424 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

Yeah, I love how people always claim 'realism' when they want to keep or maintain some sort of irritating social stigma. You hardly get anyone shouting realism about the fact that poor Hawke had brightly coloured fabrics to wear or that the undergarments weren't really well-thought out.

[Nefla]

1) Well funny you should mention this. Lets take a look at the real world as an example. We have women in the military, we have gay people in the miltary we have black people in the military. Are you honestly telling me that nobody in the world at this moment in time thinks that because you are black, gay or a woman that you should not be in the military?  Think hard before you answer that question.

 

2) In that case lets get rid of homosexuality/transgenderism in video games then. No? Didn't think so.

 

3) I'm not saying society cannot change. Maybe one day the writers will decide that this is no longer an issue but I'm guessing for now the time has not arrived. If it has hoorah! we can all get back to killing darkspawn or whatever. Some would indeed argue that our progression is not actually a progression but a loss of a moral compass. That is another discussion entirely though.

 

4) (For about the 50th time) I am not saying the game is uninteresting without sexism. I am saying getting rid of it just because it upsets a few people is a bad idea rather than having it make sense lore wise.

 

1)Somewhere in some other culture sure there are people who would be shocked by a female/black/gay soldier. I have never met such a person. I do not live in a place or a culture where someone would go "A black soldier?! What's the world coming to!" or "A gay guy that's not a hairstylist?! My head just exploded!" or "A woman doctor?! They don't make those!" This mindset is idiotic. If you want to portray idiotic characters, this is a good way to do it, however if you're throwing stuff like that in to an otherwise normal conversation it just makes the player go O_o

 

2)The lore doesn't contradict homosexuality or transgenderism. It contradicts sexism. We have powerful female leaders, soldiers, etc...We also have established openly gay and transgender characters (even an established gay female ruler). You never see anyone make homophobic remarks, and you never even see npcs making sexist remarks against other npcs (ex:"Meredith shouldn't be Knight Commander, women can't lead or fight!") only against the player. There is no reason to treat casual sexism as normal when it ISN'T normal in the lore and you can't even talk back against it.

 

3)Hey, guess what? You want to know how society can change? By not being casually sexist in media. We choose to perpetuate something negative or not. If the sexism was part of a social commentary and you could overcome it and find a solution then great...but you can't. You just have to accept all the "hurdur wimin soldier?! It's like I'm seein' a unicorn!" and are given no way to respond beyond the occasional "oh you" type response.

 

4)I can bet you the number of people sexism offends is FAR greater than the number of people who would be UPSET that it was taken out. Clearly you like sexism in games and think it's great and "realistic" or maybe you want to live in a sexist world where women are subservient to men and are living out your fantasy through the game. Most would either be glad of its' removal, or not notice. The women would be glad at not being harassed, and the male players who play as men would not even know something had changed since there is zero dialogue that is sexist against men.

[JimboGee]

I thought an appeal to Realism!™ would come up at some time. Of course it wouldn't. It's history, it happened (for real). Tell me, how is leaving out the real world sexism going to ruin the true and accurate depiction of the imaginary world of Thedas? Reminding you of course that the real world sexism you seem to think is sacrosanct, because Realism!™ actually only exists if you're playing a female PC. It's not even present if you play as a male PC.

Yes the writers are depicting a world where there are bad things happening, and yes, there will be some things I don't like, I too can accept it and move on. I can accept that being an elf might put me in a situation where I experience racism, because it will occur whether I play as a male or female elf. I can accept that if I play a mage, pro Templar NPC's will want to imprison me, because that will occur whether I play as a male or female mage. Gender is irrelevant to how those arcs play out. Telling people to 'move on' or 'get over it, because Realism!™' is not an argument, especially when that realism comes at a price to only female PC's. It's reminiscent of arguments based on 'stop not liking what I like'.

If you want to rp a female PC who experiences sexism, good on you, fight the good fight, because Realism!™. But at least try to see that many of us don't want that (especially if we mainly play female PC's). It is just bloody annoying.

Clearly we have a problem with people not reading my posts properly. I can always tell this because they tend to write the exact opposite of what I wrote and pass it off as something I said, I said sexism is not an issue that bothers me because I have NO desire to play as a female character. Even if the problem were reversed I still wouldnt have a problem with it because it would be a minor issue to me.

