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[SerTabris]

With regard to races, I noticed some times in Origins where NPCs had something to say about you being a woman, but only if you were human, as sometimes their race-based lines took place instead of the gendered ones.

[XMissWooX]

I actually don't mind my female characters being ridiculed for their sex as long as I'm given the option to show up the offender by punching them in the face (or something equally as impressive).
Daveth gets a free pass purely because the way he says "not a *woman*" is absolutely hilarious (plus I know he also comments on elf or dwarf Wardens).

But I can understand why people wouldn't want to have to deal with these sort of scenarios whilst enjoying their hobby, so it could be good to tone down the bias, or else make it equal between both sexes.

[Stelae]

Sexism in a game is art now? 

As it's been mansplained to me, no matter what fantasy elements you put into a Medieval setting -- you know, dragons, zombies, fae, whatever -- in order for it to be realistic, you have to keep the sexism.  Because apparently that's the thing that makes it all gritty and real.  Or something. 

 

And when I point out that forensic anthropologists are actually finding that some of the Viking graves with swords and armour have skeletons with female pelvises in them, for starters, or that a woman of high status would be shown far more respect, and be assumed far more capable, than a man of low status, or the fact that Elizabeth 1 had a convenient set of armour when she decided to go rally the troops against the Spanish Armada, I get a lot of handwaving and "Oh, those are exceptions ... "  as though actual documented history doesn't count.

 

And then I point them to articles like We have always fought.  But even that doesn't help.

[Nefla]

Maybe it's just me, but I LIKE sexism in games as long as you can overcome it and prove it wrong. Ex:

 

Random guy: "hey! women can't be knights, I'll put you in your place wench!" (tries to hit female character)

Female character: "lol" (easily beats up random guy)

 

It portrays sexist people as stupid and sexism as a lame and undesirable trait but also lets males playing female characters experience it and think "hey it isn't fun to be treated like this."

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Sexism in a game is art now? 

Sure it is. The world and setting is the author's creation and anything they choose to put it in is their art. Even unpleasant things like racism, slavery, homophobia, murder, genocide, infanticide, rape and to a lesser extent, sexism. It doesn't mean you have to enjoy it but I'd only be offended if I got the impression the author personally looked down upon women.

 

For example, the Mass Effect series has little to no sexism. I couldn't care less. However, I find the objectification of women mildly offensive.

 

But how is dragon age sexist exactly? It's an extremely pc world with only speciesism and classism. Forget speculations on how sexist medieval times supposedly were or were not and just compare it to current times- Women are allowed in front line combat and positions of power, earn equal wage gold, may be as naked as she wishes in public, are allowed abortions(presumably), don't have to put up with sandwich jokes, can sleep with whoever she wants, don't face genital mutilation, and most of all, don't have Robin Thicke blowing smoke in their faces.

 

little things like a women trumping a man physically will always be humourous due to innate physiological differences. Unless we wanna pretend that like the whole gender thing is a myth and we're really asaris

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Most of all though, I don't care if it's sexist or misandric or misogynistic or not, but please don't encourage Bioware to be lazy and make dialogue as generic as possible for everyone. Who am I kidding they've probably already done that

[Nefla]

little things like a women trumping a man physically will always be humourous due to innate physiological differences. Unless we wanna pretend that like the whole gender thing is a myth and we're really asaris

 Depends on the woman, the man, and the scenario. Small skinny untrained, unarmed girl beating up a male body builder: lol wtf? Large muscular woman beating up 90lb Japanese guy? Believable. Woman with knife manages to stab unarmed guy before he strangles her? Believable. Woman with combat/Aikido training beats guy using his own momentum/strength against him? Believable. Etc...It's all up to circumstance, nothing is true across the board.

[Mes]

Sure it is. The world and setting is the author's creation and anything they choose to put it in is their art. Even unpleasant things like racism, slavery, homophobia, murder, genocide, infanticide, rape and to a lesser extent, sexism. It doesn't mean you have to enjoy it but I'd only be offended if I got the impression the author personally looked down upon women.

