146 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Well the Asari government. The same thing could be said of the Alliance but that wouldn't damn humanity would it?

I still say we should have had the option to chew out Tevos (before the usual suspects start in on me, that's a repudiation of her government, not the species). If you save the Spectre instead of Kahje, Shepard's (autodialogue) attitude regarding the Hanar extinction is... less than charitable. As I've noted, you can shoot Mordin, lie to Wrex's face about it, shoot Wrex and lie to C-Sec about it. One of the dialogue options reacting to the Quarian extinction is "they were stupid." Shepard can kill tens of millions and spit on their graves (I'd have liked to see more blowback for doing it, but that's another issue). So why exactly do the Asari get a free pass?

Shepard: "In case you haven't noticed, Joker, we just lost a few million people. This isn't the time!"
Joker: "Uh... really, Commander? You want to go there?"

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@Massively
Evolution selects traits. In humans, so far it has selected for morality and cooperation. One can claim any manner of behavior as right, but only time will tell if that behavior is selected by evolution.

I really don't see why evolution would select a needlessly confrontational worldview that you are espousing. It just seems counterproductive.

 

I didn't know evolution selected morality (hint hint; it didn't). I thought those were abstract concepts that grew out of philosophical understanding of justice stemming from a desire to be happy.

 

And again, you're ascribing what you want to see on my worldview. That's not what it is. Don't say that it's something that its not.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I still say we should have had the option to chew out Tevos (before the usual suspects start in on me, that's a repudiation of her government, not the species). If you save the Spectre instead of Kahje, Shepard's (autodialogue) attitude regarding the Hanar extinction is... less than charitable. As I've noted, you can shoot Mordin, lie to Wrex's face about it, shoot Wrex and lie to C-Sec about it. One of the dialogue options reacting to the Quarian extinction is "they were stupid." Shepard can kill millions and spit on their graves (I'd have liked to see more blowback for doing it, but that's another issue). So why exactly do the Asari get a free pass?

Shepard: "In case you haven't noticed, Joker, we just lost a few million people. This isn't the time!"
Joker: "Uh... really, Commander? You want to go there?"

 

I'm not disagreeing with that. I dislike every Asari leader/war strategist out there (the Matriarchy?), but I don't think the species should be condemned for it.

 

Edit: Didn't know Shepard could be a ****** about the other races. So, I guess for the sake of symmetry the Asari shouldn't be spared; or at the very least forced sadness for them over everyother race.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm not disagreeing with that. I dislike every Asari leader/war strategist out there (the Matriarchy?), but I don't think the species should be condemned for it.

Edit: Didn't know Shepard could be a ****** about the other races. So, I guess for the sake of symmetry the Asari shouldn't be spared; or at the very least forced sadness for them over everyother race.

Yep, like I said, repudiation of Tevos would be in the form of criticism for her government's actions. I'd have liked to see more blowback for extinctions caused by Shepard. Kill the Quarians? Garrus knocks your ass out on the hangar deck. No friendly bottle-shooting contest for you. Kill the Geth? Unavoidable confrontation with EDI (say, locking you in your cabin while she questions you as to your reasoning). Expect cold showers for a week. Etc.

[Obadiah]

@Massively

Evolution actually did select for morality, otherwise we wouldn't have had it for several thousand years. Where and why it arose is an interesting discussion, but beside the point.

Also, I haven't ascribed anything to you. I was commenting on the apathetic pro-human alien-manipulation worldview you described. If it it is fake or not is, again, beside the point.

[von uber]

Yep, like I said, repudiation of Tevos would be in the form of criticism for her government's actions. I'd have liked to see more blowback for extinctions caused by Shepard. Kill the Quarians? Garrus knocks your ass out on the hangar deck. No friendly bottle-shooting contest for you. Kill the Geth? Unavoidable confrontation with EDI (say, locking you in your cabin while she questions you as to your reasoning. Expect cold showers for a week. Etc.

 

I like this idea.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yep, like I said, repudiation of Tevos would be in the form of criticism for her government's actions. I'd have liked to see more blowback for extinctions caused by Shepard. Kill the Quarians? Garrus knocks your ass out on the hangar deck. No friendly bottle-shooting contest for you. Kill the Geth? Unavoidable confrontation with EDI (say, locking you in your cabin while she questions you as to your reasoning. Expect cold showers for a week. Etc.

