579 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Are you trying to be this difficult?

 

You'd side with the werewolves because you sympathize with them. You wouldn't just kill them right after Zathrian attacks them and dies.

 

And would you be weighing everything you've said in the heat of the moment when you're forced to choose a side? All I'd know at that point is that by siding against Zathrian I'm greatly hurting my chances of getting dalish aid.

 

You'd be more honest with Leliana because you'd still require her help regarding the curse if Zathrian was dead. If Witherfang and Zathrian are dead all you're doing is delivering the heart and the bad news regarding her keeper; leaving out the murdering part.

 

No you're trying to make this about the PC being a fool when that's not the case. The PC goes right up the stairs brings Zath down the werewolves have agreed to wait for this, if Zath refuses to lift the curse the werewolves mention making all the elves pay now why exactly would the PC (who we're assuming is a paragon) leave a bunch of murderous werewolves on an innocent dalish clan when the real source of their anger lies dead? The PC could have just been trying to get the full story at the point of getting Zath.

 

Zatharian is not the source of your dalish aid. At all. It's the Dalish Keeper. (who when Zath dies becomes Lanaya much like you Orz contract specifies the Dwarven King). Zath isn't helping you out of good will.

 

Um...no? Why would the PC say anything other than Witherfang killed the Keeper and you avenged him while giving her the heart to see if she could cure the curse? There's absolutely zero reason for any honesty in that scenario.

[Ryzaki]

Not that it gives you choices. It gives you an ideal outcome. And the mass effect one for the council was the middle choice that I'm speaking of. I don't do kill the council. I do focus on sovereign which has the same outcome as renegade but I don't think you get renegade points. I'm not trying to kill the council. I'm trying to save the citadel and the galaxy from reapers.

 

I don't think I said that renegades do or don't blow up in your face. I think I said that paragons always work out PERFECTLY it seems. Or nearly always.

 

I'm just saying it would nice to have some logic balance some of these things though honestly I didn't find that in DAO (barring leaving connor to play in the castle while you head off to get the mages to save him) had a whole lot of this.

 

It's really just my thoughts which are similar to your own which I did quote - that it's not always set in stone where you know 'oh BW game so the ideal solution will work out perfectly in every way despite overwhelming evidence why it would not or should not' - I'm saying that there needs to be the kind of balance you suggested in a previous post. I am in agreement with you on this point. I am not arguing against it. I see it as the way it should be, balanced so people don't always choose blue or red and have it work out as they expected. Hell, the landsmeet wasn't that way at all. The landsmeet went sideways for me more times than I can count regarding relationship with Alistair. That is kind of how it should be in the game in places where logic dictates certain decisions would not be good ones and it doesn't matter if they are paragon or renegade. They are hard choices for a reason.

 

Except there's like...2 choices that give you an ideal outcome in Dragon Age. And 1 of those outcomes isn't vastly superior to the pragmatic one so I'm a bit baffled as to the paragon backlash in DA when most of the decisions balance out...and DA2 is nothing but the only winning move is not to play scenarios.

[congokong]

A meta-gaming point that shows how unreasonable Zathrian can be is when you do choose the psychopath renegade option and side with the werewolves to kill the elves. When the werewolves threaten to destroy the clan Zathrian refuses to lift the curse. It shows how irrational/prideful he can be.

[Shadow Fox]

Yep. All I'd have to do is remind myself of a daughter getting raped in a tent or something, and I'd unleash rage on a lot of people.

 

Don't act like this is abnormal either. It's the forgiveness that is hard. It's something I really want to work at, but it's extremely abnormal.

 

Hell, the entire basis of World War II was founded on this kind of longliving resentment. It's terrible and horrible and represents the worst humanity has to offer -- but the thing is, it's real. And I won't deny being capable of the same feelings. I don't want to bullsh*t myself, or anyone else.

It is abnormal to want people to suffer for something they have nothing to do with just because they share blood or culture with a criminal or do you believe that serial killers should have their families put to to death for their actions even the children?  

 

And frankly by that logic the Dalish deserve to die for what Zathrian did to the Werewolves.

[Ryzaki]

@Cong: At that point you've driven his back against a wall and are already killing his people. There's really no reason to feel a discussion can be reached.

[DarthGizka]

It's the Grey Wardens' job to unite the lands and stop the blights by any means necessary. Doing a little dirty work for Bhelen and Zathrian doesn't seem out of character from that perspective.

Nobody said it would be out of character, and Darth Duncan would certainly approve. It is certainly the easiest option - ask what it takes to get a few troops, do it, go home.

However, you claimed that it was necessary to be Zathrian's unwitting tool. It isn't, and some people may want to play a different type of character.

[congokong]

Not that it gives you choices. It gives you an ideal outcome. And the mass effect one for the council was the middle choice that I'm speaking of. I don't do kill the council. I do focus on sovereign which has the same outcome as renegade but I don't think you get renegade points. I'm not trying to kill the council. I'm trying to save the citadel and the galaxy from reapers.

 

I don't think I said that renegades do or don't blow up in your face. I think I said that paragons always work out PERFECTLY it seems. Or nearly always.

 

I'm just saying it would nice to have some logic balance some of these things though honestly I didn't find that in DAO (barring leaving connor to play in the castle while you head off to get the mages to save him) had a whole lot of this.

 

It's really just my thoughts which are similar to your own which I did quote - that it's not always set in stone where you know 'oh BW game so the ideal solution will work out perfectly in every way despite overwhelming evidence why it would not or should not' - I'm saying that there needs to be the kind of balance you suggested in a previous post. I am in agreement with you on this point. I am not arguing against it. I see it as the way it should be, balanced so people don't always choose blue or red and have it work out as they expected. Hell, the landsmeet wasn't that way at all. The landsmeet went sideways for me more times than I can count regarding relationship with Alistair. That is kind of how it should be in the game in places where logic dictates certain decisions would not be good ones and it doesn't matter if they are paragon or renegade. They are hard choices for a reason.

