424 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He says nothing about a female warden's own attributes, except that she's pretty. He personally compliments a male warden and doesn't feel the need to point out that some men can be capable wardens. It may not be as virulent an attitude as our friend Jimbo, but it is certainly an attitude with sexist tones.

So telling a woman to ignore the comments of sexists is sexist?

 

I should also point out that he seems to only do this to the City Elf Origin. The other origins he doesn't comment on gender at all, but rather them being a Cousland, a Mage, a Dalish, or a Dwarf. 

[Darth Krytie]

Play female whenever I can In most games. So maybe, as a male, I don't quite respond to all the sexism you see.

 

Fair enough, then. It's not that bad, as I've stated numerous times, but it could be improved, which is what this section is for. If anyone has the impression that I'm crying into my beer every time I play Origins and remember how much it annoys me, well I'm not. It's just made more noticeable for me because I play both male and female Wardens and Hawkes and can notice the difference.

 

I just think this suggestion is on par with people asking for better hair in the character creator or someone wanting the mage hats to be less dumb. When people have insinuated that I'm insulting art or making a mountain out of a molehill or overreacting, I get frustrated with the attitude.

[Mockingword]

However Loghain follows that with "Don't let anyone tell you you don't belong. The first Warden Maric brought to Ferelden. Best warrior I've ever seen."

 

Oh yeah, he sure is sexist alright. 

If he's not sexist, then he must think my male Warden is ugly.

 

Oh god, I think I'm going to cry.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

So telling a woman to ignore the comments of sexists is sexist?

 

I should also point out that he seems to only do this to the City Elf Origin. The other origins he doesn't comment on gender at all, but rather them being a Cousland, a Mage, a Dalish, or a Dwarf. 

The sexism is in the need to bring her gender, and more glaringly so, her appearance, into the forefront of the conversation. A male recruit doesn't need to be questioned, he's an accepted asset. All that matters is that he's experienced, a fact that is immediately apparent. What's the first thing Loghain notices about a woman? How attractive she is. What's the second thing? Well, nothing about this one, apparently. But he assures her that at least once he was able to notice other qualities, so we're to accept he's very open minded.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The sexism is in the need to bring her gender, and more glaringly so, her appearance, into the forefront of the conversation. A male recruit doesn't need to be questioned, he's an accepted asset. All that matters is that he's experienced, a fact that is immediately apparent. What's the first thing Loghain notices about a woman? How attractive she is. What's the second thing? Well, nothing about this one, apparently. But he assures her that at least once he was able to notice other qualities, so we're to accept he's very open minded.

To be honest, I always more attributed it to the Warden being an elf, and thus perceived as attractive to humans. As I said, when playing as a woman human, dwarf, Dalish or Mage he makes no mention of gender or appearance at all. Well, minus the "You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?"

[Mockingword]

Okay, so he's racist.

 

Well, we already knew that.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

To be honest, I always more attributed it to the Warden being an elf, and thus perceived as attractive to humans. As I said, when playing as a woman human, dwarf, Dalish or Mage he makes no mention of gender or appearance at all. Well, minus the "You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?"

That he thinks a city elf woman is strikingly attractive and not a human, dwarven, etc, doesn't excuse the issue. The fact is, this man is a superior and many years your senior. You're about his daughter's age. That's just uncomfortable. When would it be considered alright for an authority figure in the modern world to tell a new female recruit right off that bat that he found her attractive? That's seriously creepy and not something we would generally expect women to deal with in the real world. I understand it's not the real world, but acceptable behavior is immutable. If we accept it's not alright here, it's not really alright in Thedas, either. It certainly can't be written off because, "sexism is alright if only used tied to racism". 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That he thinks a city elf woman is strikingly attractive and not a human, dwarven, etc, doesn't excuse the issue. The fact is, this man is a superior and many years your senior. You're about his daughter's age. That's just uncomfortable. When would it be considered alright for an authority figure in the modern world to tell a new female recruit right off that bat that he found her attractive? That's seriously creepy and not something we would generally expect women to deal with in the real world. I understand it's not the real world, but acceptable behavior is immutable. If we accept it's not alright here, it's not really alright in Thedas, either. It certainly can't be written off because, "sexism is alright if only used tied to racism". 

