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[TurretSyndrome]

Being treated equally is not the same as being in equal number. People can respect you being in a position in the same manner regardless of your gender, but that doesn't mean they can't pick on your sex when they want to disrespect you. Just saying.

[Banxey]

Women have always been warriors in the DA universe (as far as I've read). However, women weren't allowed to become Chevaliers until the end of the Storm Age (about 150 years ago - remember the story Leliana tells about Aveline's death). So while women are and have been warriors for a long time, there still seems to be some sort of undercurrent in the society that values male warriors more than females. I assume this sort of thing would have an effect on the number of females who take up the sword and could be what is influencing the views of the men who are less than respectful towards women.

 

I also seem to remember a certain current of disrespect concerning women being the dominant force in the Chantry in Asunder. But that may have just been Lambert.

[TurretSyndrome]

I also seem to remember a certain current of disrespect concerning women being the dominant force in the Chantry in Asunder. But that may have just been Lambert.

 

Indeed. The way I understand it, the society has no problem allowing you to represent your house, your organization or whatever it maybe if you're a woman, and the ones belonging to your house or group will mostly not judge you based on your gender. I think that's what that description means in the CC screen. But when you venture out of your "safe zone" for lack of a better word, and some pompous noble, an arrogant officer or a good-for-nothing villager wants to disrespect you, they will immediately refer to your gender if you're female. 

 

The fact that they are doing so might mean that men are more in number in such positions, even though the case of a woman being a soldier or officer in itself is very common, and not looked at as something that is odd.  

 

Also want to point out that Howe refers to the human noble's mother as "your orlesian *hore* of a mother" or something along those lines.

[Lady Nuggins]

The reason you find all the disrespect in these games is because it's a medieval setting. 

 

One of the things that makes DA stand out is the fact that it doesn't use medievalism as an excuse for sexism.  Not that I'm saying that you're saying that, but it's pretty much the first thing I hear any time somebody tries to talk about gender with regards to fantasy, and it gets to me.  There is lots of evidence that real medieval society wasn't necessarily sexist in the way that modern media tends to portray it. 

[Darth Krytie]

One of the things that makes DA stand out is the fact that it doesn't use medievalism as an excuse for sexism.  Not that I'm saying that you're saying that, but it's pretty much the first thing I hear any time somebody tries to talk about gender with regards to fantasy, and it gets to me.  There is lots of evidence that real medieval society wasn't necessarily sexist in the way that modern media tends to portray it. 

 

 

And if there's sexism in the Dragon Age setting, it's because the writers put it there. They weren't under any sort of obligation to include it for the sake of 'realism' or because some semi-equivalent setting also had it. So, they can just as easily just not do it. I wasn't bothered by Sten's reaction to the lady!Warden because you basically explain the cultural difference and that's the end of it with him. It's not the same as the casual sexism you encounter from your fellow humans from your own society. A society in which women were soldiers. Not necessarily as frequently soldiers as men, but still not terribly rare either. 

 

Anyhow, the past games are the past games. I'd just like to side-step it in the future games. As I mentioned earlier, I can encounter sexism in my everyday life when I choose to interact with men. I'd rather not have to deal with it in my escapism hobbies.

[TurretSyndrome]

One of the things that makes DA stand out is the fact that it doesn't use medievalism as an excuse for sexism.  Not that I'm saying that you're saying that, but it's pretty much the first thing I hear any time somebody tries to talk about gender with regards to fantasy, and it gets to me.  There is lots of evidence that real medieval society wasn't necessarily sexist in the way that modern media tends to portray it. 

 

From what I've seen, DA hasn't been sexist at all. There is a difference between certain characters in the game being sexist or racist or whatever-ist and the game itself being all those things. It's like that Gamespot review that said "GTA V is profoundly misogynistic". 

 

The medieval setting serves as a foundation to DA, not an excuse. If I were to create a fictional world, I would first consider things what I already know and what I can see around me, then build from there. That's probably what Bioware did with this universe.

