424 réponses à ce sujet

[oceanicsurvivor]

Sure it is. The world and setting is the author's creation and anything they choose to put it in is their art. Even unpleasant things like racism, slavery, homophobia, murder, genocide, infanticide, rape and to a lesser extent, sexism. It doesn't mean you have to enjoy it but I'd only be offended if I got the impression the author personally looked down upon women.

 

For example, the Mass Effect series has little to no sexism. I couldn't care less. However, I find the objectification of women mildly offensive.

 

But how is dragon age sexist exactly? It's an extremely pc world with only speciesism and classism. Forget speculations on how sexist medieval times supposedly were or were not and just compare it to current times- Women are allowed in front line combat and positions of power, earn equal wage gold, may be as naked as she wishes in public, are allowed abortions(presumably), don't have to put up with sandwich jokes, can sleep with whoever she wants, don't face genital mutilation, and most of all, don't have Robin Thicke blowing smoke in their faces.

 

little things like a women trumping a man physically will always be humourous due to innate physiological differences. Unless we wanna pretend that like the whole gender thing is a myth and we're really asaris

 

Not to get into an existential discussion about 'what is art?' or anything but...crap its prolly gonna go there a bit...Ok: existing doesn't make something art.

 

Lets use everyones favorite examples: Call of Duty and Twilight. Entertainment? Sure, for some people. Art? Not really, no. There is a difference between pop culture created merely for the purpose of being paid for and consumed and between things that are at the very least trying to say something or evoke a substantive feeling while they make money.

 

So, saying 'hey, I wrote this story about genocide, homophobia, and sexism'...doesn't make it art. Now, if your story was looking at the way people othered and dehumanized individuals, then yeah, art. Even if you're murdering zombies while you deal with the genocide, sexism, and homophobia, it is the greater context that helps define art. And even then art isn't above critique. Ever. People try to say impactful things and fail, fall into their own traps etc all the time. You can try to say something antisexism and fall into sexist storytelling traps/cliches easily.

 

If you write a story and the sexism in it is unintentional, if you aren't trying to say anything about the world or specific characters with overtly sexist statements, then the inclusion of such elements indicates a lack of conscious processing of the sexism the author sees (or even experiences) on a daily basis. It doesn't make it part of 'art'. If it is in there simply to be there, without any purpose then it is wildly problematic. For instance: the massive underlying tone of abse the main relationship of Twilight has. This is totally, embarrassingly unintentional from the author. You can't claim the inclusion of horrors like rape and slavery, handle them poorly and then protect it with the claim of 'but its art'.

 

I don't know how to do spoiler tags, but I'm about to mention a video of people discussing the ending of MSGV: Ground Zeroes so if that's a problem don't read until the bolded line:

 

The ending featured a large amount of violence against a female character. IGN posted a vid with Lucy O'Brien and a male colleague discussing the vid. The guy didn't really feel too impacted by the violence that ended the game but Lucy did. And she mentioned how it sort of came across as a senseless, shocking moment where you throw a female character under the bus for the sake of it. Now maybe the MSG series is art, however, the sexism or violence against women present in the series being used as a catalyst for the main dude to move the plot forward is just senseless and LAZY writing that everyone here has seen a million times (girl gets injured/hurt dies so the dude can cry meaningfully and swear vengence). And thats ALL. That is literally the only reason it happened; that and so the (male) author/creator/writer can say 'look how  creative and dark and edgy and original I'm being, hurting women...so violently...to advance the plot...its dark...art'. This isn't excusable or admissable even if the overall series is art/artistic. Including things, particularly things like sexual violence etc requires there to be a greater purpose for it to even have a chance of being a worthwhile/justifiable inclusion. And again, I think Lucy said it fairly well. (although I got the feeling she was being extrodinarily careful with her words to avoid causing a massive uproar b/c...its IGN )

 

BOLDED

 

Also, gender is a myth/social construct. Biological sex isn't, but gender is. Important distinction.

 

And yeah, it'd be nice if the games didn't feel the need to remind me I'm a girl every two minutes. (I kinda knew, what with that whole character selection thing I did in the beginning). Its rather irritating, and made even more jarring once I've played through as a guy too, because then I'm reminded that they actually had to spend extra time on reworking lines/adding/spending resources JUST to remind and insult me. And to the best of my recollection it has never served an actual in-game purpose.