 

For example, the Mass Effect series has little to no sexism. I couldn't care less. However, I find the objectification of women mildly offensive.

 

But how is dragon age sexist exactly? It's an extremely pc world with only speciesism and classism. Forget speculations on how sexist medieval times supposedly were or were not and just compare it to current times- Women are allowed in front line combat and positions of power, earn equal wage gold, may be as naked as she wishes in public, are allowed abortions(presumably), don't have to put up with sandwich jokes, can sleep with whoever she wants, don't face genital mutilation, and most of all, don't have Robin Thicke blowing smoke in their faces.

 

little things like a women trumping a man physically will always be humourous due to innate physiological differences. Unless we wanna pretend that like the whole gender thing is a myth and we're really asaris

 

What does that have to do with better dialogue in DA? 

 

I don't know about you, but I come into contact with quite varied people of both genders, including very large women and very small men. Unlike the world of DA, in real life here we've all got all sorts of various body types and muscle masses. There are plenty of women out there who can beat the crap out of plenty of men, and I'm sure those men in those situations don't find it "hilarious."

 

I don't care if it's sexist or misandric or misogynistic or not

 

I can certainly see that! 

[Mes]

 please don't encourage Bioware to be lazy and make dialogue as generic as possible 

 

.... Not quite the point of this thread. 

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

 Depends on the woman, the man, and the scenario. Small skinny untrained, unarmed girl beating up a male body builder: lol wtf? Large muscular woman beating up 90lb Japanese guy? Believable. Woman with knife manages to stab unarmed guy before he strangles her? Believable. Woman with combat/Aikido training beats guy using his own momentum/strength against him? Believable. Etc...It's all up to circumstance, nothing is true across the board.

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out, but no of course I don't mean in every case. Anyway bicep size has little to do with combat ability, Ann Wolf would KO most bodybuilders regardless of gender. I'm just wondering why on earth you bring the japanese into this.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

What does that have to do with better dialogue in DA? 

 

I don't know about you, but I come into contact with quite varied people of both genders, including very large women and very small men. Unlike the world of DA, in real life here we've all got all sorts of various body types and muscle masses. There are plenty of women out there who can beat the crap out of plenty of men, and I'm sure those men in those situations don't find it "hilarious."

 

 

I can certainly see that! 

What? I was responding to your comment that sexism in game means it's not art. and then I go on to explain the world of dragon age isn't sexist anyway.

[Mes]

What? I was responding to your comment that sexism in game means it's not art. and then I go on to explain the world of dragon age isn't sexist anyway.

 

DA's world shouldn't be sexist but small touches here and there point to it being so. Hence the existence of this thread. You personally not finding sexism in the game doesn't mean others don't?  I may need a break from here.

[Nefla]

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out, but no of course I don't mean in every case. Anyway bicep size has little to do with combat ability, Ann Wolf would KO most bodybuilders regardless of gender. I'm just wondering why on earth you bring the japanese into this.

 

Hey, I don't know you. There are plenty of people on these very forums who think that no woman could ever beat any man for any reason in a fight and when you said "a woman trumping a man physically will always be humorous" what am I supposed to think? Always=in every case.

 

As for the Japanese mention, a former coworker of mine had popped up into my head. He was tiny and Japanese.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Oh alright. Well by always, I meant through time and space, aliens not withstanding(mass effect seems to forget this).

 

But yea I don't mean a specialised scenario, just in everyday life, like if a friend of yours beats a dude arm wrestling, that would be funny, yes?

 

I think gender equality is not something that will ever be 100%, nor should it. You should treat everyone with the same amount of love and respect, but that doesn't mean men and women are genetically identical. For example the popular argument that "men should be able to hit women too", or fitness requirements to join the police force.

[Ispan]

Oh alright. Well by always, I meant through time and space, aliens not withstanding(mass effect seems to forget this).