 

For the rest of your post. First of all, let me tell you that I'm an Indian. So I don't know much about the medieval history of Europe or anywhere you may be from, but what I can tell you is that a lot of people in my nation were extremely sexist back in the middle ages. What you take offence for here, pales in comparison to what I've read about it(even used to see when I was really young) which was in my country. But that doesn't mean any level of sexism is right mind you, just that if I have to take my country's middle ages state as a foundation in the world that I create, then yes I will include it to a certain extent to show people that "this is how it was back then".

 

You can still call all this justification to allow sexism, but it isn't. You can either trust me on that or don't. I've already made it clear that I understand the frustration and that it is upto offended fans here and Bioware to choose whether it can exist in the game. I have no problem nor will I face any consequence either way.

 

In any case, I can see that I'm just upsetting people here more than I realize, and I don't need that. So I'll just take my leave.  *bows out*

[Lady Nuggins]

From what I've seen, DA hasn't been sexist at all. There is a difference between certain characters in the game being sexist or racist or whatever-ist and the game itself being all those things. It's like that Gamespot review that said "GTA V is profoundly misogynistic". 

 

The medieval setting serves as a foundation to DA, not an excuse. If I were to create a fictional world, I would first consider things what I already know and what I can see around me, then build from there. That's probably what Bioware did with this universe.

 

For the rest of your post. First of all, let me tell you that I'm an Indian. So I don't know much about the medieval history of Europe or anywhere you may be from, but what I can tell you is that a lot of people in my nation were extremely sexist back in the middle ages. What you take offence for here, pales in comparison to what I've read about it(even used to see when I was really young) which was in my country. But that doesn't mean any level of sexism is right mind you, just that if I have to take my country's middle ages state as a foundation in the world that I create, then yes I will include it to a certain extent to show people that "this is how it was back then".

 

You can still call all this justification to allow sexism, but it isn't. You can either trust me on that or don't. I've already made it clear that I understand the frustration and that it is upto offended fans here and Bioware to choose whether it can exist in the game. I have no problem nor will I face any consequence either way.

 

In any case, I can see that I'm just upsetting people here more than I realize, and I don't need that. So I'll just take my leave.  *bows out*

 

You're not, actually.  You just brought up a very common argument with regards to sexism in fantasy, even though I don't think that's necessarily what you were saying here.  I just thought it was worth discussing.

 

You make a good point--for that time and place, it would absolutely make sense to portray society as it was.  But in medieval Europe, which the bulk of fantasy is based on, it was common, for example, for women to run a household and be in charge of expenses and important decisions.  But when women are portrayed as not having even this much power in a fantasy story, people call it "realism."  It's just sort of expected that fantasy stories are sexist because that is the genre and that is the picture people have of medieval Europe.  I think DA manages to resist this, for the most part, but it's easy to fall back on the deeply-ingrained sexist tropes that exist in the genre.

 

I agree, I don't think DA as a whole is sexist, and this thread brings up a number of ways in which it portrays gender equality.  The more we talk about this, the more it makes the negative dialogue for women seem out of place, except in a few select places.

[Darth Krytie]

You're not, actually.  You just brought up a very common argument with regards to sexism in fantasy, even though I don't think that's necessarily what you were saying here.  I just thought it was worth discussing.

 

You make a good point--for that time and place, it would absolutely make sense to portray society as it was.  But in medieval Europe, which the bulk of fantasy is based on, it was common, for example, for women to run a household and be in charge of expenses and important decisions.  But when women are portrayed as not having even this much power in a fantasy story, people call it "realism."  It's just sort of expected that fantasy stories are sexist because that is the genre and that is the picture people have of medieval Europe.  I think DA manages to resist this, for the most part, but it's easy to fall back on the deeply-ingrained sexist tropes that exist in the genre.

 

I agree, I don't think DA as a whole is sexist, and this thread brings up a number of ways in which it portrays gender equality.  The more we talk about this, the more it makes the negative dialogue for women seem out of place, except in a few select places.