 

And as for sexism in Thedas...I expect it to be there because of the setting yeah. But I expect that because I have never seen a writer/creator design a high-fantasy world  where it wasn't an element. I don't know if I can even truly comprehend what that looks like. It's an interesting challenge though! And the fact that I don't know what that fantasy world would look like doesn't mean that it wouldn't be an awesome conflict rich world full of interesting characters. The traces of sexism in Thedas could be removed without it negatively impacting the series I'd think. (Sexism isn't part of the world the way it is in say, Game of Thrones. You take it out of Thedas, everyone maintains their rank/status and can go back to dealing with the Veil Tear).

 

Edit: holy crap that got long...I am so sorry.

[Bugsie]

You've taken the social crusading bit to a new level. Congrats. I didn't think it could be done. All I know is when I play an RPG, I don't expect or even want to be pampered the whole time.

I'm pretty sure mocking the OP for social crusading is one of the weakest ways to make your argument against what they're asking to occur in game.

As far as I can see, requesting a female inquisitor have reactions in a more gender neutral tone or not have negative connotations associated with their gender is not pampering, especially if conversations don't play out the same way or have negative connotations attached to them when you play as a male inquisitor.

I don't expect to be 'pampered' but I do expect that the same standards be applied to both female and male versions of the inquisitor.

[Ziggy]

I recently replayed DA:O and i so agree with this. So many people are like "omg you're a woman???!!!" after the third one I really wanted to punch the next person who said it. Maybe they could leave it in if they give *punch* as a possible response to that idiotic rhetorical question.

[smoke and mirrors]

First of all i have to say i am not a woman so i haven`t experienced the disrespect that the woman are talking about here and i hope this isn`t viewed as being disrespectful .

 

In DAO when you went to help Redcliffe and had to speak to Mordock , i like how when he was disrespectful to me ( as a woman ) and then Morrigan added that i was a mage as well . I thought it was rubbing his face into it , a mage and  a woman here to fix up the mess he and the town was in .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If you are wondering whether a piece of dialogue is sexist, try reversing the genders, and seeing if it makes any sense, or sounds really stupid. 

 

"I didn't think they made male Grey Wardens."

"I didn't expect you to be a man."  "How about you stop thinking of me as a man."

"I swear, I'm the bravest one here, and I'm a man."

I have to admit, the first one about the Grey Wardens works. The Grey Wardens could be perceived as an all-female order of knights. 

The other two, yeah those seem weird. 

[Vapaa]

 

Those sexist comments in game "I didn't realize they made women into Grey Wardens" force us to confront the reality that Thedas, while quite progressive, isn't perfect on the gender equality front.

 

I support sexist remarks, if in return we can either smack the culprit, behead him/her, burn him/her to ashes or leave him/her to his/her problems; one just doesn't badmounth the Inquisitor, especially in front of his/her eminence, without consequences.

 

If others are going to be insensitive jerks, I claim the right to be one too.

[KaiserShep]

Sexist remarks can never really be all that prevalent in a world that's used to having plenty of knights, guards and templars' roles be occupied by women already. Maybe among the more scummy folk that we're probably going to kill or beat up anyway, but from people in a position of greater influence, it makes less sense. It made sense when Howe made comments to a female Cousland as being Bryce's little spitfire "playing the man", because he was also doing this from a position of seniority to add to his inflated sense of self. It was made better by the fact that he was most certainly going to die. In this case, it served more to make his character insidious than to frame the state of the general outlook people have of women in Thedas.

[Darth Krytie]

You've taken the social crusading bit to a new level. Congrats. I didn't think it could be done. All I know is when I play an RPG, I don't expect or even want to be pampered the whole time.

