424 réponses à ce sujet

[GhostNappa]

I brought that up as a way to point out that it doesn't make any sense to continue this random sexism toward female humans in DA, especially when people bring up the whole "but it's supposed to be a medieval universe". If you want to make a game more "realistic" by bringing these social issues into it, why restrict it to sexism. Why not bring in racism? Or is that "too much"? Is it not too much to mistreat women, but suddenly it's too much to mistreat non-whites?

 

I am not serious, no. I would not want that brought into a game, especially half-arsed like this sexism thing is. I am trying to make a point.

 

Thoughts?

My apologies. I just misunderstood your point.

[Stelae]

It clearly fits within the time of the game that women are considered somewhat inferior to men. Women in some form or other will ALWAYS be considered inferior to men. Thats just the way things are. It's not right but there you have it.

 

What astounds me is the fact that Lady Nuggins can hold her immersion when the Qun do it or insult her race (elf) but not when anyone else does it even though it is clearly part of the lore. Just like in the 1950's blacks were considered inferior to whites. I cant imagine him saying " I dont mind the postman hurling abuse at me or the local butcher but I damn well draw the line at the bus driver". He would have to learn to accept what was and hope for change.

 

What the actual frak?  No, actually, a lot of people consider women are not inferior to men.  They are not the same as men, their strengths and weaknesses are different, but they are not seen as inferior.  Just as an English person no longer feels they are naturally superior to, say, a German or an Indian.  Unless they are a racist.  Feel free to join us in the 21st century.

 

First of all, it clearly fits within the time of the game that we're all mud-grubbing, illiterate peasants who would be run through if we so much as looked at a noble the wrong way and who would be dead by 40 at any rate.  But we don't transport those social realities to Thedas.  Why should we put up with transporting casual sexism?

 

Yes, some individual characters think women are inferior to men, and that's a character flaw in them.  The Qunari are an interesting case, because they don't think women are inferior; they think women and men have particular roles, and they think those not of the Qun are inferior.  We don't see any Kossith women, and Sten experiences culture shock when he encounters women in a role he doesn't know they can fill, but I think that ismore cultural naivete than sexism.  

 

What's different about the dialogue we are discussing is that despite the clear and normal appearance of women fighters, rulers, priests and what have you all over thedas, people casually express astonishment that a woman is competent. 

[foolishquinn]

Like renegade shep then let us girlies and elfves put the impolite peoples in their place to a degree.

Never insult a person who stands between your life and death
an inquisitor should judged by her/his merrits never their race, ideally

[foolishquinn]

Don't mind that people am on a mobile and its late here

Btw how do u remove comments 1sr post.
Noob O:-)

[Mes]

Don't mind that people am on a mobile and its late here

Btw how do u remove comments 1sr post.
Noob O:-)

 

Hehe welcome! Not sure if you can delete posts actually, but you can edit - just hit the edit button at the bottom of the post. 

[foolishquinn]

Thank you very much

[Cecilia L]

I would be absolutely fine with sexist and racist remarks directed towards my Inquisitor as long as I get the option of killing them or at least headbutting them

[JimboGee]

The "time" of the game is irrelevant, since Dragon Age does not mirror all aspects of actual medieval history. It's also irrelevant to insist that women will always be considered inferior to men, because however women are considered in a fictional universe is entirely up to the writers. If they establish that women largely fulfill similar roles of their male counterparts without much fuss, then that issue dies right then and there. The fact that throughout Thedas, we see scores of female soldiers, guards and Templars of varying rank means that no one of import seems to care. Ser Cauthrien's being a female did not seem to matter to Loghain, the Templars only cared about Meredith going insane, but never held this on account of her being a woman.

 

As for the Qun, they are a special case. They hold plenty of extreme values. They kill soldiers who return to their homeland without their weapon. They kill people who rebel against the Qun. That they have strict boundaries on the roles of women in their society only stacks up on top of many other things that people who abhor its belief system would have a beef with.

 

But more to the point, it's also a matter of whether or not it's a meaningful part of the story. Being a casteless dwarf means having to deal with the oppressive caste system of Orzammar. Being an elf, Dalish or city, means that you have to deal with the bad blood between their kind and the humans, which has a long history in Thedas. Being a mage obviously puts you at odds with the Templars and regular people who fear them, etc.. These are things the writers want to emphasize on. Sexism is irrelevant. It serves best to frame a single character of ill repute, but does not serve for the greater scope of the fictional world.