Yes! To everything this says. I in no way think DA is at all like some other games I won't mention that are horrrible about women. I don't think DA's horrible with women at all. In fact, they're some of the greatest with women. It's just that you're right. The times it does happen, it's horribly out of place. It's even more noticeable by the lack of it elsewhere. It's jarring and immersion destroying. It's also mostly unnecessary. This thread is here because I think sometimes it's not even a conscious decision to have stuff like that. It's more a subversive reminder of current societal beliefs. I just would like to see it be improved to eliminate it. Or balanced to include men sometimes.

[TurretSyndrome]

I agree, I don't think DA as a whole is sexist, and this thread brings up a number of ways in which it portrays gender equality.  The more we talk about this, the more it makes the negative dialogue for women seem out of place, except in a few select places.

 

Respecting someone in a position regardless of their gender, and disrespecting them based on their gender are not mutually dependent is all I'm saying. Just because males and females are equally treated in most roles of society doesn't mean sexism can't exist. If someone wants to call your character "a lying ******", that character doesn't have to check in with his writer, because in the end, the writer deemed him to be a sexist, and his aim is for that character is to insult you.

 

Fantasy takes only some parts of society as it's foundations and then expands on it, creates it's own realm with it's own rules. It may or may not have the evils in it's own society that already exist in ours. Even if they do(like sexism), they can exist in their own way.

 

Another point I'd like to add is that Dragon Age is a franchise in which it's already been established that the world reacts to your gender, race, class and background. That doesn't mean it justifies sexism, it's just that the developers feel that in a world where sexism already exists, it's only natural for some characters to insult you based on your gender, race, class and background. If you want to argue that males get a free pass on this, well...

 

 

Speaking of which, here's a question for you ladies. What if I created a fictional world, and said "Yes, sexism and discrimination against women exist in this world", would you call me a sexist? Just out of curiosity.

[Darth Krytie]

Speaking of which, here's a question for you ladies. What if I created a fictional world, and said "Yes, sexism and discrimination against women exist in this world", would you call me a sexist? Just out of curiosity.

 

Probably. I don't exactly see the need for it. Coming from someone who has faced it all her life and it's due to stupid reasons. So, yes. The answer is yes. Unless the reason it's included is to highlight how terrible and awful and stupid it is.

[TurretSyndrome]

So, I will be judged as one who condones as well as practices an evil just because I let it exist in my fictional world. Good to know.

[Steelcan]

Probably. I don't exactly see the need for it. Coming from someone who has faced it all her life and it's due to stupid reasons. So, yes. The answer is yes. Unless the reason it's included is to highlight how terrible and awful and stupid it is.

 

*sigh*

[Darth Krytie]

So, I will be judged as one who condones as well as practices an evil just because I let it exist in my fictional world. Good to know.

 

I'd wonder why it had to be inside your fictional world? Our biases influence our writing all the time. If you wrote about murder or rape, I wouldn't think you were a murder or a rapist. But the ideology? That's different. It depends on how it's protrayed and what it exists within the world for. Why matters to me. If you can't imagine a setting where sexism and discrimination against women doesn't exist, then doesn't that also say something?

 

I'm not just painting dudes unfairly with a broad brush. There's a lot of pervasive and harmful attitudes against women that aren't born of malice at all. It's the subtle every day stuff, like little papercuts...yanno. Stuff women internalise themselves and add to the fray. If you sincerely believe you don't embody and perpetuate any sexist traits, then I'm all for giving you kudos. But maybe you do. And maybe you just don't realise it.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 20 mars 2014 - 05:40 .

[Steelcan]

I'd wonder why it had to be inside your fictional world? Our biases influence our writing all the time. If you wrote about murder or rape, I wouldn't think you were a murder or a rapist. But the ideology? That's different. It depends on how it's protrayed and what it exists within the world. If you can't imagine a setting where sexism and discrimination against women doesn't exist, then doesn't that also say something?