*in the voice of Dulce de Launcet* Oh, no! Mockery, however will I cope?  I know I'm supposed to dredge up some sort of indignation or have to apply some salve for that burn, but really I lack the will to do so. Every single time people talk about equality, some genius brings up the term 'pandering' to describe it. Ironic considering the fact that the people who are already benefiting from the situation are the ones who are being pandered to... How else would you describe one group receiving almost all of the consideration, almost all of the marketing, almost all of the focus, and almost all of the entire market as gaming as a whole? The ones who get their male protags designed first and dialogue designed with them in mind first? That's pandering.  Me saying "I'd rather not have semi-lore inconsistent sexism in dialogue I can avoid playing as a dude" is not asking for pandering anymore than asking for better combat tactics or mounts or the return of the arcane warrior is...and I'm sure the Devs would even agree that my request, in and of itself, isn't asking anymore of them than any other request, regardless if they will heed it.

 

edited: I realise you wrote 'pampered' instead of 'pandered' but it amounts to the same thing, in the end, and really doesn't change my reply in anyway.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 21 mars 2014 - 11:21 .

[mopotter]

 Depends on the woman, the man, and the scenario. Small skinny untrained, unarmed girl beating up a male body builder: lol wtf? Large muscular woman beating up 90lb Japanese guy? Believable. Woman with knife manages to stab unarmed guy before he strangles her? Believable. Woman with combat/Aikido training beats guy using his own momentum/strength against him? Believable. Etc...It's all up to circumstance, nothing is true across the board.

I remember when Gabby Giffords was shot, a 61 year old women was among the people who stopped the gunman.  She went after the magazine while he was trying to reload.  And they had a story about a 71 year old grandmother hitting some jewel thief's with her handbag because she got mad.  Just about anything is possible,  

 

i just want to be able to react if someone says something obnoxious.  I might ignore it, I might make say a smart ass comment back or I might pin them against a handy wall with my magic, blade or fist, if they give me the options.  

[In Exile]

 

I agree, I don't think DA as a whole is sexist, and this thread brings up a number of ways in which it portrays gender equality.  The more we talk about this, the more it makes the negative dialogue for women seem out of place, except in a few select places.

 

I think you're right that to an extent sexist dialogue is out of place, but I think part of it is that sexist characters are quite clearly portrayed in a negative way in DA:O. Having a character be sexist is like having one be a racist (or a speciest) - it's a way to emphasize that this character is bad ™. Obviously the ideal is to not have this happen, particularly because it says poor things about our society, where slurs against one gender are overrepresented because of IRL beliefs (it also doesn't make sense in the setting because there gender equality is not a recent thing). 

 

@ Lady Nuggins   The problem I see here is not about you people questioning the level of sexism, but the existence of it. No artist ever needs to justify the existence of something in their art to another. That is part of the creative freedom they are given. The freedom to create without self recrimination, judgement or fear. 

 

When I asked the question "would I be sexist for creating a world which consists sexism?", I was given the answer by the OP, "yes, you would". I'm not saying that just because I can create something it immediately gives me the right to freely cross whatever social boundaries I may come across and expect everyone to just take it. I'm saying that the mere existence of it should not be the reason for your judgement. The difference is subtle but very important.

People should absolutely be judged and have to justify the existence of something in their art. If someone, say, paints something called "Heroic Oppressors of Repulsive Minorities", they better be prepared to justify why that exists in the first place. 

 

 

Of course, history was filled with powerful and interesting women, but that they existed doesn't change the fact that our historical world was crazily sexist. I think writing a perfect world where gender is irrelevant just doesn't work in a dark fantasy like Dragon Age. Part of why I find Dragon Age so interesting is that many of the problems that Thedas faces can be related in some way to ideals that we face in the real world. The mage-templar conflict might not have relevance to our world, but the questions it raises about justice, freedom and safety are all worth considering.

 

 

So why isn't there a call for a world where men are oppressed? Where men aren't allowed into high status positions, or allowed to own property? Whenever people talk about "dark fantasy", it's all about how it has to adhere to this historical notion of what sexism was - filtered through our own modern lens of appropriate gender roles - and never about flipping the power dynamic. 

[Mes]

Yes, a large man riding piggyback on a thin woman would be a pretty funny sight. Stop taking everything so seriously

 

I think you're done here. Sorry. 

 

 I think writing a perfect world where gender is irrelevant just doesn't work in a dark fantasy like Dragon Age. 