If you kill the Quarians, Garrus, who hates the Geth and could very well be in a relationship with Tali, just says some words and let's Shepard go. 
EDI would have serious issues with Shepard killing the Geth.
Hackett would chew Shepard out for stupidity if she let the Rachni-Mech live. 
Yeah, I agree. The game would have been better if we saw inter-personal consequences for our actions. 

[DeinonSlayer]

I like this idea.

Makes more sense than what we got.

(Yeah, it's old. Came up on Google.)

[DeinonSlayer]

If you kill the Quarians, Garrus, who hates the Geth and could very well be in a relationship with Tali, just says some words and let's Shepard go.
EDI would have serious issues with Shepard killing the Geth.
Hackett would chew Shepard out for stupidity if she let the Rachni-Mech live.
Yeah, I agree. The game would have been better if we saw inter-personal consequences for our actions.

I liked how Alistair would blow up at you for killing Connor or Isolde to resolve the situation at Redcliff (even though Isolde was a b**** to him when he was younger). Actions have consequences. I'd rather Garrus gave Shepard a black eye for something like that than be one meek voice among a gaggle of sycophants.

It'd be in character for EDI to lock you in your cabin, too. With certain dialogue paths (not shipping her with Joker), it's revealed she doesn't know how she compares with organics - she disregards military rank. Players might even see it as threatening for her to take control of Shepard like that, sealing you in your room for questioning.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I liked how Alistair would blow up at you for killing Connor or Isolde to resolve the situation at Redcliff (even though Isolde was a b**** to him when he was younger). Actions have consequences. I'd rather Garrus gave Shepard a black eye for something like that than be one meek voice among a gaggle of sycophants.

It'd be in character for EDI to lock you in your cabin, too. With certain dialogue paths (not shipping her with Joker), it's revealed she doesn't know how she compares with organics - she disregards military rank. Players might even see it as threatening for her to take control of Shepard like that, sealing you in your room for questioning.

 

I'd like to see Garrus try to give Shepard a black eye. That said, I'd like a chance to defend and argue my rationale in the game to other characters.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'd like to see Garrus try to give Shepard a black eye. That said, I'd like a chance to defend and argue my rationale in the game to other characters.

Eh. If Garrus succeeds, it helps cut through Shepard's Mary Sue mystique (what would the rest of that be? "I'd like to see EDI try to lock that door?" A surprise punch followed by back-and-forth dialogue is better IMO than Shepard "losing" to Kai Leng).

I'm all for the RP latitude to defend your rationale. Makes sense if the person you're justifying yourself to still disagrees yet follows grudgingly because you're the only game in town (like if you turn over the evidence in ME2).

EDIT: Then again, it'd be interesting if they threw in a renegade interrupt lasting like 1/8th of a second to intercept the punch and put him in an armlock or something before he plants Shepard's ass on the floor.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yeah, I remember in KOTOR, there comes a point where, SPOILERS, you can decide that you want to take back your Sith Empire. And how do the other characters react? Well, you end up having to kill a lot of squadmates. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yeah, I remember in KOTOR, there comes a point where, SPOILERS, you can decide that you want to take back your Sith Empire. And how do the other characters react? Well, you end up having to kill a lot of squadmates. 

 

Yeup.

 

By the way, here's what I do for Spoliers.

 

[Sir DeLoria]

Honestly, I'm glad the Reapers are coming to save the galaxy from some Shepards...

[Barquiel]

The Quarians were wiped out because Gerrel charged head first into the Geth (I guess the "quarians kill the geth" scene is similar). I am all for characters being devasted after Rannoch if the geth or the quarians are wiped out, but Shepard didn't kill them. Starting brawls on the Normandy would be a bit absurd.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Quarians were wiped out because Gerrel charged head first into the Geth (I guess the "quarians kill the geth" scene is similar). I am all for characters being devasted after Rannoch if the geth or the quarians are wiped out, but Shepard didn't kill them. Starting brawls on the Normandy would be a bit absurd.