 

In your example of racism of the 1950's, likely such an issue would actually be a meaningful part of the story, but above that, we're not talking about a fictional world anymore. If I made a period piece of the 50's and totally ignored racism, I would not be true to the state of the world as it actually was. Dragon Age's similarities to the medieval era is largely superficial. The writers are not bound to honor how the world actually was at that time.

My point was that there is always going to be racism, sexism, homophobia etc. It's part of life. The game reflects that. it's what gives characters flavour even though you might not like it. Asking for less sexism is like asking for less crime. A nice idea but one that wont happen.

 

You keep using the word irrelevant and yet in almost every fantasy based (and even some that are not)RPG's, some form of sexism or racism occurs. That doesn't strike me as irrelevant.  It's not about honouring the past because these are still very much relevant issues within the human existence. My point about the 1950's was to show how silly the post I was reffering to was that somehow racism or sexism from one party is acceptable but not from another.

 

There needs to be some sort of conflict within games it helps to create a story. If nobody was racist or sexist the characters in the game would be very boring. I'm not saying it's blanket sexism but there are going to be some groups of people who think one type of person is inferior to another type. This is and should be reflected in video games. When you play as a Dwarf/Elf/Human you have to accept that not everyone is going to greet you with open arms.

[Mes]

 or at least headbutting them

 

Oooh as a pointy sharp-horned Qunari, too... Yes, yes I approve. 

[Mes]

There needs to be some sort of conflict within games it helps to create a story. If nobody was racist or sexist the characters in the game would be very boring. I'm not saying it's blanket sexism but there are going to be some groups of people who think one type of person is inferior to another type. This is and should be reflected in video games. When you play as a Dwarf/Elf/Human you have to accept that not everyone is going to greet you with open arms.

 

Yeah, conflict that serves the story such as (fantasy) racism towards dwarves and elves. What sort of purpose did the dialogue option "I'm braver that both of you, and I'm a woman!" serve? If this was removed, would the entire game suddenly feel boring?

[foolishquinn]

Or the elfy arrow to the knee
Totally over used i knw :-\

[KaiserShep]

Oooh as a pointy sharp-horned Qunari, too... Yes, yes I approve. 

 

Be sure to bring the head low, then up. Maximum goring.

[Bugsie]

Depictions of racism and genocide exist in fantasy form in DA and it's easy to discern the difference between racism and genocide as depicted as an integrated part of that world and the stories that it tells, and the real thing. It's a false equivalency to say that because you aren't railing against racism and genocide as depicted in DA your railing against real world sexism is petty or cherry picking.

There is no need for sexism against only female PC to exist in the DA universe, it's irrelevant to the main story and as a lot of people here have mentioned, it's annoying. There are enough differences in playing elf, human, dwarf, mage, rogue, warrior, and all the other different background to create a detailed world full of adversity for the player to rally against.

[JimboGee]

Depictions of racism and genocide exist in fantasy form in DA and it's easy to discern the difference between racism and genocide as depicted as an integrated part of that world and the stories that it tells, and the real thing. It's a false equivalency to say that because you aren't railing against racism and genocide as depicted in DA your railing against real world sexism is petty or cherry picking.

There is no need for sexism against only female PC to exist in the DA universe, it's irrelevant to the main story and as a lot of people here have mentioned, it's annoying. There are enough differences in playing elf, human, dwarf, mage, rogue, warrior, and all the other different background to create a detailed world full of adversity for the player to rally against.

If I wrote a history book about the British Empire for example, but I removed the parts about Britain being involved in the slave trade and the crusades and invading India and all the other things i didn't like, could it still be considered a true and accurate representation of what happened?

 

In my view the writers are trying to simulate a world where there are some bad people in it who do things that people like, dislike or are indifferent to. I know for a fact when I play the next dragon age game there is going to be material in there I dont like but I accept that it's there and I move on. Not liking something and it not being relevant are two different things.