 

 

With respect, I 100% disagree with this comment. If we re-created DAO, for instance, and just removed those little touches of sexism, would anyone friggin' notice? Would someone actually sit there and think "Wait a minute, something's not right. This strange man isn't leering inappropriately at my female character. I am suddenly not as immersed in this game as I could be"? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. I mean... do you, really, think it wouldn't work?

 

Here's a thought - why don't we try it, and THEN see. Rather than making women subject to this BS on a continuous basis because reasons, just try creating a game where it doesn't exist at all to see these supposed ramifications of dropped sales or less customer satisfaction. 

[Lady Nuggins]

But Dragon Age is filled to the brim with racism and classism, and I just don't feel like sexism is stepping over a line.

 

I'm gonna stop you right there.  Dragon Age is filled to the brim with fantasy racism.  It is filled with people oppressing elves.  It is not filled with real life racism.  Nobody in Thedas treats Isabella badly for having dark skin.  They don't seem to even notice that she has dark skin.  From what we know of Vivienne so far, she is in a position of power and wealth.  She is a black woman.  I doubt this is unusual. 

 

Being called "knife ears" or "oxman" in the game will not hurt anybody playing this game.  Because those insults have no real world connotations for us.  They do not relate to oppression that any real life player experiences.  On a meta level, we can discuss how the Dalish being stripped of their traditional culture or the city elves being forced to live in the slums relates to racism in the real world, but it is not the racism of our world.

 

The same cannot be said for women being insulted for playing women.  That does resemble the problems we face in real life.  And that is why it needs to be treated carefully, because it ceases to be objective at that point.  When an NPC insults me for my gender, I am no longer an adventurer experiencing a magical foreign culture.  I am pushed back into the real world, thinking about how a coworker said something almost identical to me once. 

[Nefla]

Yes, a large man riding piggyback on a thin woman would be a pretty funny sight. Stop taking everything so seriously

Who said I was thin? Stop assuming things.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

So why isn't there a call for a world where men are oppressed? Where men aren't allowed into high status positions, or allowed to own property? Whenever people talk about "dark fantasy", it's all about how it has to adhere to this historical notion of what sexism was - filtered through our own modern lens of appropriate gender roles - and never about flipping the power dynamic. 

That's pretty much it, it's just a "feel" they're talking about, like how people in period pieces talk in english accents even when the characters didn't or didn't even speak english.

 

*in the voice of Dulce de Launcet* Oh, no! Mockery, however will I cope?  I know I'm supposed to dredge up some sort of indignation or have to apply some salve for that burn, but really I lack the will to do so. Every single time people talk about equality, some genius brings up the term 'pandering' to describe it. Ironic considering the fact that the people who are already benefiting from the situation are the ones who are being pandered to... How else would you describe one group receiving almost all of the consideration, almost all of the marketing, almost all of the focus, and almost all of the entire market as gaming as a whole? The ones who get their male protags designed first and dialogue designed with them in mind first? That's pandering.  Me saying "I'd rather not have semi-lore inconsistent sexism in dialogue I can avoid playing as a dude" is not asking for pandering anymore than asking for better combat tactics or mounts or the return of the arcane warrior is...and I'm sure the Devs would even agree that my request, in and of itself, isn't asking anymore of them than any other request, regardless if they will heed it.

 

edited: I realise you wrote 'pampered' instead of 'pandered' but it amounts to the same thing, in the end, and really doesn't change my reply in anyway.

What. He meant he doesn't expect his character to be pampered. Meaning it's a game and having his character experience hardships is okay, like being stabbed, enslaved or having someone be mean to for having pointy ears. Within certain limits. I certainly don't think what's perceived as mild non malicious sexism crosses a line like rape or something.

 

How is gender specific dialogue pandering to male gamers at all? Whether or not you find it sexist or enjoyable, you should at least appreciate the extra effort it took to do that. "one group receiving almost all of the consideration, almost all of the marketing, almost all of the focus" would be NO gender specific dialogue, no gender option at all, and things like the unfortunate case of female shepard's animations in mass effect 2.

 

I suppose his remark did seem a bit harsh but it does seem like the entire social justice army from tumblr has spilled over into this thread.

