424 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

I understand how you came to think of it.  I think part of the challenge is the nuanced differences between Dragon Age's reality and our own.  I think that the general equality that exists in Dragon Age is a good thing, and as am placing my own biases/ideals in that I think it'd be preferred if a little boy could find inspiration in a female Inquisitor just as well as a little girl could find inspiration in a male Inquisitor (and all other permutations).

 

Though I don't mean to be a buzzkill or a downer by pointing out my reticence.  I more brought it up to kind of illustrate the challenges that come when we're presenting a world that is similar, but has differences, with our own.

 

It's actually a pretty awesome thought...a boy being inspired by Lady Inquisitor...especially if he never calls her pretty. (Not that she isn't, of course, but that it isn't why she inspired him.)

[Allan Schumacher]

I grew up, like many boys, with the "girls are gross and uncool" mindset of a young boy.  But Sigourney Weaver and Linda Hamilton helped erase that antiquated notion from my thought process

 

 

(Aside: I had a chance to meet Linda Hamilton at the Calgary Comic Con last year, and basically shared the same story about how the two of them did a pretty excellent job of showing me that women can be pretty badass too! )

[oceanicsurvivor]

It's actually a pretty awesome thought...a boy being inspired by Lady Inquisitor...especially if he never calls her pretty. (Not that she isn't, of course, but that it isn't why she inspired him.)

 

I want this. I didn't know I did, but now it has to happen.

 

er...please?

 

 

Side note: one of my favorite moments in the City Elf origin was when you got to make up a story with an elven hero for the little kids playing in the back alley. Not everyone in Thedas does feel represented, so actually getting to see the impact the elven Inquisitor or dwarven or mage inquisitor has on those they represent (children, mainly) would generally be pretty cool. (with or without a real world equivilent attached, although, as I said, I really like this example!)

[Ryzaki]

I also loved how you could make the hero noble or a straight up thief XD that was a cute scene.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

 
 
A potential problem I see with this, given the distinction between men and women in Dragon Age is less pronounced, is that it could undermine the relative equivalence of men and women if the little girl only responded to a female protagonist.  If men and women are often seen in this type of position, wouldn't it make more sense for the girl to be inspired by the inquisitor, regardless of the Inquisitor's sex?

 

ouch. petard'd

[Darth Krytie]

ouch. petard'd

 

Not really? If a person has a good point, I'm willing to hear it? That's why this is a discussion? I'm also willing to change my mind if I'm shown to be in error? Or at least short-sighted? This is all just trying to work around a difficult topic...hell, there's not even a lot of good examples for people to cite. We're trying out new ground, here. There's bound to be missteps along the way.

[Allan Schumacher]

Not really? If a person has a good point, I'm willing to hear it? That's why this is a discussion? I'm also willing to change my mind if I'm shown to be in error? Or at least short-sighted? This is all just trying to work around a difficult topic...hell, there's not even a lot of good examples for people to cite. We're trying out new ground, here. There's bound to be missteps along the way.

 

As someone who has said things and let my own perspectives skew things along a particular way (sometimes on these very boards), pretty much this.  Was simply a "I don't think that would work as well" complete with a different idea going "ooo, this could be interesting" coming out of it as well.

 

It's a lot like game development really

[KaiserShep]

There is no real difference. I'm guessing that it's referring to the fact that all LI's are available to either gender, and with one or more companions likely being vague to expressing no preference one way or the other, it could seem like they just switch over with each playthrough (can't say I like putting it that way, but that's likely how some would interpret it).

[TataJojo]

I think it's great to have human flaws represented in games as it makes you think on how people behave...etc

 

For example, GTA, it's a satyrical depiction of our society so including things like racism and sexism works well and serves a purpose

 

BUT I don't see sexism only against women relevant in Dragon Age as it is pure fiction and it seems to not fit the lore at all, I would like to see some against men too or none at all.

 

And please, if we can be complimented on our hair as female, make it so we can be complimented on our hair if we're male also !

( yes it happens to me in real life, people are jelly of my long ginger hair )

[TurretSyndrome]

TotalBiscuit covers some pretty good points on this subject, I recommend hearing what he has to say. 

 

 

[Darth Krytie]

TotalBiscuit covers some pretty good points on this subject, I recommend hearing what he has to say. 

 

 

He does have some interesting points, but--and I'm pretty sure even he'd agree--what he does lack is perspective...in particular, the perspective of a woman navigating the waters of gaming in a male-dominated industry. Or even that of a woman trying to navigate media at all. One thing in particular that I disagree with is the ability for game--or any media--to influence perceptions and beliefs. If you are constantly bombarded all day, every day, with the same message--women are objects...women are there for your sexual gratification...women are lesser than men...women are whatever...then it does have the potential to influence someone who consumes that all day long and doesn't receive any contradictory information. The way women are treated in the real world bears this out. Not saying that a game alone does all the damage, but it a part of the larger machine at work.