That was not my intention. I was simply providing possible alternatives since this only occurs to female Wardens from one of six origins. If he said it a female from every origin, then that would be different. Why is City Elf the exception to him in this regard?

[Mockingword]

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII'm pretty sure it's because he's racist.

[J4N3_M3]

Anyone who thinks we need realism in Dragon Age should take a step back and look at the fact that there are dwarves, elves and magic in this game. So much for realism!

as for the sexual assault stuff that gets you fired....well, be glad it only gets you fired and that no one is pressing charges against you for being a sexual offender because that's what one is. That's like those homophobic assholes that don't like gay guys because they don't want to get hit on by gay guys. Well, newsflash, that's how women feel if they are the target of unwanted sexual advances by guys who don't know any boundaries and think they are entitled to some ass grabbing.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

That was not my intention. I was simply providing possible alternatives since this only occurs to female Wardens from one of six origins. If he said it a female from every origin, then that would be different. Why is City Elf the exception to him in this regard?

I'm fully willing to accept that it is because he only thinks she's attractive. That doesn't mean he's being any less sexist in blurting it out. Sexism doesn't require you to think every woman is hot. 

[Ryzaki]

So telling a woman to ignore the comments of sexists is sexist?

 

I should also point out that he seems to only do this to the City Elf Origin. The other origins he doesn't comment on gender at all, but rather them being a Cousland, a Mage, a Dalish, or a Dwarf. 

 

Good grief is their any main male in DA that doesn't have elf fever? Loghain Alistair and Maric apparently have that in common. XD

[oceanicsurvivor]

My point was that there is always going to be racism, sexism, homophobia etc. It's part of life. The game reflects that. it's what gives characters flavour even though you might not like it. Asking for less sexism is like asking for less crime. A nice idea but one that wont happen.

 

You keep using the word irrelevant and yet in almost every fantasy based (and even some that are not)RPG's, some form of sexism or racism occurs. That doesn't strike me as irrelevant.  It's not about honouring the past because these are still very much relevant issues within the human existence. My point about the 1950's was to show how silly the post I was reffering to was that somehow racism or sexism from one party is acceptable but not from another.

 

There needs to be some sort of conflict within games it helps to create a story. If nobody was racist or sexist the characters in the game would be very boring. I'm not saying it's blanket sexism but there are going to be some groups of people who think one type of person is inferior to another type. This is and should be reflected in video games. When you play as a Dwarf/Elf/Human you have to accept that not everyone is going to greet you with open arms.

 

___

 

Again I am not saying this is a recreation of the real world I am saying there is nothing wrong with using real world issues and putting a twist on them.They just happen to be ones you don't like.

 

To answer your last question it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I dont play as a female in Dragon Age. it wouldnt even bother me if the entire game was full of women who thought men were idiots. I just ignore it and move on.

___

 

Clearly we have a problem with people not reading my posts properly. I can always tell this because they tend to write the exact opposite of what I wrote and pass it off as something I said, I said sexism is not an issue that bothers me because I have NO desire to play as a female character. Even if the problem were reversed I still wouldnt have a problem with it because it would be a minor issue to me.

 

You cannot remove something just because you do not like the subject matter. Lets say one person comes along and says they want sexism removed. then another gets uppity and decides they want slavery removed. Another comes along and decides they want homosexuality removed. Another decides religion should go. and on and on until nothing is left. What is there left to write about? People are starting to pick out the things in the game they do not like. Things which do not make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Does you constantly being derided physically stop you from completing the game? No. If I can't get the things that bug me removed from the game why should other people be afforded the same luxury?

 

I would seriously like you to offer me a shred of proof as to how you are constantly be derided by everyone you meet throughout the game. Because I would stake my bank details on it being a handful of times. Either that or from the same one or two characters spoken to multiple times throughout the game. There is no way on gods green earth that the writers put that much effort into a sexism script considering how much they talk about their budgets.