 

You cannot remove something just because you do not like the subject matter. Lets say one person comes along and says they want sexism removed. then another gets uppity and decides they want slavery removed. Another comes along and decides they want homosexuality removed. Another decides religion should go. and on and on until nothing is left. What is there left to write about? People are starting to pick out the things in the game they do not like. Things which do not make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Does you constantly being derided physically stop you from completing the game? No. If I can't get the things that bug me removed from the game why should other people be afforded the same luxury?

 

I would seriously like you to offer me a shred of proof as to how you are constantly be derided by everyone you meet throughout the game. Because I would stake my bank details on it being a handful of times. Either that or from the same one or two characters spoken to multiple times throughout the game. There is no way on gods green earth that the writers put that much effort into a sexism script considering how much they talk about their budgets.

[Darth Krytie]

Okay, I'll bite:

1. No one in this thread claimed the sexism female pcs encountered was constant. We did say it was a handful of times and we commented that it was jarring.

2. We weren't even talking about every instance of it...just the ones that were lore-inconsistent.

3. This is the suggestion section. We are making a suggestion. Did you tell the people who want hetero-chromatic eyes they have no business asking for that? Did you tell the people who wanted the Arcane Warrior spec back that they shouldn't ask for that? Because it's the same principle.

4. The point I originally made was that I shouldn't have to face casual sexism in a game I can avoid by playing as a guy. If there was some sort of balancing factor on the other end. If dudes faced something similar in a specific setting of the game, I wouldn't complain. But as it is right now, dudes can generally play out their hero fantasy without getting all sorts of 'you can hold a sword, all by yourself' type comments and ladies cannot.

 

DA2 was better in this regard than Origins. But they also had some femHawke specific dialogue that was awkward. So, yes, it's not that bad. I think it can be better. Hence the suggestion. Which they can heed or ignore. Asking isn't a crime.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Why is it perfectly acceptable for people in Thedas to not comment on a human's skin color in a derogatory way (like Isabella's), but it's so inconceivable for us to ask for less sexism towards women?

 

If you want the world to be properly medieval, bring back true, cold-blooded racism then. Not towards dwarves and elves... but towards humans. Because of their skin color. Bring back slavery - not of "city elves" but of black people. So that black people playing this game can be nice and uncomfortable, like how some women are currently feeling.

I would be completely fine with that as well

 

 

3)Hey, guess what? You want to know how society can change? By not being casually sexist in media. We choose to perpetuate something negative or not. If the sexism was part of a social commentary and you could overcome it and find a solution then great...but you can't. You just have to accept all the "hurdur wimin soldier?! It's like I'm seein' a unicorn!" and are given no way to respond beyond the occasional "oh you" type response.
 

I fully agree that media needs to be responsible because of its huge influence on people's minds. But you're overreacting if you think it portrays women as weak. All it perpetuates is that it's surprising to see a woman on the front lines- something which is harmless and the actual case in most countries.

 

There's a huge difference between a fictional character's opinion and the media's actual treatment of the subject. When hollywood constantly portrays women as ditsy, helpless, sex objects needing a man, minorities as uneducated, unlawful and lazy or the japanese as weak- that's harmful, regardless of whether the movie is full of characters screaming that women minorities and the japanese are awesome.

 

No where in Dragon Age are women portrayed as inferior, therefore I am completely fine with it. Whether or not that makes these contentious remarks consistent with lore or not is a different matter, but you are flat out overreacting.

[JimboGee]

1)Somewhere in some other culture sure there are people who would be shocked by a female/black/gay soldier. I have never met such a person. I do not live in a place or a culture where someone would go "A black soldier?! What's the world coming to!" or "A gay guy that's not a hairstylist?! My head just exploded!" or "A woman doctor?! They don't make those!" This mindset is idiotic. If you want to portray idiotic characters, this is a good way to do it, however if you're throwing stuff like that in to an otherwise normal conversation it just makes the player go O_o

 

2)The lore doesn't contradict homosexuality or transgenderism. It contradicts sexism. We have powerful female leaders, soldiers, etc...We also have established openly gay and transgender characters (even an established gay female ruler). You never see anyone make homophobic remarks, and you never even see npcs making sexist remarks against other npcs (ex:"Meredith shouldn't be Knight Commander, women can't lead or fight!") only against the player. There is no reason to treat casual sexism as normal when it ISN'T normal in the lore and you can't even talk back against it.