 

It's been proven time and time again that the more something is accepted on tv and movies and books (and by extension of this, games) that it becomes more acceptable at the society at large. I cite the big one: Star Trek: The Original Series. That really opened a lot of eyes.  So, I don't really think he gives the constant sexism and misogyny that can be found in games the weight it really can have.

[TurretSyndrome]

You need to understand that what you say here is very akin to what the media and the politicians like to say when they want to blame video games for violence. You seem to believe in a similar fashion that the existence of sexism and misogyny in game worlds somehow encourages real world discrimination.

[Mes]

You need to understand that what you say here is very akin to what the media and the politicians like to say when they want to blame video games for violence. You seem to believe in a similar fashion that the existence of sexism and misogyny in game worlds somehow encourages real world discrimination.

 

She's just saying it's part of a bigger picture of how the media represents all of us - women, men, white people, Asians, etc etc. 

 

And yes, I most definitely believe that the media can have an influence on us (and WE also influence IT). 

 

For instance I grew up on older Disney movies, and I went through a period where I thought a woman's role was to sit at home and look pretty while a man's role was to go out and have adventures. 

 

As a teenager media taught me to judge women on their looks rather than their personalities, and that as a woman the affection of a man was my ultimate goal.

 

Needless to say I've had a lot of re-learning and un-learning to do. I am not saying I think violence in video games makes kids grow up to be violent (as an example), but yes video games are part of a very large media picture that entwines with our society.

[Darth Krytie]

You need to understand that what you say here is very akin to what the media and the politicians like to say when they want to blame video games for violence. You seem to believe in a similar fashion that the existence of sexism and misogyny in game worlds somehow encourages real world discrimination.

 

Not even close. It's not even close to that. People receive messages from media and people and parents all the time that says that violence is bad or not the answer. On top of that, violence is a physical action. Something that people do. Sexism and misogyny are thoughts and beliefs. It's not even close to the same thing. People learn how the world works from what they see every day, and a large portion of that is media. There are studies out there that prove that men who watch pornography have a skewed perception of what is and is not acceptable in sexual situations and of women's bodies and other things. So, yes, media portrayals of belief systems and societal stigmas and thoughts matter.

[Stelae]

You need to understand that what you say here is very akin to what the media and the politicians like to say when they want to blame video games for violence. You seem to believe in a similar fashion that the existence of sexism and misogyny in game worlds somehow encourages real world discrimination.

Er, no.  First of all, you are mixing up causing something and perpetuating something.  Misogyny already exists; these games just make it seem inevitable and natural. Violence, on the other hand, is something we are taught to avoid and exhorted to find alternatives for.  Both exist in games.  Only one goes largely unchallenged in society.

 

We tell ourselves stories -- everything from fairy tales upwards -- to teach social rules. Games are stories.  If kids - boys and girls - are constantly given the message that women are helpless, sexually available and basically there to serve the needs and whims of men, if that's what they constantly hear, that's what they grow up to believe. So when the messages we get about women are that they are inferior to men, and need rescuing because they are vulnerable in a way men are not, and can't look after themselves in most cases, that's another voice which adds to the pile of sexist crap women have to dig their way out of. 

[Lady Nuggins]

TotalBiscuit covers some pretty good points on this subject, I recommend hearing what he has to say. 

 

I honestly couldn't sit through the entire video, but I skimmed through it and got to "fun misogyny" and decided I was pretty much done.  

 

Whether you personally think sexism in video games is offensive or not, you're not really the affected party here.  What does this video have to do with the specific topic at hand?  Are you arguing in favor of continuing to insert sexist dialogue into DA games? 

[Allan Schumacher]

You need to understand that what you say here is very akin to what the media and the politicians like to say when they want to blame video games for violence. You seem to believe in a similar fashion that the existence of sexism and misogyny in game worlds somehow encourages real world discrimination.

 

The counterpoint to the violence being portrayed as okay is that violence is shown as NOT being okay from other areas. There is also potential differences between what is an idea compared to an action, and what influences those have.

 

Also, it's not that it "encourages* discrimination.  I'd argue that most (or at least a lot) of discrimination isn't even conscious.  I grew up in a time when being a gay man was basically "icky" and it was a common pejorative to refer to someone as gay when insulting them (the word then got applied to all sorts of other negative connotations and was problematic in other ways, but I digress).  Though I was taught to not look down upon a gay person, and if I were to ever accidentally say or do something that was disparaging (such as casual use of the word gay, when I meant silly/absurd/stupid), I certainly didn't feel like I was being a bad person and would defend that I wasn't intending to be hurtful.  It didn't stop me from not wanting to be called gay, or being confused and uncomfortable when I learned someone was gay.