 

Ok...you're speaking in the abstract here. It's... sexism, homophobia, racism is what 'gives characters flavor'. You realize these are real things? Real bigotries that people actually act on? That's not 'flavor'. And asking for less sexism IS asking for less crime, ya know, what with violence against women and all being a thing...that again, isn't an abstract concept...its actually a very real one which negatively influence all women (and men) in some way/shape/form, typically on a daily basis.

 

And really? we can't have an interesting world without racism and sexism? Mage/Templar conflict, Qunari Invasion, Orlesian nobles fighting for the crown, Darkspawn, the sky getting torn open, Dragons, Old God Baby. Seems like a plenty interesting world to me.

 

Also what is this suuuuuper interesting DA plotline you're referencing that deals with sexism? Now, racism/classism, yes, but again the distinction being that they've transferred a real world issue onto a fictional group where as the people who deal with sexism in real life still deal with sexism in the game.

 

____

 

There is no twist! Rascism towards the elves=twist on a real world issue. Sexism towards women=replicating a real world issue but with 'hey look a Dragon' thrown in.

 

I can't say I'm surprised you don't play as a female character...but then, you literally have never experienced what women have in either the real world or the fictional one...so since this has no bearing on your playthrough...what's your point in all this?

 

____

If the problem were reversed in the game it would be a novelty. 'Wow, look how crazy messed up this world is, who would treat men like this! Insanity!' So, still, not the same. Because, again, you can turn your game off and go back to this world where 'sexism is not an issue that bothers' you.

 

Oy...Daveth hits on you like a creeper...there's the comment about being the bravest one there...Jory can't believe they'd dare let a woman be a Warden...That's just some of the Ostagar stuff I remember. Now, then, I doubt that's enough proof that we are 'constantly derided', to you, since you haven't played through and that clearly makes you the expert. Its not constant but it is there and it is pointless within the established context of the world.

 

 

 

3) I had to laugh at this one. Please educate me on how the media is casually sexist. I'm dying to hear this one.

 

Lets see...

 

how about the phrase 'strong female character', which implies that the only female characters worth our attention are Buffy the Vampire Slayer etc. And that a diverse range of women aren't actually needed/don't need to be seen/not worth peoples time.  The equivalent 'strong male character', would be what? any male protag ever? b/c they don't have to justifiy their existence in any type of media EVER.  (They also are the leads in pretty much all media ever)

 

How about the fact that male authors get asked 'how they manage to write such good women characters' CONSTANTLY, as if it'd be ok if you could only successfully write less then half of the human population. You know what a woman author who can only write women is called? Unemployed.

 

How about the way the news media framed the Steubenville Rapists as tragic b/c they were teenagers who raped a girl, posted pics and tweets of it, and then got convicted and yeah, they lost their futures. But the media stood there for days talking about how sad it was to see the boys cry as their JUSTLY DESERVED fates were handed down. No mention of how messed up it was that their victim had to live with what they had done to her for the rest of her life.

 

How about the casual messed up lyrics of Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines? Which imply that sexual consent isn't mandatory and that Robin Thicke can 'just know' that she 'wants it', a common phrased used by real world rapist I might add. BUT HEY, SONG OF THE SUMMER!

 

How about that the movie 'The Heat' last summer was like THE only female lead major release, amongst Man of Steel etc etc.

 

How about the fact that lots of people were surprised when Bridesmaid's came out because it was a whole group of women being funny for TWO WHOLE HOURS. Which never happens. Ever. Because women can't be nearly as funny as male comedians. PFFT.

 

 

 

1) Again, who are these NPC's of which you speak? Names? Lines of dialogue? Clearly it couldn't have been that jarring if it's barely memorable.

 

 

3) I understand you're making a suggestion. But as I have already pointed out there are things in the game I find jarring. if I have no chance of having them removed because of my personal beliefs, why should you be afforded the same luxury based on gender?

 

Again there is a difference between changing something because it makes the game as a whole better and changing it because it upsets you.

 

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row [...]Now that crap gets you sacked. Sacked! I mean really? It's like the fact you can now get fined £1000 in the UK for smoking a cigarette on a bus. Does nobody see this as a clear over reaction.Maybe if you stpped back from all the bra burning and let the smoke clear you would clearly see the issue is smaller than you are making it.

