424 réponses à ce sujet

[Bugsie]

Speaking of which, here's a question for you ladies. What if I created a fictional world, and said "Yes, sexism and discrimination against women exist in this world", would you call me a sexist? Just out of curiosity.

I would say that it depends. World building is not easy and with it carries the assumptions of the perceptions we have of the real world.

Like science fiction, fantasy stories are about the time they are created, no matter when or where the setting. Not the past, not the future not a mystical land - our perceptions are coloured with our own realities.

You can actually portray sexism in novels and worlds without being sexist yourself, it's your story, you don't have to be a vanguard against 'isms. You can also portray excellent female characters within those settings too.

I've been reading a lot of old school science fiction and am constantly confronted with talented writers who write about the most wonderful futuristic worlds in futuristic settings, yet they can't imagine more egalitarian societies where women are equal. However, that is because I live in a world that is more egalitarian than when the books were written. Theirs reflects the time it was created.

In regard to DA we have a modern take of a medieval setting, you wouldn't get a lot of women playing the game if it was unrelentingly grim for women characters in the game (as it definitely would have been in medieval times) and the only way women were portrayed were tired old tropes.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I hate to be that person, but it uses the words "generally" and "most", therefore equal treatment is not universal in Thedas. Plus that is just in Ferelden, as it says. 

[TurretSyndrome]

The point that I was trying to make by posing that question was that you can't just brand the writer a sexist or anything else just because something exists that you hate and is socially unacceptable. 

 

I agree that context determines intent, so without fully understanding them, I don't suggest judging someone or branding them with names.

 

@Bugsie  Agreed. DA is actually much lighter on these matters, compared to say, Berserk. 

[9TailsFox]

The point that I was trying to make by posing that question was that you can't just brand the writer a sexist or anything else just because something exists that you hate and is socially unacceptable. 

 

I agree that context determines intent, so without fully understanding them, I don't suggest judging someone or branding them with names.

 

@Bugsie  Agreed. DA is actually much lighter on these matters, compared to say, Berserk. 

This to call write sexist because How is sexist is ridicules. That the point Howe suppose to be sexist, racists... use any other word which we consider morally wrong and you get Howe. If you hate villain only because he calls you names he succeed.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Or a woman meeting the male Inquisitor and making some sleazy rape-ie comment. To drive the point home that this stuff is ridiculous. We've all had enough.

It would just turn into a flirt option. The difference is in perspective, men are not intimidated by the sexual advances of a woman and rarely turn down sex from an attractive person, and are not the ones being penetrated.

 

If you really wanted to do this it'd have to be from another male, or a hulking amazonian chasing you down with a ******. are you ****** kidding me? I said dilldoh

[Lord Xendria]

It would just turn into a flirt option. The difference is in perspective, men are not intimidated by the sexual advances of a woman and rarely turn down sex from an attractive person, and are not the ones being penetrated.

 

If you really wanted to do this it'd have to be from another male, or a hulking amazonian chasing you down with a ******. are you ****** kidding me? I said dilldoh

 

Yeah, that was my thought as well. That it'd just be considered being flirted with. Which is why I'd really like to know what that scene the devs talked about was, if they were able to make it equally creepy for both genders.

[Lady Nuggins]

So, I will be judged as one who condones as well as practices an evil just because I let it exist in my fictional world. Good to know.

 

I agree with others that it depends on context.  How your world is sexist and why. 

 

Let's look at GoT again.  Westeros is super sexist.  You can barely go two pages without a woman being called a ****** or a wench.  Rape (only ever of women) is referred to regularly, and often brushed off by characters.  Every female character is constantly forced to prove herself, and those female characters are almost always isolated from other women.  And yet it is clear through GRRM's writing that his favorite characters are the ones who have to constantly struggle.  Tyrion faces just as much disrespect for his height as women do for their gender, and he's probably the most popular character in the series.  Jamie isn't interesting until he loses his sword hand, the one thing that made him brave and powerful before.  The female characters are constantly fighting against the world around them, and overcoming obstacles that their male peers do not face, and are shown as stronger, more sympathetic, more interesting, because of it. 

