolde, or others. Maybe the town got attacked again.

 

Zath is not needed for the dalish army. His death costs you a resource but Lanaya is still there and willing to pay her dues..

 

Even if the disease *wasn't* cured there's nothing stopping the PC from slaying all the werewolves after they kill Zath and bringing witherfang's heart to Lanaya and getting the dalish anyway. Only difference is the disease would resurface after a while.

 

Conner is forced stupidity. There's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to split the party up and have the defenders there just in case the demon decides to strike back.

[Ryzaki]

Maybe this is why I find TES more believable. It makes sense that my Adventurer is running around mostly solo. Who in their right mind would actually follow this guy?

 

Yeah I had a CE that just used the murder knife whenever she could just for Alistair's "what the hell!" reactions.

[Ryzaki]

I don't think that's the assumption. I think that the perspective for some might be that Paragon seems to always have very ideal outcomes or most of the time. It's sort of like they magically coat it so that EVERYTHING works out perfectly even when logic dictates it could go very badly. Like leaving that demon in the castle while I go to the circle to get lyrium and mages - the very demon that raised the dead.. frankly I was wondering as I left if he could just do that all over again with all those corpses I left lying around, but knowing that it was a BW game I used BW logic and knew all would magically be well if I did the right and good thing. That's how I play BW games now. I know that being the paragon gets me the best outcome on all fronts. In the real world, being a paragon can get you screwed big time. Sometimes the choices are hard and are not pretty and trying to always do the paragon or ideal thing can really go badly. But paragons should have good outcomes. I'm not against that. But I do think they should also have a realm of realism in them rather than some magic fairy dust writing that fixes every aspect about the paragon choice that posed some kind of problem so that it all is perfect, shiny and well with no real loss - in this case I'm thinking back to the best example I can. Mass Effect - save the council. That is not tactically sound and yet it magically allows you to stop sovereign and save the council. Losing a fleet doesn't seem to matter. You can still destroy that MASSIVE killing machine.

 

That's all I'm saying. Paragon should have good outcomes. Paragon should also have some of its options not give you ALL the benefit because in some cases it doesn't make sense.

 

When does any renegade option (that's not mixed with a paragon one) blow up in the PCs face?

 

Edit: I was going to go into the whole geth reaming out debate but you know not? No. I really can't be bothered. The renegade choice in that scenario is not the highly tactical choice alot of you are trying to make it out to be. (In fact the renegade choice is to blatantly leave the council to die where's the neutral choice is focus on Sovereign).

 

What paragon choices give you *all* the benefits renegades one do?

 

And nevermind that in DAO the two golden options (saving Conner and Curing the Werewolves and recruiting the elves) 1. Doesn't allow you to pick the reasonable option and 2. Gives you the same amount as any other choice does.

[congokong]

Zath is not needed for the dalish army. His death costs you a resource but Lanaya is still there and willing to pay her dues..

 

Even if the disease *wasn't* cured there's nothing stopping the PC from slaying all the werewolves after they kill Zath and bringing witherfang's heart to Lanaya and getting the dalish anyway. Only difference is the disease would resurface after a while.

 

Conner is forced stupidity. There's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to split the party up and have the defenders there just in case the demon decides to strike back.

Zathrian himself isn't needed for the army but his removing the curse (at least for the dalish) is. Sure, after killing Zathrian you could run back and smoothly explain everything that happened to Lenaya and hope the dalish will still help you. At this point you wouldn't know Lenaya could make the cure herself until speaking with her since Zathrian only reveals it after Witherfang is dead. So once you speak with Lenaya and get her to still support you after killing her keeper you can go back and kill Witherfang.

 

...Do you see just how many "if"s and "maybe"s this requires?

 

By siding against Zathrian in the fight you're taking an idealistic stand/risk that works out because that's how it is with Bioware games.

 

Regarding Connor:

 

1. I didn't have any defenders to leave at Redcliffe.

2. I wouldn't trust them to be skilled enough to handle things without me.

[Ryzaki]

Zathrian himself isn't needed for the army but his removing the curse (at least for the dalish) is. Sure, after killing Zathrian you could run back and smoothly explain everything that happened to Lenaya and hope the dalish will still help you. At this point you wouldn't know Lenaya could make the cure herself until speaking with her since Zathrian only reveals it after Witherfang is dead. So once you speak with Lenaya and get her to still support you after killing her keeper you can go back and kill Witherfang.

 

...Do you see just how many "if"s and "maybe"s this requires?

 

By siding against Zathrian in the fight you're taking an idealistic stand/risk that works out because that's how it is with Bioware games.