 

1) Daveth and Jory at the very least. How about you spend two hours playing the game as a woman JUST THAT FAR and see some of this for yourself.

 

2) Luxury based on gender...tell us about that why don't you, us women folk know not of this fabled luxury you speak of

 

3)HOLY...no. IF YOU VIOLATE A WOMAN' S OR MAN'S BODY in that way it is a CRIME. and if it happens in the work place it is harassment. And if you are out there doing that, you bet YOUR own NOT GROPED ASS you should be fired.

 

4) You brought up bra burning...really. Seriously? That's just pathetic. For a quick history lesson, that phrase is based on a protest where no bras were actually burned, it was created by a casually sexist media . I'm sure some bras have been burned since then, after the phrase spread. But hey, bringing up the idea of bra burning feminist is yet another example of CASUAL SEXISM; where you deflect from real issues brought up by women by calling them feminist in the hopes it will shame them into silence!!! It's funny how those examples you asked for just keep casually coming up huh.   SO WEIRD!

[Zazzerka]

I played an elven female mage, once. It was probably my favourite playthrough. The discrimination was threefold, but you know what I did?

 

I set them on fire.

[Ryzaki]

....I thought 3 was an attempt at humor (horrible humor but still humor) from Jimbo. Please don't let 3 be a serious point. I just...wat.

[Ryzaki]

I played an elven female mage, once. It was probably my favourite playthrough. The discrimination was threefold, but you know what I did?

 

I set them on fire.

 

So did I.

[Banxey]

I've been thinking about why it may have irritated people, because it didn't me. And I thought that maybe it wouldn't have struck such a negative chord with them had there not been so much focus on the PC being a female Warden. By the time you've finished Ostagar (ignoring the Origin specific interactions with Loghain and the Origins themselves) you have Alistair wondering why there aren't many female Grey Wardens, Daveth not expecting you to be a woman, Jory saying he didn't think there were women in the Wardens, and the questionable dialogue in the Korcari Wilds mentioned earlier in this thread which equates to "I'm a woman. I suck." I'm not saying those in and of themselves are offensive (I didn't find them to be, with the exception of the last). But perhaps it is slight overkill.

 

You'd think Fereldens would know better, since they all apparently know that the Wardens take skilled warriors. It's not like there are no visible female warriors. Not to mention their current King's mother was the head of the cavalry during the war, while his grandmother was the famous rebel Queen. They know women can be warriors, but it seems that despite several women shaping the history of Thedas, they don't see their skill as equal or at least, that is the implication that the comments create.

[Banxey]

....I thought 3 was an attempt at humor (horrible humor but still humor) from Jimbo. Please don't let 3 be a serious point. I just...wat.

 

It left me gobsmacked, but I thought afterwards he had to be trolling. But who knows. It was disgusting either way.

[Bugsie]

I can understand why people can't see it, i personally wasnt looking for it and didn't expect it. It isn't rampant for sure, but when it occasionally hits you, it's jarring, because it doesn't feel like a natural part of this fantasy world. It can take you out of the moment, and not in a good way, more in a 'not this crap again' way.

I played an elven female mage, once. It was probably my favourite playthrough. The discrimination was threefold, but you know what I did?
 
I set them on fire.

I haven't played origins for a while (it's on my 360), but I just got a PC version. I think you've sold me on what my first playthrough is going to be.

[Ispan]

Asking for the pointless sexist comments (and not the ones that relate to the development as particular characters as "bad") is a small and reasonable request.  It's easily implemented and doesn't cost anything!  It's the perfect kind of change, and it's really unpleasant that people are mocked for this suggestion.

 

To people who want sexism in the game because it's "real," why don't we include the ACTUAL real differences between the genders?  Why don't femWardens and femHawke have to stop by the drugstore to pick up supplies for that time of the month?  That's a REAL gender difference.  Why doesn't Zevran (or Fenris) need to use protection when I bring him into my tent?  Because this is a game and IT'S NOT FUN.  Because we deal with that stuff in real life and it has no place in the Dragon Age universe.  Female PCs don't have to deal with hormones and accidental pregnancies, why choose to include sexism?