 

GoT is hard for me to read sometimes.  If a lesser writer made a world as sexist as Westeros, I would not be willing to endure it.  But GRRM presents Westeros as awful for ALL his important characters, and makes you sympathise with their struggles to live in this awful place, and so the sexism serves a purpose, and that purpose works well with the story and the characters.

 

Now look at the HBO series.  It is, essentially, the same story, the same setting, the same characters.  But HBO often uses the sexism of Westeros as an excuse to throw titilation on the screen.  That undermines the "sexism for literary purpose" excuse, by making it something to excite modern audiences instead of something that is meant to disgust them. 

 

That is why I would question why most writers--especially fantasy writers, who can literally make up any world and any society that they want--need sexism in their settings.  Is it because they want to create conflict?  Illustrate a point?  Show the negative aspects of a world?  Or is it because they want naked prostitutes sitting in their hero's lap and "this setting is sexist, deal with it" is how they get away with it?

[mopotter]

I just want more gender specific terms. I hated being called "serrah" for both genders in DA2 and I HATE being called "sir" in SWtOR (I don't like being called "my lord" either but it has lore reasons behind it). Ma'am or my lady please :3

I have mixed feelings on this, and probably everything else in life.

 

I didn't mind serrah for both genders, "sir" in SWTOR, yeah, don't care for.  But mostly, I get tired of the LI calling me Hawke, Shepard,  I liked Alistair "my love" and Zev's "my dear".  The only time I call my husband by his name is when he's in another room, or I'm umm unhappy with him about something.  

[Darth Krytie]

I agree with others that it depends on context.  How your world is sexist and why. 

 

Let's look at GoT again.  Westeros is super sexist.  You can barely go two pages without a woman being called a ****** or a wench.  Rape (only ever of women) is referred to regularly, and often brushed off by characters.  Every female character is constantly forced to prove herself, and those female characters are almost always isolated from other women.  And yet it is clear through GRRM's writing that his favorite characters are the ones who have to constantly struggle.  Tyrion faces just as much disrespect for his height as women do for their gender, and he's probably the most popular character in the series.  Jamie isn't interesting until he loses his sword hand, the one thing that made him brave and powerful before.  The female characters are constantly fighting against the world around them, and overcoming obstacles that their male peers do not face, and are shown as stronger, more sympathetic, more interesting, because of it. 

 

GoT is hard for me to read sometimes.  If a lesser writer made a world as sexist as Westeros, I would not be willing to endure it.  But GRRM presents Westeros as awful for ALL his important characters, and makes you sympathise with their struggles to live in this awful place, and so the sexism serves a purpose, and that purpose works well with the story and the characters.

 

Now look at the HBO series.  It is, essentially, the same story, the same setting, the same characters.  But HBO often uses the sexism of Westeros as an excuse to throw titilation on the screen.  That undermines the "sexism for literary purpose" excuse, by making it something to excite modern audiences instead of something that is meant to disgust them. 

 

That is why I would question why most writers--especially fantasy writers, who can literally make up any world and any society that they want--need sexism in their settings.  Is it because they want to create conflict?  Illustrate a point?  Show the negative aspects of a world?  Or is it because they want naked prostitutes sitting in their hero's lap and "this setting is sexist, deal with it" is how they get away with it?

 

These are all excellent points. I admit when I first answered the question, I was sort of in a negative space about sexism and didn't give it a proper thoughtful response.

 

I was only ever able to get through partway of the first GoT book and had to put it down. I'm not often willing to suffer rape as a plot device and what's in Dragon Age is seriously my limit. And only even then because it's not graphic and done in a triggering way for me. GoT gave me nightmares about it.

 

The TV series is even worse, because they did add a lot of things by way of rape and sexism that were really unnecessary, and thus I don't watch it either. (My friends do and warned me away.)