[Stelae]

If I wrote a history book about the British Empire for example, but I removed the parts about Britain being involved in the slave trade and the crusades and invading India and all the other things i didn't like, could it still be considered a true and accurate representation of what happened?

 

In my view the writers are trying to simulate a world where there are some bad people in it who do things that people like, dislike or are indifferent to. I know for a fact when I play the next dragon age game there is going to be material in there I dont like but I accept that it's there and I move on. Not liking something and it not being relevant are two different things.

If you were writing a history book (and let's be generous and assume you were writing social history rather than, say, an economic analysis of the East India company) you'd be writing a work of non-fiction based on records and evidence depicting real events, and tied to present-day society and economic development, and so on.  If it were relevant to your subject, of course you'd talk about the slave trade, or the economic disenfranchisement of women, or whatever.  But you'd be doing it not to entertain or create a believable world out of whole cloth, but to educate and explore past events. 

 

The idea that a work of fiction - a world where you set the base conditions -  is somehow lacking if it doesn't have what you have decided was present in, 13th century England or 9th century Jutland, or wherever, is not equivalent. Or even sensible.  Nicking the good bits of the past, and creating conflict between people in a make-believe world, does not require you to use institutionalised sexism (or racism, or any --ism) like they are in the real world, or like you imagine they were in the past. 

[KaiserShep]

My point was that there is always going to be racism, sexism, homophobia etc. It's part of life. The game reflects that. it's what gives characters flavour even though you might not like it. Asking for less sexism is like asking for less crime. A nice idea but one that wont happen.

 

It's not a matter of whether or not I feel it should exist at all, but rather the scale to which the writers should apply it. Sexism, on a broader scale, has no real place in the Dragon Age universe. The only groups that have such strict divisions between the roles of men and women are the Chantry and the Qunari, and neither represent society, or at least society in Ferelden as a whole. But as you say, it is what gives characters flavor, and that's the point. We see it among characters who have some serious flaws in their respective personalities, some of which we may have to give greater effort to understand, simply dismiss, put in their place or kill outright. I don't think that everyone everywhere should be totally devoid of some rather unsavory opinions a woman's place in society, but I don't think it should be a more prevalent theme in Dragon Age either. Being a part of life does not necessarily mean that it's something that should be given greater emphasis in a story. It doesn't necessarily make it more interesting, and very likely, it can only serve to be an annoyance. The same goes for things like homophobia. Imagine if in DA2, Hawke's mother criticizes him or her because their partner is of the same sex? Where do the writers go from there? How would this little piece of drama be resolved? Realistic or not, it would be doomed to be considered a failing point among fans who would take this issue very personally and would probably be seen as a major misstep to never be repeated. Moreover, how is this addressed without creating a very unwanted diversion from the themes of the main story?

 

To say that to ask for less sexism is the same as asking for less crime is inaccurate. For one, crime, in and of itself, is indiscriminate. People rob other people for any number of reasons. Things like revenge or greed affect everyone. There's no sensitive issues on crime in the general sense, and being a game that involves combat, crime is kind of something we'd have to encounter if we're going to save people from bandits or evil lords anyway.

 

 

You keep using the word irrelevant and yet in almost every fantasy based (and even some that are not)RPG's, some form of sexism or racism occurs. That doesn't strike me as irrelevant.  It's not about honouring the past because these are still very much relevant issues within the human existence. My point about the 1950's was to show how silly the post I was reffering to was that somehow racism or sexism from one party is acceptable but not from another.

 

What other fantasy games do doesn't really concern me. I say that it's irrelevant, because the writers largely make it so. If they feel that Dragon Age doesn't need a plethora of sexist people for us to encounter, then that's that. Since the story they create doesn't really necessitate their existence in a way that really contributes to it, then I'm inclined to agree. Frankly, I simply do not see its importance in relation to the major themes of Dragon Age.

 

 

There needs to be some sort of conflict within games it helps to create a story. If nobody was racist or sexist the characters in the game would be very boring. I'm not saying it's blanket sexism but there are going to be some groups of people who think one type of person is inferior to another type. This is and should be reflected in video games. When you play as a Dwarf/Elf/Human you have to accept that not everyone is going to greet you with open arms.