 

Edit: added Fenris above

[Nefla]

There was some dialogue with Leliana where she implies that elves were almost like pretty pets for humans and you had the opportunity to politely and gently point out that she was being racist "you're not cruel but you still see us differently" she didn't even realize she was being that way and you were able to change her mind. If we could do something like that when someone makes a casual/benevolent sexist remark that would be great. We should be able to hit the Howes, Trians, and Gamlens of the world though.

[JimboGee]

Ok...you're speaking in the abstract here. It's... sexism, homophobia, racism is what 'gives characters flavor'. You realize these are real things? Real bigotries that people actually act on? That's not 'flavor'. And asking for less sexism IS asking for less crime, ya know, what with violence against women and all being a thing...that again, isn't an abstract concept...its actually a very real one which negatively influence all women (and men) in some way/shape/form, typically on a daily basis.

 

And really? we can't have an interesting world without racism and sexism? Mage/Templar conflict, Qunari Invasion, Orlesian nobles fighting for the crown, Darkspawn, the sky getting torn open, Dragons, Old God Baby. Seems like a plenty interesting world to me.

 

Also what is this suuuuuper interesting DA plotline you're referencing that deals with sexism? Now, racism/classism, yes, but again the distinction being that they've transferred a real world issue onto a fictional group where as the people who deal with sexism in real life still deal with sexism in the game.

 

____

 

There is no twist! Rascism towards the elves=twist on a real world issue. Sexism towards women=replicating a real world issue but with 'hey look a Dragon' thrown in.

 

I can't say I'm surprised you don't play as a female character...but then, you literally have never experienced what women have in either the real world or the fictional one...so since this has no bearing on your playthrough...what's your point in all this?

 

____

If the problem were reversed in the game it would be a novelty. 'Wow, look how crazy messed up this world is, who would treat men like this! Insanity!' So, still, not the same. Because, again, you can turn your game off and go back to this world where 'sexism is not an issue that bothers' you.

 

Oy...Daveth hits on you like a creeper...there's the comment about being the bravest one there...Jory can't believe they'd dare let a woman be a Warden...That's just some of the Ostagar stuff I remember. Now, then, I doubt that's enough proof that we are 'constantly derided', to you, since you haven't played through and that clearly makes you the expert. Its not constant but it is there and it is pointless within the established context of the world.

 

 

 

Lets see...

 

how about the phrase 'strong female character', which implies that the only female characters worth our attention are Buffy the Vampire Slayer etc. And that a diverse range of women aren't actually needed/don't need to be seen/not worth peoples time.  The equivalent 'strong male character', would be what? any male protag ever? b/c they don't have to justifiy their existence in any type of media EVER.  (They also are the leads in pretty much all media ever)

 

How about the fact that male authors get asked 'how they manage to write such good women characters' CONSTANTLY, as if it'd be ok if you could only successfully write less then half of the human population. You know what a woman author who can only write women is called? Unemployed.

 

How about the way the news media framed the Steubenville Rapists as tragic b/c they were teenagers who raped a girl, posted pics and tweets of it, and then got convicted and yeah, they lost their futures. But the media stood there for days talking about how sad it was to see the boys cry as their JUSTLY DESERVED fates were handed down. No mention of how messed up it was that their victim had to live with what they had done to her for the rest of her life.

 

How about the casual messed up lyrics of Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines? Which imply that sexual consent isn't mandatory and that Robin Thicke can 'just know' that she 'wants it', a common phrased used by real world rapist I might add. BUT HEY, SONG OF THE SUMMER!

 

How about that the movie 'The Heat' last summer was like THE only female lead major release, amongst Man of Steel etc etc.

 

How about the fact that lots of people were surprised when Bridesmaid's came out because it was a whole group of women being funny for TWO WHOLE HOURS. Which never happens. Ever. Because women can't be nearly as funny as male comedians. PFFT.

 

 

 

 

1) Daveth and Jory at the very least. How about you spend two hours playing the game as a woman JUST THAT FAR and see some of this for yourself.