 

3)Hey, guess what? You want to know how society can change? By not being casually sexist in media. We choose to perpetuate something negative or not. If the sexism was part of a social commentary and you could overcome it and find a solution then great...but you can't. You just have to accept all the "hurdur wimin soldier?! It's like I'm seein' a unicorn!" and are given no way to respond beyond the occasional "oh you" type response.

 

4)I can bet you the number of people sexism offends is FAR greater than the number of people who would be UPSET that it was taken out. Clearly you like sexism in games and think it's great and "realistic" or maybe you want to live in a sexist world where women are subservient to men and are living out your fantasy through the game. Most would either be glad of its' removal, or not notice. The women would be glad at not being harassed, and the male players who play as men would not even know something had changed since there is zero dialogue that is sexist against men.

 

1) Well I think we can all agree my first mistake was asking you to think carefully before you responded. I dont live in the aforementioned culture either, but there are some people who still dont think people should hold certain positions because of gender colour or sexual preference.

 

2) I didn't say that it did. You need to re-read your comments and then read again how I responded.

 

3) I had to laugh at this one. Please educate me on how the media is casually sexist. I'm dying to hear this one.

 

4) So because I'm not affected by a certain situation that means I like it? Well let's use your logic on you and say that because slavery didnt bother you you condone slavery shall we? Or could it be that it was just that this subject did not resonate with you as much as others?

[Mockingword]

"A black soldier?! What's the world coming to!"

 

"A gay guy that's not a hairstylist?! My head just exploded!"

 

"A woman doctor?! They don't make those!"

Pure poetic genius.

 

Nefla for chief dialogue writer.

[Darth Krytie]

Just curious, but do you (JimboGee, other dudes/ladies saying this suggestion is pointless) even have a dog in this fight? Like, do you play female Wardens/Hawkes? Do you intend to play as a female Inquisitor? I mean, would you even know whether or not they took my suggestion to heart at all come gameplay time?

[The Hierophant]

oops. reread last few pages.

[Zazzerka]

While "A gay guy that's not a hairstylist?!" might not happen often, "A guy hairstylist that's not a gay!?" sure does.

 

But that comes down to prejudice towards hairstylists, not sexism, the former being something which I think BioWare handles very well.

[JimboGee]

Okay, I'll bite:

1. No one in this thread claimed the sexism female pcs encountered was constant. We did say it was a handful of times and we commented that it was jarring.

2. We weren't even talking about every instance of it...just the ones that were lore-inconsistent.

3. This is the suggestion section. We are making a suggestion. Did you tell the people who want hetero-chromatic eyes they have no business asking for that? Did you tell the people who wanted the Arcane Warrior spec back that they shouldn't ask for that? Because it's the same principle.

4. The point I originally made was that I shouldn't have to face casual sexism in a game I can avoid by playing as a guy. If there was some sort of balancing factor on the other end. If dudes faced something similar in a specific setting of the game, I wouldn't complain. But as it is right now, dudes can generally play out their hero fantasy without getting all sorts of 'you can hold a sword, all by yourself' type comments and ladies cannot.

 

DA2 was better in this regard than Origins. But they also had some femHawke specific dialogue that was awkward. So, yes, it's not that bad. I think it can be better. Hence the suggestion. Which they can heed or ignore. Asking isn't a crime.

 

1) Again, who are these NPC's of which you speak? Names? Lines of dialogue? Clearly it couldn't have been that jarring if it's barely memorable.

 

2) Does it matter whether its lore consistent or not? sexism is sexism. Thats like saying theres such a thing as positive racism.

 

3) I understand you're making a suggestion. But as I have already pointed out there are things in the game I find jarring. if I have no chance of having them removed because of my personal beliefs, why should you be afforded the same luxury based on gender?

 

Again there is a difference between changing something because it makes the game as a whole better and changing it because it upsets you.

 

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row [...] It's like the fact you can now get fined £1000 in the UK for smoking a cigarette on a bus. Does nobody see this as a clear over reaction.Maybe if you stpped back from all the bra burning and let the smoke clear you would clearly see the issue is smaller than you are making it.

[Darth Krytie]

1) Again, who are these NPC's of which you speak? Names? Lines of dialogue? Clearly it couldn't have been that jarring if it's barely memorable.

 

2) Does it matter whether its lore consistent or not? sexism is sexism. Thats like saying theres such a thing as positive racism.

 

3) I understand you're making a suggestion. But as I have already pointed out there are things in the game I find jarring. if I have no chance of having them removed because of my personal beliefs, why should you be afforded the same luxury based on gender?