[Lady Nuggins]

 

How is gender specific dialogue pandering to male gamers at all? Whether or not you find it sexist or enjoyable, you should at least appreciate the extra effort it took to do that. "one group receiving almost all of the consideration, almost all of the marketing, almost all of the focus" would be NO gender specific dialogue, no gender option at all, and things like the unfortunate case of female shepard's animations in mass effect 2.

 

If the only extra effort that is being made for my gender is negative, then I don't want that extra effort.  I don't want a team of writers and voice actors taking the extra time to insult me.  I'd rather they ignore me than do that.

[slimgrin]

I think you're done here. Sorry. 

 

 

With respect, I 100% disagree with this comment. If we re-created DAO, for instance, and just removed those little touches of sexism, would anyone friggin' notice? Would someone actually sit there and think "Wait a minute, something's not right. This strange man isn't leering inappropriately at my female character. I am suddenly not as immersed in this game as I could be"? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. I mean... do you, really, think it wouldn't work?

 

Here's a thought - why don't we try it, and THEN see. Rather than making women subject to this BS on a continuous basis because reasons, just try creating a game where it doesn't exist at all to see these supposed ramifications of dropped sales or less customer satisfaction. 

 

So now an NPC even recognizing your gender is sexist? You want to pick gender so long as picking that gender has no negative repercussions. Unless of course it's to butter your PC up, in an empowering manner I suppose. Thedas sounds like an increasingly safe and cozy place to go seek out adversity.

 

I hate to break it to you, but not too many writers work this way, and those that do are hamstringing their approach to their craft. If they really do what the OP wants, to the very last line of dialog, nice and objective like, the world will seem painfully contrived. Based on my brief run with DA2, I'd say they're halfway there already. 

[JimboGee]

Women can't be inquisitors! Now get back in the kitchen and make me some pie!

 

Just kidding. Honestly I've never played as a female but I do think women are always going to come under more criticism than men purely based on the statements they make. Such as men mature slower than women, women drive better etc. Theres nothing wrong with those statements and I dare say in some cases they may actually be true. But that also leaves a long way to fall when women mess up. When a man messes up its bad but when a woman gets its wrong.... its always someone elses fault haha

[Nefla]

I will probably get pummeled for this. 
 
Are these negative comments influenced by the NPC design in any way? I mean for an NPC to tell me that "I am good for a elf" and I paraphrase it is part of the character design to be ignorant about elfs. Which is interesting because it shows you that not everything is hunky dory in thedas. Even ignorant people exist there.
 
This could also bring up interesting ways for character development and growth. Look at how Pressly developed to being an undercover racist to someone that appreciates the different alien cultures. What I am trying to say is that in some instances ignorance and opinions of NPCS are made to be that way. Thedas is a vast world and they are people that are going to hate you for what you are. It is one of the aspects of immersion in roleplaying.

Like others have said, elf racism may be relatable but it's not real and it cuts down the character, not the player. Saying "I didn't know women were allowed to join the wardens" would be the same as "I didn't know blacks were allowed to join the wardens." Real sexism and real racism that actually exist in the real world cut down the player.

[Lady Nuggins]

So now an NPC even recognizing your gender is sexist? You want to pick gender so long as picking that gender has no negative repercussions. Unless of course it's to butter your PC up, in an empowering manner I suppose. Thedas sounds like an increasingly safe and cozy place to go seek out adversity.

 

I hate to break it to you, but not too many writers work this way, and those that do are hamstringing their approach to their craft. If they really do what the OP wants, to the very last line of dialog, nice and objective like, the world will seem painfully contrived. Based on my brief run with DA2, I'd say they're halfway there already. 

 

Why would it seem contrived?  We've just gone through an entire thread discussing how un-sexist Thedas is as a setting.  There is plenty of social tension and conflict to satisfy your need for adversity that has nothing to do with gender. 

 

 

I will probably get pummeled for this. 

 

Are these negative comments influenced by the NPC design in any way? I mean for an NPC to tell me that "I am good for a elf" and I paraphrase it is part of the character design to be ignorant about elfs. Which is interesting because it shows you that not everything is hunky dory in thedas. Even ignorant people exist there.