 

Regarding Connor:

 

1. I didn't have any defenders to leave at Redcliffe.

2. I wouldn't trust them to be skilled enough to handle things without me.

 

And why wouldn't the PC assume he taught his first how to make the potion? For all we know he needed help making it. (The PC can of course be dalish) And even if the PC doesn't know for sure why wouldn't he/she take the heart and see for themselves?  Also she supports you even if you kill Zatharin for the lulz after killing the werewolves so not sure why she wouldn't support the PC in this scenario. It's not like the warden is going to tell her what happened. (Also why the hell would you go BACK to kill Witherfang and not simply kill him/her from the beginning? There's absolutely no reason to spare them at that point they've expressed a desire to kill the elves to sate their revenge.)

 

It doesn't require that many ifs at all. PC drags around plenty of quest items of unknown importance at that point.

 

That's you. My PC would. All of them are competent fighters I see little to no reason to believe they need the PC's special snowflakeness to have them take out one desire demon.

[Shadow Fox]

What's Renegade with Zathrian?

 

I don't think it's clear. Just depends on your perspective and how you feel about forgiveness. From my perspective, if I knew I could punish someone who raped my children, I would happily punish them and their descendents for as long as I could. I don't blame Zathrian. Is that Renegade? Who cares.

 

Anyways.. umm.. siding with him gets you good results actually. The same as the "middle ground" option. I like the Dalish army. Best unit besides the mages imo.

 

I think you're punished for not keeping Zevran or Nathaniel alive. Zevran's quest in DA2 opens up a good rune, while Nathaniel upgrades Varric's armor. It bugs me if I don't have Varric's upgrades especially. Why they had to tie it in with Nathaniel, I don't know.

So you'd happily punish innocent people for a crime they didn't commit because of guilt by association?

 

Really?

[congokong]

What's Renegade with Zathrian?

 

I don't think it's clear. Just depends on your perspective and how you feel about forgiveness. From my perspective, if I knew I could punish someone who raped my children, I would happily punish them and their descendents for as long as I could. I don't blame Zathrian. Is that Renegade? Who cares.

 

The psychopath/evil renegade option is to side with the werewolves and kill the elves.

 

The reasonable renegade option is to side with Zathrian when you have to choose him or the werewolves in the fight.

 

The paragon option is to side with the werewolves against Zathrian when he refuses to lift the curse.

 

 

I have to say StreetMagic... Wanting to punish the descendants of people who wronged you is quite evil; not typical renegade.

[DarthGizka]

I don't think I can explain this any better. Confronting Zathrian was only necessary if you gave a damn about the werewolves. Zathrian already told you what was needed to lift the curse for his people.

Believing Zathrian's lies and half-truths is not necessary either, unless you want to play a certain type of character. Wanting to know more before making a decision does not imply special preference for one side over the other - it simply implies that you cannot be easily used as a tool by any Zathrian or Bhelen.

[Ryzaki]

You mean like Harrowmont? That is the "paragon" choice and it turns out to be the wrong one. (Granted it doesn't stop you from beating the game but honestly none of the "renegade" choices do either).

[congokong]

And why wouldn't the PC assume he taught his first how to make the potion? For all we know he needed help making it. (The PC can of course be dalish) And even if the PC doesn't know for sure why wouldn't he/she take the heart and see for themselves?  Also she supports you even if you kill Zatharin for the lulz after killing the werewolves so not sure why she wouldn't support the PC in this scenario. It's not like the warden is going to tell her what happened. (Also why the hell would you go BACK to kill Witherfang and not simply kill him/her from the beginning? There's absolutely no reason to spare them at that point they've expressed a desire to kill the elves to sate their revenge.)

 

It doesn't require that many ifs at all. PC drags around plenty of quest items of unknown importance at that point.

 

That's you. My PC would. All of them are competent fighters I see little to no reason to believe they need the PC's special snowflakeness to have them take out one desire demon.

 

Are you trying to be this difficult?

 

You'd side with the werewolves because you sympathize with them. You wouldn't just kill them right after Zathrian attacks them and dies.

 

And would you be weighing everything you've said in the heat of the moment when you're forced to choose a side? All I'd know at that point is that by siding against Zathrian I'm greatly hurting my chances of getting dalish aid.

 

You'd be more honest with Lenaya because you'd still require her help regarding the curse if Zathrian was dead. If Witherfang and Zathrian are dead all you're doing is delivering the heart and the bad news regarding her keeper; leaving out the murdering part.

[congokong]

Believing Zathrian's lies and half-truths is not necessary either, unless you want to play a certain type of character. Wanting to know more before making a decision does not imply special preference for one side over the other - it simply implies that you cannot be easily used as a tool by any Zathrian or Bhelen.

It's the Grey Wardens' job to unite the lands and stop the blights by any means necessary. Doing a little dirty work for Bhelen and Zathrian doesn't seem out of character from that perspective.