 

Again there is a difference between changing something because it makes the game as a whole better and changing it because it upsets you.

 

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row[...]Now that crap gets you sacked. Sacked! I mean really? It's like the fact you can now get fined £1000 in the UK for smoking a cigarette on a bus. Does nobody see this as a clear over reaction.Maybe if you stpped back from all the bra burning and let the smoke clear you would clearly see the issue is smaller than you are making it.

So terrible that sexual assault is a firing offense. Life must really be hard for you now that you don't have the right to touch someone else's body without their consent. I'm not making the issue huge at all. It was a tiny request and I said it wasn't that bad, but I'd appreciate it if they took it into consideration. I've talked to some of the devs personally while at a Con. about similar things and they were nothing but enthusiastic and friendly in response. There's no issue here but what you're making of it.

 

And if you want to tone down the blatant misogynistic drivel you're spouting at me, I'd really appreciate it.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

well ok I'm stepping back from Jimbo now

[Mockingword]

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row.[...] Now that crap gets you sacked. Sacked! I mean really? It's like the fact you can now get fined £1000 in the UK for smoking a cigarette on a bus. Does nobody see this as a clear over reaction.Maybe if you stpped back from all the bra burning and let the smoke clear you would clearly see the issue is smaller than you are making it.

Such masculine passion. I do believe I'm gettin' the vapours.

 

I'd let you squeeze my butt like a stress ball.

[Bugsie]

Clearly we have a problem with people not reading my posts properly. I can always tell this because they tend to write the exact opposite of what I wrote and pass it off as something I said, I said sexism is not an issue that bothers me because I have NO desire to play as a female character. Even if the problem were reversed I still wouldnt have a problem with it because it would be a minor issue to me.

 

You cannot remove something just because you do not like the subject matter. Lets say one person comes along and says they want sexism removed. then another gets uppity and decides they want slavery removed. Another comes along and decides they want homosexuality removed. Another decides religion should go. and on and on until nothing is left. What is there left to write about? People are starting to pick out the things in the game they do not like. Things which do not make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Does you constantly being derided physically stop you from completing the game? No. If I can't get the things that bug me removed from the game why should other people be afforded the same luxury?

 

I would seriously like you to offer me a shred of proof as to how you are constantly be derided by everyone you meet throughout the game. Because I would stake my bank details on it being a handful of times. Either that or from the same one or two characters spoken to multiple times throughout the game. There is no way on gods green earth that the writers put that much effort into a sexism script considering how much they talk about their budgets.

And clearly we have a problem with you misreading what the OP was asking for and what others have reiterated again and again in this thread.  I can always tell this because they tend to repeat that no one understands what they say over and over again.  What are you arguing for then?  Because looks a lot like ‘You can’t get what you want, because Realism!™’ and ‘I don’t see the sexism’, ‘You can’t always get what you want’ and the old chestnut ‘it’s a slippery slope what will people want not to be included next?’   Frankly I'm starting to question why I'm bothering to respond to you with arguments like these, but I’ll give it another go.

 

If it’s irrelevant, stupid and in no way affects overall gameplay, or the gameplay of others who never noticed it was even there in the first place (such as yourself – who admitted as such) then asking that it not to be included or made gender neutral it’s not unreasonable.  If the game constantly derided me, I wouldn't play it, neither would many others I suspect.  It’s supposed to be fun.  In regard to what ‘annoys you’, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but those annoyances are likely present for EVERYONE not just you as a male PC.  If enough people rail against it then I'm sure you have an argument for it not to be included.  In this case a number of female players (and a few males) have said they are annoyed at the presence of gender specific dialogue that’s derogatory or negative, especially (and I have to reiterate this for the 50th time (hyperbole™)) its only present if you play a female PC.  

At no point did I or anyone else say that we are 'constantly being derided'.  Whether it’s a handful or many - it's irrelevant!  It Exists! It's annoying! What part of that don't you understand?  Or are you so caught up that removing those 'handful of times' is going to affect you and you need to reiterate to us that we need to be told to just move on and get over it? 

 

I'm over it, really I am. I'm not upset, you can stop making out as if we’re being hysterical about rampant sexism.  I'm just perplexed why, in a fantasy world that purports to treat the sexes equally, actually states that when you create a character, is created by a company that prides itself on the diversity of its characters, that these strange bits of dialogue need to, and actually, exist.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I remember being very surprised that, when meeting Loghain at Ostagar in Origins, the first thing he mentions about a male is that he seems more experienced than most recruits. The first thing he mentions about a female is that she's "pretty for a warden". Sexism even stretches to pretty important characters in the series and it definitely sent my opinion of Loghain even further into the hole after hearing both lines. 