 

Conflict is obviously something Dragon Age has no shortage of, but there certainly are plenty of racist people in Thedas. Again, I don't expect every single character we encounter in Dragon Age to be a bastion of open-mindedness, but if more and more characters of varying import start to crop up having a negative view of a certain sex, class or race, it only serves well for the story if it's something we as the player can fight against. Your last line is precisely the type of thing that Dragon Age does allow us to attack. If you're a dwarf commoner, you get to show everyone up by being the big damn hero that saves the day.

[General TSAR]

You got an extra bowl of popcorn? I ran out. 

[JimboGee]

If you were writing a history book (and let's be generous and assume you were writing social history rather than, say, an economic analysis of the East India company) you'd be writing a work of non-fiction based on records and evidence depicting real events, and tied to present-day society and economic development, and so on.  If it were relevant to your subject, of course you'd talk about the slave trade, or the economic disenfranchisement of women, or whatever.  But you'd be doing it not to entertain or create a believable world out of whole cloth, but to educate and explore past events. 

 

The idea that a work of fiction - a world where you set the base conditions -  is somehow lacking if it doesn't have what you have decided was present in, 13th century England or 9th century Jutland, or wherever, is not equivalent. Or even sensible.  Nicking the good bits of the past, and creating conflict between people in a make-believe world, does not require you to use institutionalised sexism (or racism, or any --ism) like they are in the real world, or like you imagine they were in the past. 

Good writers are told to write what they know. The world and lore of Thedas is made up of real world events and fiction. For example the bit about the mages trying to usurp heaven is ripped straight from the bible with a twist. Any person with a basic knowledge in the bible could tell you this. The writers for this game have decided that racism and sexism are part of this world. just as they are part of our world. They are taking real world events and applying them to a video game. There is nothing wrong with this.  I once read a book by Terry Goodkind in which he made a veiled reference to child abuse. I was appauled. I refused from that point on to read anymore of his books.

 

This does not make him a bad person nor a bad writer, he took a real world issue and applied it to his books. They are not for everyone and certain people will take offence to such things even in a fantasy setting. He didn't have to put it in there and could have left it out for fear of alienating a large portion of his fan base. But he didn't. It was part of his world. Now, I made the choice not to read anymore of his books because I personally beleive that such things do not have a place even in a fantasy setting. Thats my own personal view not his. I would not however, ask him to remove those parts simply because I do not wish to see them.

 

It's the same with video games. If there is something that affects you that strongly then you should not be playing the game if you cannot move past it or at least ignore it to the degree which allows you to play the game. Again as I have stated there are much bigger fish in this sea other than sexism that I feel are irrelevant. But that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't feel they have a purpose.

[Stelae]

Good writers are told to write what they know. The world and lore of Thedas is made up of real world events and fiction. For example the bit about the mages trying to usurp heaven is ripped straight from the bible with a twist. Any person with a basic knowledge in the bible could tell you this. The writers for this game have decided that racism and sexism are part of this world. just as they are part of our world.

Right.  Obviously Tolkein's years of studying Elves and Rings of power served him as well as his knowledge of Anglo-Saxon culture.  You can tell, by the way the riders of Rohan speak perfect 8th century West Saxon.  No, wait ... he adapted what he knew, and used the bits which helped him tell the story, and ditched the bits which didn't.  That's what writers do.  They don't slavishly recreate the past.  They create worlds which might have all sortsof elements and adaptions in them.

 

Actually, the mages trying to usurp heaven sounded more like Paradise Lost with the serial numbers rubbed off to me, but de gustibus. 

 

And, as seen above in the character creation screen from DAO, the people responsible for Thedas have explicitly stated that men and women are considered equal.  That's the opposite of saying they have decided sexism is part of the world.  They've decided that no, opportunities are equal for men and women.  Then they created characters like Anora, Ser Cauthrien, Aveline and the many female warriors, scholars, mages and leaders we see.  Not only did they decide the world wasn't sexist, they built a world where you could see women had the same range of opportunities as men. 

 

Can you really not see that in that context, someone expressing surprise at a competent woman (whatever she happens to be doing) is jarring? 

[Nefla]

-Dragon Age is not history, the human culture is not even portrayed like medieval Europe, it's portrayed more like modern day North America culturally.