 

If it desensitizes discrimination, however, that could be a problematic thing (though we could argue that us discussing it is still a positive, as it helps with awareness).

 

Anecdotally, I know people that think that Game of Thrones is a pretty accurate representation of how things were like in medieval times.  I also know people (including myself, at one point) that hear something like Braveheart's Prima Noctis declaration and, for whatever reason, assume that that could very well have been a thing and therefore probably was (Lets just say I'm pretty skeptical at its prevalence now).  I remember my Mom asking me "why do black people say the f-word all the time?" while watching a movie.  She was taking what she saw in that movie, from those characters, and assuming it was a common cultural thing among all people with that skin colour.  Stuff like this can be problematic, especially if your exposure to people of different races tends to be limited (I grew up in Edmonton, and it's a pretty white city for better or worse).

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I would like gender specific dialog and ways to resolve quests. I think BioWare is intent on not excluding players from content by ignoring their choice of gender (i.e romances), but it is something that would add to the game if it were done tastefully instead of resorting to crude stereotypes and comments (surprise at a "woman fighter", brutish man with aggressive dialog, etc).

[BlueMagitek]

It would be nice for there to be alternate means based on your species/gender/class.  Take, for example, Fort Drakon, but make infiltrating it a part of the quest (or an optional objective, brute force is always an option ).  A human female can possibly pose as a Chantry Sister, while an elf might be able to sneak in as one of those "knife ears all look the same" servants.

[Mes]

The counterpoint to the violence being portrayed as okay is that violence is shown as NOT being okay from other areas. 

 

You know that's a good point. Something like violence is usually shown to have a consequence, we as a society know it's wrong to be violent towards other people, etc. But a lot of misogynistic attitudes/actions toward women are sort of shown as a given rather than as a problem to be remedied.

[slimgrin]

I would like gender specific dialog and ways to resolve quests. I think BioWare is intent on not excluding players from content by ignoring their choice of gender (i.e romances), but it is something that would add to the game if it were done tastefully instead of resorting to crude stereotypes and comments (surprise at a "woman fighter", brutish man with aggressive dialog, etc).

 

This is exactly what Bioware will ignore, and what many fans here agree with - don't recognize gender.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

You need to understand that what you say here is very akin to what the media and the politicians like to say when they want to blame video games for violence. You seem to believe in a similar fashion that the existence of sexism and misogyny in game worlds somehow encourages real world discrimination.

 

Yeah pretty much what everyone else has said. While I think that stuff is DAO is completely harmless you're naive if you think you and everyone else haven't been programmed by other media on some level, particularly tv and movies. If something is fed to you 24/7 you have to consciously remind yourself you disagree with it even when you're fully aware it's not true.

 

And I do think violence is hugely glorified in most games, even supposed "light side" options involve mass killings. I have a feeling the difference is that violence is an action, and a rather big one you have to take, that most people don't simply get the urge or courage to just because they're used to seeing it. Having said that people definitely do get desensitised to violence even if it doesn't make them perform violent actions. and you have stuff like people laughing at others getting hurt.

[Lady Nuggins]

Okay, I admit I didn't feel right commenting on the video without seeing it in full, and I was watching it with closed captioning before so I misquoted it. My mistake.

I still disagree with many of his points, which have already been discussed here, particularly the idea that women are depicted as weak damsels just because of our history. I also disagree with the idea that it's okay to oversexualize female characters as long as they can fight. However, he does make the point that these weak tropes are simply lazy writing, which is exactly what I've been trying to say. I don't think the DA folks are lazy writers, though. I think they're working against a genre and medium that is bogged down by sexist assumptions that take work to unthink.

[Vaseldwa]

In the past two games, there aren't overly large divergences in the dialogue or way the NPCs react to you based on your gender. (And when I say based on gender, it's usually specifically about a player's femaleness). However, I've noticed that they're predominately negative ones.

 

Like comments on you being a lady warden. Or NPCs making crude comments about you being a lady. I don't actually recall anyone reacting negatively to a male Warden or Hawke for being male.

 

Anyhow, I'd really like if as Inquisitor, I don't encounter any disrespect purely based on the gender of my character. Given the world has a matriarchal religious society and many women in power in various places, it seems odd. And if there must be disrepect to the Inquisitor if she's female, then equalise it and have male Inquisitors face a similar problem in another area.

 

It detracts from the enjoyment of being able to be a kickass woman in a videogame if you encounter disrespect you could avoid by playing as a male.

 

ugh yes The difference in the DN origin is very noticeable. If your a female and fight in the proving you are praised and your gender is mentioned, if your a guy you are still praised but the guy says some thing along the lines of  "You put that women in her place", that just bothered me! maybe I am being over sensitive but I still feel its wrong!