[KaiserShep]

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row. [...] Now that crap gets you sacked. Sacked! I mean really? It's like the fact you can now get fined £1000 in the UK for smoking a cigarette on a bus. Does nobody see this as a clear over reaction.Maybe if you stpped back from all the bra burning and let the smoke clear you would clearly see the issue is smaller than you are making it.

 

Say whaaaaa?

[Bugsie]

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row. [...] Now that crap gets you sacked. Sacked! I mean really? It's like the fact you can now get fined £1000 in the UK for smoking a cigarette on a bus. Does nobody see this as a clear over reaction.Maybe if you stpped back from all the bra burning and let the smoke clear you would clearly see the issue is smaller than you are making it.

Unintentional hilarity.  I did not see that coming.

 

[Stelae]

May I propose a moment's silence in solidarity with Brother Jimbo?  Only consider, my brethren and ... sistren ... , the tragic mess his life has become now that he isn't allowed to sexually assault his colleagues in the workplace, or discharge carcinogens into a closed public space, without The Man getting all up in his grill.  Ponder, for a moment, the impact on his life, as he is forced to treat other people as professionals rather than squeaky toys, and consider the well being of travelers other than himself. 

 

Truly, his ilk are sore oppressed, and cannot express their inner nature without someone demanding that they act like a grown-up and a 21st century one at that.  Is it any wonder, then, that they strive to make themselves heard over issues that will never affect them anyway? 

[Mockingword]

If we're feeling sorry for anybody, it should be me. My self-esteem is entirely derived from assgrabs. I spend literally all day bending over in public places, and I scarcely get so much as a pinch.

[Bugsie]

May I propose a moment's silence in solidarity with Brother Jimbo?  Only consider, my brethren and ... sistren ... , the tragic mess his life has become now that he isn't allowed to sexually assault his colleagues in the workplace, or discharge carcinogens into a closed public space, without The Man getting all up in his grill.  Ponder, for a moment, the impact on his life, as he is forced to treat other people as professionals rather than squeaky toys, and consider the well being of travelers other than himself. 

 

Truly, his ilk are sore oppressed, and cannot express their inner nature without someone demanding that they act like a grown-up and a 21st century one at that.  Is it any wonder, then, that they strive to make themselves heard over issues that will never affect them anyway? 

because Realism!™ just isn't fun anymore.

[Banxey]

I hope that since Cassandra can be spec'd to break down gates, she can also be spec'd to rip the arms off of men who grab at her and beat them to death with them.

 

On topic, I thought Mort de Minuit gave a good example. And while (as I said earlier) it doesn't bother me as much as other people, I can empathise enough with the rest of the people here to understand why it is important for you to make the suggestion. I have read some interesting perspectives in this thread (as well as one rather disgusting one). So I hope we can overcome whatever the **** that was and keep the debate respectful.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I remember being very surprised that, when meeting Loghain at Ostagar in Origins, the first thing he mentions about a male is that he seems more experienced than most recruits. The first thing he mentions about a female is that she's "pretty for a warden". Sexism even stretches to pretty important characters in the series and it definitely sent my opinion of Loghain even further into the hole after hearing both lines. 

However Loghain follows that with "Don't let anyone tell you you don't belong. The first Warden Maric brought to Ferelden. Best warrior I've ever seen."

 

Oh yeah, he sure is sexist alright. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

However Loghain follows that with "Don't let anyone tell you you don't belong. The first Warden Maric brought to Ferelden. Best warrior I've ever seen."

 

Oh yeah, he sure is sexist alright. 

He says nothing about a female warden's own attributes, except that she's pretty. He personally compliments a male warden and doesn't feel the need to point out that some men can be capable wardens. It may not be as virulent an attitude as our friend Jimbo, but it is certainly an attitude with sexist tones.

[slimgrin]

Just curious, but do you (JimboGee, other dudes/ladies saying this suggestion is pointless) even have a dog in this fight? Like, do you play female Wardens/Hawkes? Do you intend to play as a female Inquisitor? I mean, would you even know whether or not they took my suggestion to heart at all come gameplay time?

 

 

Play female whenever I can In most games. So maybe, as a male, I don't quite respond to all the sexism you see.