 

-If women were going to be second class citizens in the world, why does the lore contradict this at every turn? We have females in high ranking military, religions and government positions, queens and empresses ruling alone with no husband, a huge percentage of female mercenaries, guards, soldiers, Templars, bandits, etc...we have not been shown any women as housewives or similar...The surprised comments about you being a woman make NO sense in this context, in this established world. It's like it was thrown in there without thinking just to be "medieval-y."

 

-Just because something happened in history doesn't mean it should be "honored" or replicated.

 

-I'm sure when real elves get wind of this thread, they'll come out and complain about all the "knife ear" comments...until then, women (who *gasp!* actually exist and have to face this crap in real life) will be the only ones bringing up concerns because they are the only real people being put down.

 

-Society and its' ideals can change, HAS changed. The fact that we look at the 1950s with distain based on how they treated non-whites, women, and homosexuals should highlight how far we've come and we're still moving along. I believe one day racism and sexism will be a thing of the past. We may have other forms of discrimination (like Deus Ex: Human Revolution maybe) but I think we'll look back and say: "We used to put others down based on the tint of their skin and hair? Based on which set of reproductive organs they have? Based on they gender they like? Barbaric and strange!"

 

-A story needs sexism to be interesting? Man. All this time I thought sci-fi stories like Firefly, Star Wars, Star Trek, Mass Effect, etc...were pretty interesting but I guess without rampant blatant sexism you might as well be watching paint dry.

[JimboGee]

Right.  Obviously Tolkein's years of studying Elves and Rings of power served him as well as his knowledge of Anglo-Saxon culture.  You can tell, by the way the riders of Rohan speak perfect 8th century West Saxon.  No, wait ... he adapted what he knew, and used the bits which helped him tell the story, and ditched the bits which didn't.  That's what writers do.  They don't slavishly recreate the past.  They create worlds which might have all sortsof elements and adaptions in them.

 

Actually, the mages trying to usurp heaven sounded more like Paradise Lost with the serial numbers rubbed off to me, but de gustibus. 

 

And, as seen above in the character creation screen from DAO, the people responsible for Thedas have explicitly stated that men and women are considered equal.  That's the opposite of saying they have decided sexism is part of the world.  They've decided that no, opportunities are equal for men and women.  Then they created characters like Anora, Ser Cauthrien, Aveline and the many female warriors, scholars, mages and leaders we see.  Not only did they decide the world wasn't sexist, they built a world where you could see women had the same range of opportunities as men. 

 

Can you really not see that in that context, someone expressing surprise at a competent woman (whatever she happens to be doing) is jarring? 

Again I am not saying this is a recreation of the real world I am saying there is nothing wrong with using real world issues and putting a twist on them.They just happen to be ones you don't like.

 

To the bit about character creation. You left out a key word. Generally. Generally isn't definitive. If I generally take my shoes off before entering a room there is a decent chance that sometimes I do not. In general, the majority of people in thedas view men and women as equal but there are those who do not.

 

To answer your last question it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I dont play as a female in Dragon Age. it wouldnt even bother me if the entire game was full of women who thought men were idiots. I just ignore it and move on.

[Steelcan]

Did someone say..... Firefly?

 

 

[JimboGee]

-Dragon Age is not history, the human culture is not even portrayed like medieval Europe, it's portrayed more like modern day North America culturally.

 

-If women were going to be second class citizens in the world, why does the lore contradict this at every turn? We have females in high ranking military, religions and government positions, queens and empresses ruling alone with no husband, a huge percentage of female mercenaries, guards, soldiers, Templars, bandits, etc...we have not been shown any women as housewives or similar...The surprised comments about you being a woman make NO sense in this context, in this established world. It's like it was thrown in there without thinking just to be "medieval-y."

 

-Just because something happened in history doesn't mean it should be "honored" or replicated.

 

-I'm sure when real elves get wind of this thread, they'll come out and complain about all the "knife ear" comments...until then, women (who *gasp!* actually exist and have to face this crap in real life) will be the only ones bringing up concerns because they are the only real people being put down.