 

But yea I don't mean a specialised scenario, just in everyday life, like if a friend of yours beats a dude arm wrestling, that would be funny, yes?

 

I'm sure it's funny to people who think being compared to a girl is an insult.

[Stelae]

 

For example, the Mass Effect series has little to no sexism. I couldn't care less. However, I find the objectification of women mildly offensive.

 

But how is dragon age sexist exactly? It's an extremely pc world with only speciesism and classism.

little things like a women trumping a man physically will always be humourous due to innate physiological differences. Unless we wanna pretend that like the whole gender thing is a myth and we're really asaris

If you are wondering whether a piece of dialogue is sexist, try reversing the genders, and seeing if it makes any sense, or sounds really stupid. 

 

"I didn't think they made male Grey Wardens."

"I didn't expect you to be a man."  "How about you stop thinking of me as a man."

"I swear, I'm the bravest one here, and I'm a man."

 

The world may or may not be PC, but certain in-game dialogue is, in fact, sexist.  And precisely because women in Thedas can rule and fight and do whatever the heck they please, it's also internally inconsistent. 

 

Also, in fighting, it's not always the chap with the big muscles who wins.  In fact, there are a lot of martial arts and fighting techniques where you get to use someone's lumbering bulk against them, and make the most of things like precision and training, even in hand-to-hand combat.  This goes double for things like archery and rapier, which rely on speed and accuracy rather than strength. 

[Mes]

 

I think gender equality is not something that will ever be 100%, nor should it. You should treat everyone with the same amount of love and respect, but that doesn't mean men and women are genetically identical. For example the popular argument that "men should be able to hit women too", or fitness requirements to join the police force.

 

Okay I think we've got different ideas of "gender equality" here. You mean it in terms of physical strength, whereas I think most of us mean equality in a social sense. 

 

The average man being stronger than the average woman in real life has little to do with sexist dialogue in DA. 

 

Strength in general has nothing to do (or shouldn't have anything to do) with social equality. 

 

I'm getting confused at what exactly your point is in regard to this thread.

[Stelae]

Most of all though, I don't care if it's sexist or misandric or misogynistic or not, but please don't encourage Bioware to be lazy and make dialogue as generic as possible for everyone. Who am I kidding they've probably already done that

Right, because asking for non-sexist dialogue means that there's no way it won't be bland.  Which is, of course, exactly what we are asking for here.  When we say "better gender specific dialogue" we really mean "dialogue that would make Stephanie Meyers (sp?) roll her eyes in disbelief." 

 

Have a bit more faith in the writers; they have always done kick-ass characters, with great dialogue. 

[slimgrin]

In the past two games, there aren't overly large divergences in the dialogue or way the NPCs react to you based on your gender. (And when I say based on gender, it's usually specifically about a player's femaleness). However, I've noticed that they're predominately negative ones.

 

Like comments on you being a lady warden. Or NPCs making crude comments about you being a lady. I don't actually recall anyone reacting negatively to a male Warden or Hawke for being male.

 

Anyhow, I'd really like if as Inquisitor, I don't encounter any disrespect purely based on the gender of my character. Given the world has a matriarchal religious society and many women in power in various places, it seems odd. And if there must be disrepect to the Inquisitor if she's female, then equalise it and have male Inquisitors face a similar problem in another area.

 

It detracts from the enjoyment of being able to be a kickass woman in a videogame if you encounter disrespect you could avoid by playing as a male.

 

You've taken the social crusading bit to a new level. Congrats. I didn't think it could be done. All I know is when I play an RPG, I don't expect or even want to be pampered the whole time.

[Nefla]

But yea I don't mean a specialised scenario, just in everyday life, like if a friend of yours beats a dude arm wrestling, that would be funny, yes?

No, I see no reason for it to be funny. That's like saying "wouldn't it be funny if you saw a guy buy groceries?" My brother weighs over 300lbs and I can lift and carry him if I need to. If there was a fire I would save his life, hilarious! Also, everything is a "specialized scenario" in the real world, every circumstance is unique and involves unpredictable factors.