 

2) Luxury based on gender...tell us about that why don't you, us women folk know not of this fabled luxury you speak of

 

3)HOLY...no. IF YOU VIOLATE A WOMAN' S OR MAN'S BODY in that way it is a CRIME. and if it happens in the work place it is harassment. And if you are out there doing that, you bet YOUR own NOT GROPED ASS you should be fired.

 

4) You brought up bra burning...really. Seriously? That's just pathetic. For a quick history lesson, that phrase is based on a protest where no bras were actually burned, it was created by a casually sexist media . I'm sure some bras have been burned since then, after the phrase spread. But hey, bringing up the idea of bra burning feminist is yet another example of CASUAL SEXISM; where you deflect from real issues brought up by women by calling them feminist in the hopes it will shame them into silence!!! It's funny how those examples you asked for just keep casually coming up huh.   SO WEIRD!

 

1) Two people who end up dead... Yes a wonderful example there. I wonder why the games designers made it like that.

 

2) I was speaking about the luxury of having something removed that deeply offends you in game.

 

3) Really slapping someone on the behind is a violation? A sackable offence? Seriously get over yourself. It's not rape for goodness sake.

 

4) So what you saying is it's not ok for men to think that women can't do a job but it's ok for women to come out and say things like "Women are better drivers than men"?  Have you ever heard of the phrase "The pendulum has swung too far the other way"? No woman has ever been sacked for that comment.

 

You're being ridiculous. You're basically saying that Racism and sexism are ok as long as the actual person playing the game isnt offended,. Or better still not you!

 

You mention the rape case. Maybe quoting an underage drinker isn't the best option here.

 

Hah! Buffy the vampire slayer? Seriously?  Who's next Lara Croft? If your going to use female hero's at least make them real. If these were real world scenarios she would have been dead within the first two hours.

 

Name one world wide successful female comedian. No please go ahead I'll be here waiting. I'm talking Micheal Jackson famous by the way.

 

The major difference between most women and men is that women lead with he heart men with the head. It's our physical make-up. Women should be treated different because they are different. Men are supposed to be strong and do all the heavy lifting.

 

What about the BBC who constantly bang on about how great women are? They even have a show called womans hour. Now it could be argued that, that in itself is sexist. Why not mens hour? 

 

 

My point is I'm not saying women cannot be successful. Marie Curie, Joan of Arc Boudica. My favourite British monarch? Victoria I. There are women who have climbed mountains. I'm sure none of them would have done any of this had they spent their entire time beating down every man with a derogatory word to say about them.

[Mes]

 

You know what makes me angry about the whole sexism row. [...] Now that crap gets you sacked. Sacked! I mean really? 

 

       Wait wait sorry I still have a couple more pages of this thread to get through (stop moving so fast dangit) but I've got to comment on this before I forget. Oh my god this is comedy gold. You poor, oppressed lad you.

 

Well now that your true character has come forth (and I'm glad it has, it's always nice to get to know a person better), I think you're done here. Unless you want to keep providing us with some much needed comic relief.

[Zazzerka]

Yeah, ladies, can you name a good female comedian?

 

CHECK AND MATE

[Lady Nuggins]

Hey guys!  How's the discussion goi--

 

 

I vote we all agree to ignore Jimbo now.  I see him still derailing the convo up there, and frankly, it's going nowhere.  I'm more interested in what everyone else is saying.

 

There was some dialogue with Leliana where she implies that elves were almost like pretty pets for humans and you had the opportunity to politely and gently point out that she was being racist "you're not cruel but you still see us differently" she didn't even realize she was being that way and you were able to change her mind. If we could do something like that when someone makes a casual/benevolent sexist remark that would be great. We should be able to hit the Howes, Trians, and Gamlens of the world though.

 

That was such a brilliant line of dialogue, and I wanted to give a high five to whoever wrote it.  It illustrated the character of Leliana, while also expanding on our knowledge of the setting, and the way you deal with it is calmly and rationally pointing out her racist assumptions.  It's a much more realistic portrayal of how racism usually plays out--not usually as something overtly offensive said by an evil person, but as generally nice people being brought up to think a certain way and not seeing the problem with it.  I'd love it if we could address sexist dialogue in the same way.  Well, maybe with headbutting as the aggressive option, and "don't you see how what you said is silly?" as the nicer one.