 

I'm not just painting dudes unfairly with a broad brush. There's a lot of pervasive and harmful attitudes against women that aren't born of malice at all. It's the subtle every day stuff, like little papercuts...yanno. Stuff women internalise themselves and add to the fray. If you sincerely believe you don't embody and perpetuate any sexist traits, then I'm all for giving you kudos. But maybe you do. And maybe you just don't realise it.

There is really no pleasing some people I suppose

[Darth Krytie]

There is really no pleasing some people I suppose

Everyone has biases and not everyone is aware of them. I've checked a few of my own time and time again.

[Nefla]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8GpFdJKeYFo

 

Speaking of which, here's a question for you ladies. What if I created a fictional world, and said "Yes, sexism and discrimination against women exist in this world", would you call me a sexist? Just out of curiosity.

 

Depends on how you told your story and how the characters acted. If there was rampant sexism and every female character was just there as a damsel in distress or as a prize for the male hero to have sex with then yes I would think you sexist. If however rampant sexism existed in the world but you still wrote fleshed out female characters who dealt with the crappy hand they'd been given in various ways and maybe overcame their station then no I wouldn't. Not at all.

[Steelcan]

Depends on how you told your story and how the characters acted. If there was rampant sexism and every female character was just there as a damsel in distress or as a prize for the male hero to have sex with then yes I would think you sexist. If however rampant sexism existed in the world but you still wrote fleshed out female characters who dealt with the crappy hand they'd been given in various ways and maybe overcame their station then no I wouldn't. Not at all.

I'm curious what you think of characters like Cersei Lannister then

[Nefla]

I'm curious what you think of characters like Cersei Lannister then

She's a good villain, you can't help but hate her.

[Steelcan]

She's a good villain, you can't help but hate her.

I'd disagree on the "good" part, she doesn't do anything but screw up one issue after another....

 

 

Though I do love to hate her, she's worse than Joffrey IMO

[Zazzerka]

I liked when she showed up at the end of the new 300 movie with the rest of the Spartans to wreck Persian shit. Man, that Cersei.

[Nefla]

I'd disagree on the "good" part, she doesn't do anything but screw up one issue after another....

 

 

Though I do love to hate her, she's worse than Joffrey IMO

I love villains that make you hate them so much and make you super frustrated. It's always more satisfying when you can finally kill them in a game or they are killed by the hero in a show or movie.

[Banxey]

Speaking of which, here's a question for you ladies. What if I created a fictional world, and said "Yes, sexism and discrimination against women exist in this world", would you call me a sexist? Just out of curiosity.

I liked Nefla's answer. It depends on the context.

[Darth Krytie]

Depends on how you told your story and how the characters acted. If there was rampant sexism and every female character was just there as a damsel in distress or as a prize for the male hero to have sex with then yes I would think you sexist. If however rampant sexism existed in the world but you still wrote fleshed out female characters who dealt with the crappy hand they'd been given in various ways and maybe overcame their station then no I wouldn't. Not at all.

You said what I was thinking...only much better. lol. But, yes. This.

[Banxey]

I'd disagree on the "good" part, she doesn't do anything but screw up one issue after another....


Though I do love to hate her, she's worse than Joffrey IMO

Worse than Joffrey? Hmm.. Does it make me a bad person if I can empathise with Cersei a bit? I didn't until A Dance With Dragons where I realised she was dealt a ****ty hand by being born the female twin. Though she was always kind of vindictively stupid. As for Joffrey, he's just a sociopath so there is nothing to empathise with.

[Ispan]

Worse than Joffrey? Hmm.. Does it make me a bad person if I can empathise with Cersei a bit? I didn't until A Dance With Dragons where I realised she was dealt a ****ty hand by being born the female twin. Though she was always kind of vindictively stupid. As for Joffrey, he's just a sociopath so there is nothing to empathise with.

 

Phew, I thought there was something wrong with me when I started feeling empathy for her.  The way she feels trapped and held down simply because she was born with the "wrong genitalia" (I think that's how she puts it)... she's still bat**** crazy but I feel for her.