 

When compared to those settings, Dragon Age is positively tame in comparison. There were only ten, maybe fifteen times when I side-eyed something either my Warden/Hawke had to say as a woman or something that was said to my Warden/Hawke...but everything can be improved.

[Darth Krytie]

I have mixed feelings on this, and probably everything else in life.

 

I didn't mind serrah for both genders, "sir" in SWTOR, yeah, don't care for.  But mostly, I get tired of the LI calling me Hawke, Shepard,  I liked Alistair "my love" and Zev's "my dear".  The only time I call my husband by his name is when he's in another room, or I'm umm unhappy with him about something.  

 

I agree. I always thought it felt odd to have your romantic partner refer to you by your last name.

[Lady Nuggins]

This to call write sexist because How is sexist is ridicules. That the point Howe suppose to be sexist, racists... use any other word which we consider morally wrong and you get Howe. If you hate villain only because he calls you names he succeed.

 

See, I'm less bothered by Howe being insulting than I am by the many, many other points in Origins when people act surprised that you're female.

 

"I didn't know the Wardens took women."

 

"I don't know how to address a woman."

 

"You're a woman?"

[mopotter]

I think it's hard.  I don't mind one or two comments if I have a number of choices to respond with.  My favorite dialog from Me1 was when my Fem Shepard talks to Hawkin who calls her princess.  I ignored him until I hit " Shepard: I'd rather drink acid after chewing on a razor blade. and call me that again and you'll be picking your teeth up off the floor.  

 

I tend to think there will always be someone who has a problem with women and as long as I can make some kind of comment back, I don't mind.  I agree, some comments about the male character should be added, but while I'm trying to think of an insult for my male character and even found a top 10 insult page.  (you can find anything with google  ) they are all pretty lame.  "you'll never be the man your mother was".   

[Nefla]

I have mixed feelings on this, and probably everything else in life.
 
I didn't mind serrah for both genders, "sir" in SWTOR, yeah, don't care for.  But mostly, I get tired of the LI calling me Hawke, Shepard,  I liked Alistair "my love" and Zev's "my dear".  The only time I call my husband by his name is when he's in another room, or I'm umm unhappy with him about something.

I definitely hope LIs give you a pet name or something. When they call you by last name or title it may as well be them saying "I love you sir/ma'am." Very strange.

[Mes]

It would just turn into a flirt option. The difference is in perspective, men are not intimidated by the sexual advances of a woman and rarely turn down sex from an attractive person

 

Firstly I didn't say anything about the woman being attractive, secondly, not to harp on you too badly but... The bolded part is a hugely incorrect and awful assumption and is one of the many symptoms of our patriarchal society. Men get raped by other men and by women. Rape is not exclusive to "penetration", either. But many men feel they cannot come out and talk about their experiences (and heal) because of comments like this that assume men will always enjoy unwanted sexual attention or advances. It's just not true and I would encourage you to delve deeper into this topic and maybe do some research. Because the offhand comment that you made can hurt a lot of people who have had these experiences that have effectively been invalidated.

 

Also... I friggin love your username. 

[TurretSyndrome]

@ Lady Nuggins   The problem I see here is not about you people questioning the level of sexism, but the existence of it. No artist ever needs to justify the existence of something in their art to another. That is part of the creative freedom they are given. The freedom to create without self recrimination, judgement or fear. 

 

When I asked the question "would I be sexist for creating a world which consists sexism?", I was given the answer by the OP, "yes, you would". I'm not saying that just because I can create something it immediately gives me the right to freely cross whatever social boundaries I may come across and expect everyone to just take it. I'm saying that the mere existence of it should not be the reason for your judgement. The difference is subtle but very important.

[Mes]

Sexism in a game is art now? 

[Lady Nuggins]

@ Lady Nuggins   The problem I see here is not about you people questioning the level of sexism, but the existence of it. No artist ever needs to justify the existence of something in their art to another. That is part of the creative freedom they are given. The freedom to create without self recrimination, judgement or fear. 

