424 réponses à ce sujet

[Ispan]

The most offensive to me was "I'm the bravest one here and I'm a woman."  That's not using the idea of physical strength of men vs. women.  That's insulting the character of females.  Again, replace the word woman with something else.

 

"I'm the bravest one here and I'm black."

"I'm the bravest one here and I'm gay."

 

"I'm naturally pathetic, and you're even worse than me.  That's how much you suck."

 

Racism and classism are subjects the story and quests deal with.  We have the choice to stop or allow elves being sold into slavery.  We can ask for a boon to free the mages of Ferelden.  These are story elements, so it makes sense that they would come up in conversation.  If you choose a casteless dwarf origin you face discrimination.  If you choose an elf you do.  But if you choose a female of any race because you're female IRL and want to connect with your PC, you're going to receive pointless critiques that are unrelated to anything presented in the story.

 

I like when my character is insulted for something that relates to the overarching themes within the game.  Those have impact and augment immersion.  Add more of those and leave out the pointless ones about the "weakness" of my gender.  Bam!  Better for everyone.

 

This thread is in feedback and suggestions, it doesn't feel like crusading to me.  We're offering feedback and suggesting a minor change that would improve the game.

[Darth Krytie]

Oh I know, and I have no problem with sexism or racism if we can prove the racists or sexist wrong/stupid/rally against it, etc...We can do that with the aggressive, intentionally insulting ones but not the innocent "whaaaat? Women can do things?" ones we can't respond. Even out becoming hero or champion doesn't change hearts and minds which makes no sense in a world where females are found in every profession including knights, Templars, mages, monarchy, and regular soldiers.

Perfection.

 

This is what I mean by my request precisely.

[Atecia]

To start off I’m a male and have not been on the receiving end of issues such as sexism which means I’m looking at this from a different perspective.

 

I think Mes made a good point in that if DA:O was rewritten and all the sexist lines were taken out we would not miss them. With the possible exception of the Howe lines for the human female noble.

 

To me I think it is an issue of what is the point. What is the writer trying to convey by having the NPC say what they say or do what they do. To make a blanket statement that all sexism should be removed is not necessarily correct as that removes a tool that can used to convey a social message or commentate upon societal circumstances. This does not apply to just sexism, you could substitute racism, gratuitous violence, sex, nudity, etc.  and the issue still stands. All of these things I’ve mentioned if they appear in a game, movie, or book, for no reason other than to be there is offensive and pointless. If used correctly they can add to the world and maybe teach people as well.

 

To reiterate my point; I think that sexism for the sake of sexism is wrong, pointless, and offensive. Sexism used to underscore or comment upon how ridiculous or wrong sexism is can be useful and maybe even beneficial. 

[Wulfram]

DA:O I got the impression that the idea of how sexist the world was changed as the game was written -an interesting hint of this is that the VO notes for Ostagar in the toolset have the priests as male- and this resulted in some very grating inconsistencies.  But DA2 seemed to be settled on having society be basically not sexist, aside from a couple of creeps leering at Fem!Hawke, and was generally more satisfactory.

 

I do wonder what would actually be good gender specific dialogue, though.  Beyond your obvious basic pronouns

[KaiserShep]

You've taken the social crusading bit to a new level. Congrats. I didn't think it could be done. All I know is when I play an RPG, I don't expect or even want to be pampered the whole time.

 

Think of it this way: If you watch a movie that includes racism from many fronts, the story must also explore the character's struggle with prejudice. If the protagonist is a black man, and side characters are using epithets or trying to weigh their privilege above his, and the story does not deal with this to a meaningful degree, it will only serve to annoy the audience, or at least those with which it may hit a bit closer to home. It becomes an inescapable part of that character. If people give the Warden a hard time because of being a woman all over the place, it too must be able to be explored by the player. The goal then wouldn't just be to defeat darkspawn, but now to prove all of these suckers wrong, shove it in their faces, and dispose of the ones that refuse to learn.

[mars_central]

Ultimately, when a character calls your elf character "knife ears", he's insulting your character. When he insults your character's gender then (assuming you're the same gender) he is also insulting you.

 

As for the "it's art" argument, let me call BS on that. While I do believe video games are an art form, they are also a commercial product and part of that is keeping your audience in mind. EA aren't funding an auteur game project exploring sexism in medieval fantasy settings for a limited audience interested in exploring the theme. It's supposed to be entertaining. That doesn't mean it lacks artistry, but that it should be keeping it's audience in mind as they create that art. Thankfully, I think they are or there wouldn't be these forums for feedback and they wouldn't care what we thought of the franchise's earlier instalments.