 

This could also bring up interesting ways for character development and growth. Look at how Pressly developed to being an undercover racist to someone that appreciates the different alien cultures. What I am trying to say is that in some instances ignorance and opinions of NPCS are made to be that way. Thedas is a vast world and they are people that are going to hate you for what you are. It is one of the aspects of immersion in roleplaying.

 

If you will refer to my post just above, people hating me for being an elf adds to the immersion, but people questioning my abilities because I am a woman breaks it.  Because the former enriches the setting, while the latter just brings in modern real-world assumptions.

 

And as I've said, moments like Howe using gendered insults don't bother me so much.  It's consistent with what a villain would say.  Sten confronting me about breaking my role as a woman doesn't bother me.  It's consistent with the strict order of the qun.  The Silent Sisters cutting out their tongues to honor the paragon who made it possible for dwarven women to fight doesn't bother me.  It illustrates their history, and shows why dwarfs are particularly egalitarian when it comes to gender. 

 

It's when the comments come from almost everybody you meet as a female in Origins that I take issue with.  Because that does not add anything to the setting or the experience.  It relies on existing tropes and assumptions about women.  It's lazy writing.

[Nefla]

I understand where you are coming from,
 
Look at it this way. For an artist to explore such themes in their artistry it does not mean the artist is in support of that idea. I mean look at films like Killer Of Sheep, the movie itself  explores horrific themes but Charles Burnett was trying to bring to light the various issues that these communities have to deal with. Such an approach by an NPC could mean "hey there is still sexism around. How I'm I going to impact the world around me through my actions?"

Oh I know, and I have no problem with sexism or racism if we can prove the racists or sexist wrong/stupid/rally against it, etc...We can do that with the aggressive, intentionally insulting ones but not the innocent "whaaaat? Women can do things?" ones we can't respond. Even out becoming hero or champion doesn't change hearts and minds which makes no sense in a world where females are found in every profession including knights, Templars, mages, monarchy, and regular soldiers.

[General TSAR]

(Grabbing Popcorn)

[pallascedar]

I'm gonna stop you right there.

Did I not make any valid points or was this assertion so egregious that there wasn't anything worth responding to?

That being said: of course I know that and I totally get the argument of how this is different. I didn't say DA had real world racism, and the fact that it's fantasy racism allows players to connect to it in a way that is different because it lacks the reality that would make us uncomfortable. But I don't want to derail the thread.

I also get how it stinks to be pulled away from a fantasy world into reality because fantasy characters are relating to your gender in a negative way. The reality is that I haven't experienced this and I dont really have a right to discuss it with you less I appear ignorant.

It would be nice if we could have a fantasy equivalent of sexism, but gender doesn't work like that. I'll admit that reversing gender roles completely could work, but I've never seen this done well (though to be fair, I've only seen it done once).

I can only argue my point from a place of my own vulnerability. Arguing about how you should feel would only make me an ass. So here goes.

I like that sexuality isn't a big deal in Thedas, but at the same time I sometimes wish it came up more. I liked Isabela's conversations with Bethany about her sexuality. Bethany wad cool with it, bit it still illustrated that Isabela's bisexuality wasnt actually the cultural norm. As I said before I liked Gamlen touch of homophones because even though it's reprehensible, it comes a reprehensible character. Add long as ignorance is presented as ignorance and hatefullness is presented as hatefullness I feel like it adds to the game. It actually feels a bit weird to me that this issue that is so important in my world is brushed aside in DA.

Because ultimately, even if my character comes accross prejudices, they're still the hero. Man or woman, gay or straight, elf or human, our hero is still a hero. The minor prejudices of a few NPCs are stupid and our heroes succeed despite them.

A world where gender is completely irrelevant would be interesting, but Thedas isn't that world.

Sorry if this is disjointed. I wrote this between tasks over 2 hours, so I may ramble a bit.

[pallascedar]

It's when the comments come from almost everybody you meet as a female in Origins that I take issue with. Because that does not add anything to the setting or the experience. It relies on existing tropes and assumptions about women. It's lazy writing.

Editing posts is hard. If this is really the basis of what you're talking about: I agree those random NPC comments are stupid and unnecessary. Reading comprehension can be hard.