 

-Society and its' ideals can change, HAS changed. The fact that we look at the 1950s with distain based on how they treated non-whites, women, and homosexuals should highlight how far we've come and we're still moving along. I believe one day racism and sexism will be a thing of the past. We may have other forms of discrimination (like Deus Ex: Human Revolution maybe) but I think we'll look back and say: "We used to put others down based on the tint of their skin and hair? Based on which set of reproductive organs they have? Based on they gender they like? Barbaric and strange!"

 

-A story needs sexism to be interesting? Man. All this time I thought sci-fi stories like Firefly, Star Wars, Star Trek, Mass Effect, etc...were pretty interesting but I guess without rampant blatant sexism you might as well be watching paint dry.

 

1) Well funny you should mention this. Lets take a look at the real world as an example. We have women in the military, we have gay people in the miltary we have black people in the military. Are you honestly telling me that nobody in the world at this moment in time thinks that because you are black, gay or a woman that you should not be in the military?  Think hard before you answer that question.

 

2) In that case lets get rid of homosexuality/transgenderism in video games then. No? Didn't think so.

 

3) I'm not saying society cannot change. Maybe one day the writers will decide that this is no longer an issue but I'm guessing for now the time has not arrived. If it has hoorah! we can all get back to killing darkspawn or whatever. Some would indeed argue that our progression is not actually a progression but a loss of a moral compass. That is another discussion entirely though.

 

4) (For about the 50th time) I am not saying the game is uninteresting without sexism. I am saying getting rid of it just because it upsets a few people is a bad idea rather than having it make sense lore wise.

[CybAnt1]

OK, so let's be clear. What drives much of the conflict in Thedas?

 

1) racism. Not "human skin color racism" but "humans don't like elves, and they kinda don't like them back" racism. Human attitudes toward dwarves are ... more or less tolerant, and as for the qunari, well the problem there is they are, as we've discussed many times, both weird looking and have an alien ethos (if they're Capital Q). 

2) classism. The game is rather more blunt than most others I know in showing that the dwarven casteless, city elves, and human non-nobility are often getting a raw deal. (Now that's historical honesty to the medieval world: it really did suck being a serf.) 

3) religious warfare. We've got two expansionist religions (even if one is more of an 'ethos'): Qunarism, and the Chantry/Andrastianism. They both are trying to convert others, even among all the races. And not always being totally nice about it.

4) national conflict. The human nations are warring with each other. Ferelden vs. Orlais, etc. 

5) and the other two huuuuuge plot drivers: everything vs. the darkspawn, and mage vs. templar. 

 

Isn't that a full enough plate? The creators of this imaginary world have decided the battle of the sexes will take a back seat to these other major world plot-conflict-drivers/elements. 

 

Works for me. 

[Bugsie]

If I wrote a history book about the British Empire for example, but I removed the parts about Britain being involved in the slave trade and the crusades and invading India and all the other things i didn't like, could it still be considered a true and accurate representation of what happened?

In my view the writers are trying to simulate a world where there are some bad people in it who do things that people like, dislike or are indifferent to. I know for a fact when I play the next dragon age game there is going to be material in there I dont like but I accept that it's there and I move on. Not liking something and it not being relevant are two different things.

I thought an appeal to Realism!™ would come up at some time. Of course it wouldn't. It's history, it happened (for real). Tell me, how is leaving out the real world sexism going to ruin the true and accurate depiction of the imaginary world of Thedas? Reminding you of course that the real world sexism you seem to think is sacrosanct, because Realism!™ actually only exists if you're playing a female PC. It's not even present if you play as a male PC.

Yes the writers are depicting a world where there are bad things happening, and yes, there will be some things I don't like, I too can accept it and move on. I can accept that being an elf might put me in a situation where I experience racism, because it will occur whether I play as a male or female elf. I can accept that if I play a mage, pro Templar NPC's will want to imprison me, because that will occur whether I play as a male or female mage. Gender is irrelevant to how those arcs play out. Telling people to 'move on' or 'get over it, because Realism!™' is not an argument, especially when that realism comes at a price to only female PC's. It's reminiscent of arguments based on 'stop not liking what I like'.

If you want to rp a female PC who experiences sexism, good on you, fight the good fight, because Realism!™. But at least try to see that many of us don't want that (especially if we mainly play female PC's). It is just bloody annoying.