 

Back on topic, it would be awesome if there were some positive dialogues for being women as well as negatives for being men. You'd think the Chantry would favor women at least.

[KaiserShep]

There is at least the one instance in DA:O when the team is taken to Haven. If you have Leliana in the group (and I believe Alistair), it will be commented on how it's odd that this town has a man running its Chantry, which, coincidentally, also happens to have some brutal human sacrificing taking place.

[Stelae]

There is at least the one instance in DA:O when the team is taken to Haven. If you have Leliana in the group (and I believe Alistair), it will be commented on how it's odd that this town has a man running its Chantry, which, coincidentally, also happens to have some brutal human sacrificing taking place.

Well, yes.  Because, as opposed to being fighters or mages or Grey Wardens, it's unusual to see a man as the head of a Chantry.  Their religion is run by women.  Although Sebastian gets to say the chant, so I'm not sure that only women celebrate their equivalent of Mass.  Also, I suspect the brutal human sacrifice thing has more to do with them being Dragon Cultists, and perhaps less to do with their gender. 

 

If there were male and female priests, and they remarked on it, it'd be on par with a remark about a female Grey Warden. 

[KaiserShep]

Well, I did say it was coincidental In any case, it seemed to stack up among the things that were considered odd about the town. It was like bizarroville.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

 

Back on topic, it would be awesome if there were some positive dialogues for being women as well as negatives for being men. You'd think the Chantry would favor women at least.

My brother weighs over 300lbs and I can lift and carry him if I need to. If there was a fire I would save his life, hilarious!

Yes, a large man riding piggyback on a thin woman would be a pretty funny sight. Stop taking everything so seriously

[pallascedar]

As it's been mansplained to me, no matter what fantasy elements you put into a Medieval setting -- you know, dragons, zombies, fae, whatever -- in order for it to be realistic, you have to keep the sexism.  Because apparently that's the thing that makes it all gritty and real.  Or something. 

 

And when I point out that forensic anthropologists are actually finding that some of the Viking graves with swords and armour have skeletons with female pelvises in them, for starters, or that a woman of high status would be shown far more respect, and be assumed far more capable, than a man of low status, or the fact that Elizabeth 1 had a convenient set of armour when she decided to go rally the troops against the Spanish Armada, I get a lot of handwaving and "Oh, those are exceptions ... "  as though actual documented history doesn't count.

 

And then I point them to articles like We have always fought.  But even that doesn't help.

 

Of course, history was filled with powerful and interesting women, but that they existed doesn't change the fact that our historical world was crazily sexist. I think writing a perfect world where gender is irrelevant just doesn't work in a dark fantasy like Dragon Age. Part of why I find Dragon Age so interesting is that many of the problems that Thedas faces can be related in some way to ideals that we face in the real world. The mage-templar conflict might not have relevance to our world, but the questions it raises about justice, freedom and safety are all worth considering.

 

Those sexist comments in game "I didn't realize they made women into Grey Wardens" force us to confront the reality that Thedas, while quite progressive, isn't perfect on the gender equality front. I get that a lot of people can play games to escape reality, and it can stink in a major way when you bring a nasty bit of reality into a game that you wanted left out of it. But Dragon Age is filled to the brim with racism and classism, and I just don't feel like sexism is stepping over a line. Of course, I can't relate as well because I'm male, so I understand that I'm speaking from a different place here.

 

On a slightly similar note: I liked Gamlen's off-hand comment about Fenris and my M!Hawke "You and the elf huh? I guess I don't have to ask which one of you's the girl." It's nasty, rude, and homophobic and made me want to punch Gamlen in the face. But I liked it because it spoke in a small way to the struggles that I've faced regarding my sexuality in my real life. It makes the world feel more alive that prejudices that I see in our society can be mirrored in the comments of one asinine uncle. You could argue that it's homophobic and unnecessary (and it is), but I fail to see how it doesn't fit in the world.