Just so you're aware, in the "quarians kill the geth" scene, Shepard voices opposition to the upload, at which point the Geth representative starts to strangle you and the Quarian representative saves Shepard by either stabbing (Tali) or shooting (Raan) the Geth.

Gotta disagree with the rest, though. In the only outcome where the Quarians die, Shepard consciously withholds two key facts from the Quarians: A ) that the upload is taking place, and B ) that the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their entire history. This second point is only true if Legion is present - the Geth VI plainly states its intent to exterminate them. The Quarians can only survive by killing the Geth in that case, and with Legion present, they're operating on the same assumption until Shepard informs them circumstances have changed.

Shepard makes his choice fully aware of the consequences (you're told by two people exactly what will happen beforehand). Whatever happens, Shepard owns it. To evade responsibility for said consequences can only be called denial or moral cowardice. In the interest of not turning this into one of those threads, I'll leave it at that.

[Sir DeLoria]

The Quarians were wiped out because Gerrel charged head first into the Geth (I guess the "quarians kill the geth" scene is similar). I am all for characters being devasted after Rannoch if the geth or the quarians are wiped out, but Shepard didn't kill them. Starting brawls on the Normandy would be a bit absurd.

But he was responsible. Like a bystander clearly seeing a child about to be hit by a speeding car and not giving a damn. Shep doesn't even try to warn or at least tell the Quarian fleet what they're up against. He's backstabbing his allies and ignoring Hackett's orders.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Necanor, just FYI, I really don't want to shift the thread into another QvG debate. I won't pursue it further unless Barquiel forces the issue.

[Sir DeLoria]

@Necanor, just FYI, I really don't want to shift the thread into another QvG debate. I won't pursue it further unless Barquiel forces the issue.

I'm not, this is more about Shep's responsibility than the actual conflict between the two.

[Bob from Accounting]

I still say we should have had the option to chew out Tevos (before the usual suspects start in on me, that's a repudiation of her government, not the species). If you save the Spectre instead of Kahje, Shepard's (autodialogue) attitude regarding the Hanar extinction is... less than charitable. As I've noted, you can shoot Mordin, lie to Wrex's face about it, shoot Wrex and lie to C-Sec about it. One of the dialogue options reacting to the Quarian extinction is "they were stupid." Shepard can kill millions and spit on their graves (I'd have liked to see more blowback for doing it, but that's another issue). So why exactly do the Asari get a free pass?

Shepard: "In case you haven't noticed, Joker, we just lost a few million people. This isn't the time!"
Joker: "Uh... really, Commander? You want to go there?"

I agree. The player should absolutely have had the option of being hostile to Tevos. Assuming the situation on Thessia wasn't rewritten entirely.

 

It's nice to see some criticism of the scenario that doesn't incorporate childish demands to exterminate all asari or whatnot.

[Barquiel]

Admiral Gerrel (if you delay uploading the Reaper code): "They're trying to flee! Stay on them!"

The geth did try to escape, but Gerrel wasn't about to let that happen. It's Shepards's fault that Gerral is only willing to listen to the magical blue/red button and stops attacking the Geth? We have Gerrel who doesn't listen to his fellow admirals and Tali/Raan who are not sharing the intel (that's very bad writing, sure). And maybe then we can start to blame Shepard.

[DeinonSlayer]

I agree it's a very clumsy scene which sets up a false dichotomy. Peace without Reaper code would be my preferred outcome, but we aren't permitted to question the safety or philosophical reversal inherent in its use at any time even though your squad does so en rout to the facility (another shortcoming). Still, I stand by my point. Shepard owns the decision and the consequences. Even your squadmates refer to it as having been Shepard's choice afterwards.

[Sir DeLoria]

It literally is Shepards choice to be blatanly put. Both of you did point out, why in my opinion, this is by far the most poorly written scene in the game.

[Cainhurst Crow]

This must be such a lonely playthough with most of your old friends dead and all.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This must be such a lonely playthough with most of your old friends dead and all.

 

Not really. You can't really miss people you never really liked to begin with.

 

I suppose that's not true. Look at David.