 

When I asked the question "would I be sexist for creating a world which consists sexism?", I was given the answer by the OP, "yes, you would". I'm not saying that just because I can create something it immediately gives me the right to freely cross whatever social boundaries I may come across and expect everyone to just take it. I'm saying that the mere existence of it should not be the reason for your judgement. The difference is subtle but very important.

 

I disagree, as both a writer and a consumer.  The moment you publish your work, it is not free from judgement or criticism. 

[Darth Krytie]

@ Lady Nuggins   The problem I see here is not about you people questioning the level of sexism, but the existence of it. No artist ever needs to justify the existence of something in their art to another. That is part of the creative freedom they are given. The freedom to create without self recrimination, judgement or fear. 

 

When I asked the question "would I be sexist for creating a world which consists sexism?", I was given the answer by the OP, "yes, you would". I'm not saying that just because I can create something it immediately gives me the right to freely cross whatever social boundaries I may come across and expect everyone to just take it. I'm saying that the mere existence of it should not be the reason for your judgement. The difference is subtle but very important.

 

I've said multiple times in this thread since that I was being too flippant in my first reply to you and should have given a more thoughtful response, in case you missed it.

[TurretSyndrome]

I disagree, as both a writer and a consumer.  The moment you publish your work, it is not free from judgement or criticism. 

 

I was not referring to publishing the work. I was referring to it's creation, that's why it's creative freedom. And of course, once it's shared, it is subject to criticism.

[TurretSyndrome]

I've said multiple times in this thread since that I was being too flippant in my first reply to you and should have given a more thoughtful response, in case you missed it.

 

Yes, I certainly missed it. I stopped after reading that comment this morning, only just looked at the thread now. 

[Lady Nuggins]

I was not referring to publishing the work. I was referring to it's creation, that's why it's creative freedom. And of course, once it's shared, it is subject to criticism.

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing against, then?  Nobody is going to criticize you for something they have never seen.  Are you saying that "us people" are infringing on your creative rights?

[TurretSyndrome]

I'm not sure what you're arguing against, then?  Nobody is going to criticize you for something they have never seen.  Are you saying that "us people" are infringing on your creative rights?

 

My argument was only against people judging the writer for the existence of an element such as sexism in the game, nothing else. The vibe that I was getting here was that it just shouldn't exist in the world in the first place, and I was arguing against that. 

 

I'm assuming that's been cleared now so you can get to back to actual purpose of this thread, which is how OP and all who feel that way, don't want to see sexism against women in DA:I(and any future games?), as it's not worth whatever realism it may provide.

 

And sorry for referring to you as "you people", I did not mean it in a taunting way or anything. I forget to filter my posts sometimes.

[9TailsFox]

Don't really care. And since we have races back I prefer if they focus on it.

[Mes]

My argument was only against people judging the writer for the existence of an element such as sexism in the game, nothing else. The vibe that I was getting here was that it just shouldn't exist in the world in the first place, and I was arguing against that. 

 

The vibe I'm getting is you coming into this thread and throwing around reasons supporting the existence of sexism towards women in this game, citing things such as "medieval times" and "art." We are fighting for equality here, and to me it seems you would love things to remain biased towards women. Maybe you can start your own thread where you can discuss the female gender and how sexism should continue? I don't think this is the correct thread for you.

 

Ugh. I can't help but get a little frustrated, in all honesty. Some guy always has to come in and say "well actually there's no problem here" when the rest of us are trying to explain our issues. 

[Gregolian]

In terms of conversation it might be a budget thing.  If you want people to react differently to someone who is a human, Quanari, dwarf, or elf and then add on top of that if they are male or female and one of those species there is a lot of variables in there and a lot of "re"recording voice acting that might bump into budget issues.

 

Would I like for that to be in there?  Hell yeah, it'll make each playthrough with a different type of character extremely unique.  I kinda doubt unless it's in right now we will get it.  Seems to close to release even if this game won't be out till September at the earliest.