[Bugsie]

So now an NPC even recognizing your gender is sexist? You want to pick gender so long as picking that gender has no negative repercussions. Unless of course it's to butter your PC up, in an empowering manner I suppose. Thedas sounds like an increasingly safe and cozy place to go seek out adversity.
 
I hate to break it to you, but not too many writers work this way, and those that do are hamstringing their approach to their craft. If they really do what the OP wants, to the very last line of dialog, nice and objective like, the world will seem painfully contrived. Based on my brief run with DA2, I'd say they're halfway there already.

No, that is not the implication, the implication is that when gender is recognised it's more often than not in a negative light. Adversity comes in the game in a different means, your class, your race, not real world problems, as many others have already said. If that doesn't break your 'immersion' but asking for real world sexism to be removed is somehow contrived, then perhaps DA isn't the game for you? The writers of DA seem a pretty sensitive bunch, they've been fairly forthcoming on their attempts at this, so I doubt a small ask like this, and it is small because I can't list too many instances of sexism in the game that would ****** me off personally, is somehow going to affect their 'craft' or limit their freedom to write interesting and involved characters or dialogue.

I hate to break it to you, but most writers are especially sensitive about their portrayals of people, they think clearly about their character development and don't like putting in tired old tropes. The DA franchise has been pretty good, one step further is not going to damage the DA brand or ruin the game for everyone. If having your character (female PC in this instance) come through the adversity of say, being an elf, or a Mage isn't enough adversity for you, then again, perhaps DA isn't the game for you.

Perhaps you'd like to list the sexism leveled at male PC's to get your point across? But somehow, I doubt that is your aim here.

[JimboGee]

It clearly fits within the time of the game that women are considered somewhat inferior to men. Women in some form or other will ALWAYS be considered inferior to men. Thats just the way things are. It's not right but there you have it.

 

What astounds me is the fact that Lady Nuggins can hold her immersion when the Qun do it or insult her race (elf) but not when anyone else does it even though it is clearly part of the lore. Just like in the 1950's blacks were considered inferior to whites. I cant imagine him saying " I dont mind the postman hurling abuse at me or the local butcher but I damn well draw the line at the bus driver". He would have to learn to accept what was and hope for change.

[Bugsie]

Sexism is lore in DA?

News to me.

[slimgrin]

Sexism is lore in DA?

News to me.

 

More like gender differences are a reality in the game, at least from what I played. Thedas wasn't so far divorced from real history as to not be inflicted with the same social problems we have. You're ok with racism and genocide, but depictions of perceived sexism are fought tooth and nail. Seems cherry picking to me. 

[Eveangaline]

More like gender differences are a reality in the game, at least from what I played. Thedas wasn't so far divorced from real history as to not be inflicted with the same social problems we have. You're ok with racism and genocide, but depictions of perceived sexism are fought tooth and nail. Seems cherry picking to me. 

 

As people pointed out, the lore disagrees with you.

 

 

[JimboGee]

As people pointed out, the lore disagrees with you.

I think someone needs to look up the word general.

[Mes]

Women in some form or other will ALWAYS be considered inferior to men. 

 

... Come... again....??

 

Honestly this is interesting. Please elaborate.

[KaiserShep]

It clearly fits within the time of the game that women are considered somewhat inferior to men. Women in some form or other will ALWAYS be considered inferior to men. Thats just the way things are. It's not right but there you have it.

 

What astounds me is the fact that Lady Nuggins can hold her immersion when the Qun do it or insult her race (elf) but not when anyone else does it even though it is clearly part of the lore. Just like in the 1950's blacks were considered inferior to whites. I cant imagine him saying " I dont mind the postman hurling abuse at me or the local butcher but I damn well draw the line at the bus driver". He would have to learn to accept what was and hope for change.

 

The "time" of the game is irrelevant, since Dragon Age does not mirror all aspects of actual medieval history. It's also irrelevant to insist that women will always be considered inferior to men, because however women are considered in a fictional universe is entirely up to the writers. If they establish that women largely fulfill similar roles of their male counterparts without much fuss, then that issue dies right then and there. The fact that throughout Thedas, we see scores of female soldiers, guards and Templars of varying rank means that no one of import seems to care. Ser Cauthrien's being a female did not seem to matter to Loghain, the Templars only cared about Meredith going insane, but never held this on account of her being a woman.

 

As for the Qun, they are a special case. They hold plenty of extreme values. They kill soldiers who return to their homeland without their weapon. They kill people who rebel against the Qun. That they have strict boundaries on the roles of women in their society only stacks up on top of many other things that people who abhor its belief system would have a beef with.