 

Yes, the notion is that renegade plays it safe by allowing sacrifices. Paragons take idealistic risks in the hopes of saving everyone/the maximum number of people at the gamble of in ME's case; the galaxy. Ex: saving the council in ME1.  And it always works out. Renegades don't get a "GAME OVER" for being renegade of course. But that's the point. Renegades choose practicality to avoid the game over. Paragons manage to avoid it as well as receive other incentives because of how they're rewarded. Ex: saving both Connor and Isolde rather than losing half the town running to the Circle for mages and Lyrium.

[Ryzaki]

Well, yes. Harrowmont seems ideal. He was my choice in my first game. I felt badly for his epilogue slide then read about behlen's and reconsidered. And even though Behlen is a tyrant he does drag his people out of the class system and they even start going to the surface more. Harrowmont leaves them stuck in a system that is not of benefit to the classless all for the sake of tradition.

 

I don't think it has to stop you from beating the game. It just should represent how what appears to be the best choice might not be. Harrowmont doesn't blow up in your face but in the end you realize that it might take a ruthless tyrant to force progress on people who seem to be stuck in ways that no longer suit them. They've lost most of their home to the darkspawn. If they don't start going to the surface, losing their class system and building new homes on the surface, they could end up dying off or at least never flourishing. So while Harrowmont is the better person of the two, Behlen is the better leader. Kind of like are you going to cure the genophage with just wreav? Hell no. He is ready to go to war. Doesn't affect my game right then (aside from picking up salarians) but paragon would not be to lie and fake the cure only in that case you kind of are setting up the galaxy to be screwed.

 

Even my paragons would never cure the genophage with Wreav. There's taking a risk then there's playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun

 

Eh I like the Krogan choices most'll cause they reward consistency. If you're consistent in supporting the Krogan (Having Wrex as lead, saving the genophage for later, dismantling the bomb) you get good results. If you're consistent in having the Krogan stay where they are (Killing Wrex/Letting Ash kill him, destroying the genophage) you get good results. Trying to mix and match is what blows up in your face.

[Ryzaki]

yes, you are right. I think I might have pointed this out. It's a bit different in DA where I was using an ME specific reference to make a point. So you are right. Here they balance out. I was thinking along the lines of BW system in general.

 

Ah well, enough of this paragon renegade talk for me. It's been beaten enough and I haven't even seen these other threads people mentioned.

 

Yeah you did. I'm just confused as to why people are bringing it up as though it's an issue in DAO when most of the paragon choices are justified (Conner was plot induced stupidity) and they're pretty rare.

[congokong]

However, you claimed that it was necessary to be Zathrian's unwitting tool. It isn't, and some people may want to play a different type of character.

From a practicality perspective it was necessary to be Zathrian's tool to get dalish aid. But if the pc isn't the ideal "stop the blight by any means necessary" Grey Warden they should be punished for it in-game. By sticking with principles by siding against Zathrian you should lose the dalish to the curse and be forced to take the werewolves if you want aid at all. Sometimes idealism shouldn't work out.

[Shadow Fox]

It's not about logic. And I never claimed it was. Justifying things like this comes down to power. People can get away with quite a bit, as long as they win. It doesn't mean it's rational or logical. And until a mightier person or force comes by to stop it, it continues.

 

If the Dalish deserve to die, then it would come down to the same thing. Who has the power to do it. Not who has the logic.

 

If everything was about logic, the world would be a much better place.

So basically you don't believe in morality then?

[congokong]

@Cong: At that point you've driven his back against a wall and are already killing his people. There's really no reason to feel a discussion can be reached.

 

I'd say he'd be more inclined to cure it when his whole clan is presently threatened rather than just himself in the werewolf lair. But at this point I can see we're never going to agree about this so we should stop responding to each other about it.

[Ryzaki]

I'd say he'd be more inclined to cure it when his whole clan is presently threatened rather than just himself in the werewolf lair. But at this point I can see we're never going to agree about this so we should stop responding to each other about it.

 

Fair enough.

[Shadow Fox]

I never said that either. It has to be enforced the same way as vengeance does. Both have to be backed by power. I don't believe morality stands on it's own well. It only creates an effect when you threaten people. Take the Civil War, for example. Nothing would be accomplished with morality alone. That's what the abolitionists tried for years.. they became disillusioned when they depended on appealing to the morality of their fellow countrymen to end slavery, and got it thrown back at them. Slavery only ended when there was War and hundreds of thousands of dead bodies lying in the fields. That's morality for you. Backed by power, the same as anything else.

But on the other hand Segregation was ended mostly peacefully by appealing to morality not by a bloody war.

 

And that's the last time I'll bring up politics here.

[DarthGizka]

From a practicality perspective it was necessary to be Zathrian's tool to get dalish aid. But if the pc isn't the ideal "stop the blight by any means necessary" Grey Warden they should be punished for it in-game. By sticking with principles by siding against Zathrian you should lose the dalish to the curse and be forced to take the werewolves if you want aid at all. Sometimes idealism shouldn't work out.

There it is again, the supposed 'necessity'. Calling Zathrian on his lies does not necessarily have to result in his death, and he could have presented an ultimatum when he realised that he was totally outgunned, instead letting himself be convinced to relent as it happened. I don't know how my Wardens would have reacted in that case but that question is moot.

Did you accept Caladrius' offer to turn the slaves into a small improvement of your chances for the Endsieg?

As regards your 'punishment':   I tried calling an army once, to see what happens. But Archie dropped dead a few seconds later and so I don't even know how many came.