 

But more to the point, it's also a matter of whether or not it's a meaningful part of the story. Being a casteless dwarf means having to deal with the oppressive caste system of Orzammar. Being an elf, Dalish or city, means that you have to deal with the bad blood between their kind and the humans, which has a long history in Thedas. Being a mage obviously puts you at odds with the Templars and regular people who fear them, etc.. These are things the writers want to emphasize on. Sexism is irrelevant. It serves best to frame a single character of ill repute, but does not serve for the greater scope of the fictional world.

 

In your example of racism of the 1950's, likely such an issue would actually be a meaningful part of the story, but above that, we're not talking about a fictional world anymore. If I made a period piece of the 50's and totally ignored racism, I would not be true to the state of the world as it actually was. Dragon Age's similarities to the medieval era is largely superficial. The writers are not bound to honor how the world actually was at that time.

[Mes]

Why is it perfectly acceptable for people in Thedas to not comment on a human's skin color in a derogatory way (like Isabella's), but it's so inconceivable for us to ask for less sexism towards women?

 

If you want the world to be properly medieval, bring back true, cold-blooded racism then. Not towards dwarves and elves... but towards humans. Because of their skin color. Bring back slavery - not of "city elves" but of black people. So that black people playing this game can be nice and uncomfortable, like how some women are currently feeling.

[KaiserShep]

And that's really what it comes down to. Dragon Age is about fantasy bigotry.

[GhostNappa]

[Mes]

 

When I read a thread and decide I have nothing to say, I don't usually post. 

[GhostNappa]

When I read a thread and decide I have nothing to say, I don't usually post. 

I was going to say something originally, but decided not to. Wasn't sure if you were serious with that post or not.

[Mes]

I was going to say something originally, but decided not to. Wasn't sure if you were serious with that post or not.

 

I was serious. This thread is tension-ridden as it is, I feel like it's best to either contribute or not post at all - to delay it getting locked as long as possible!

[KaiserShep]

More like gender differences are a reality in the game, at least from what I played. Thedas wasn't so far divorced from real history as to not be inflicted with the same social problems we have. You're ok with racism and genocide, but depictions of perceived sexism are fought tooth and nail. Seems cherry picking to me. 

But depictions of racism and genocide are dealt with head on in the story. The entire history between elves and humans, how elves are treated in the alienage, the rebellion, and how the Dalish treat human passersby frame the setting. We have whole quests that deal with this. In DA2, we discover that the Magistrate is protecting his serial killer of a son, and it would seem that it's largely overlooked specifically because he targets only elven children. In Orzammar, the caste system is a major issue among plenty of dwarves, and choosing the next king directly affects this. If sexism is to be part of the story, then it can't be half-assed. It must either be treated the same way, in that the player can choose to fight against it or go with the flow, or simply be little more than a way to establish that a certain character is a scuzzball.

[naddaya]

The most offensive to me was "I'm the bravest one here and I'm a woman."  That's not using the idea of physical strength of men vs. women.  That's insulting the character of females.  Again, replace the word woman with something else.

 

"I'm the bravest one here and I'm black."

"I'm the bravest one here and I'm gay."

 

"I'm naturally pathetic, and you're even worse than me.  That's how much you suck."

 

That could also work as a sarcastic response to Jory and Daveth's surprised comments about Duncan recruiting a woman. It probably wasn't intended this way though.

[GhostNappa]

I was serious. This thread is tension-ridden as it is, I feel like it's best to either contribute or not post at all - to delay it getting locked as long as possible!

So you were serious about that slavery thing as well?

[Mes]

So you were serious about that slavery thing as well?

 

I brought that up as a way to point out that it doesn't make any sense to continue this random sexism toward female humans in DA, especially when people bring up the whole "but it's supposed to be a medieval universe". If you want to make a game more "realistic" by bringing these social issues into it, why restrict it to sexism. Why not bring in racism? Or is that "too much"? Is it not too much to mistreat women, but suddenly it's too much to mistreat non-whites?

 

I am not serious, no. I would not want that brought into a game, especially half-arsed like this sexism thing is. I am trying to make a point.

 

Thoughts?

[KaiserShep]

I'd be pretty annoying to have random NPC's make derisive comments at my dark-skinned Warden or Hawke or Inquisitor, and not be able to give them a taste of my blade. This IS a medieval setting, amirite? I reserve the right to chop off the head of anyone that so much as looks at me cockeyed.