80 réponses à ce sujet

[EmissaryofLies]

Of course Alistair is right for his anger. He should be angry and his desire for Vengeance is understandable. But that didn't make it the better decision, Loghain would make a good Warden, and the world needs Wardens. Anyways, most of Loghain' s worse atrocities were committed by Howe, of course he was complicit, but still.

I rarely spare Loghain, but I acknowledge that this decision is an emotional one.

 

True. and so is Anora's willingness to spare him.

 

He'd serve a better purpose in the wardens sure. If all you're after is pragmatism.

[Ophir147]

Holy **** I agree with Xill...I think this is one of the seals for Armageddon right here...

 

Brings to mind that old saw about a broken clock. heh

[Xilizhra]

He is/was a good man, He was just forged in war.

 

People who live in peace cannot comprehend the mindset that comes into play when you are looking at every one and everything as a possible threat, a future enemy, an attempt at subterfuge to weaken your position.

 

And he was put into a Feudalistic setting, that just makes the plots and intrigues all the more devious and expounded upon.

 

Overall i judge him not overly harshly, he was given a task that in his position was near impossible to complete.

And people who live in war probably shouldn't try to manage peace, for that exact reason.

[dragonflight288]

dang, the three times I have played return to Ostagar, I have never actually taken Loghain.  That could be interesting.

 

It is very interesting. He offers a perspective of that battle that we, especially Alistair, completely lack. He also pretty much calls Wynne a hypocrite for fleeing the battle just like he did. She says she had no army to rescue Cailan, Loghain says he had no magic to help thin the horde or something like that. 

 

He also has a great line about Cailan putting aside Anora and marrying Celene, and Wynne asks, in a rather condescending way since they do NOT get along, if it would be worth it for the peace. Loghain responds with a great line.

 

"What peace? All that peace would mean is fighting someone else's battle's in someone else's wars for someone else's reasons." Or something like that. 

[wcholcombe]

It is very interesting. He offers a perspective of that battle that we, especially Alistair, completely lack. He also pretty much calls Wynne a hypocrite for fleeing the battle just like he did. She says she had no army to rescue Cailan, Loghain says he had no magic to help thin the horde or something like that. 

 

He also has a great line about Cailan putting aside Anora and marrying Celene, and Wynne asks, in a rather condescending way since they do NOT get along, if it would be worth it for the peace. Loghain responds with a great line.

 

"What peace? All that peace would mean is fighting someone else's battle's in someone else's wars for someone else's reasons." Or something like that. 

Interesting.  I had thought Sten would make some interesting comments on the battlefield etc, but was rather disappointed when I took him.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think familiar ties should be the only motivation for opposition/antagonism, but I do think they can be valid and stay on their own. Anora's desire for you to spare her father (which amounts to him gambling with death, effective exile and loss of political influence/freedom, and a host of other consequences) isn't in opposition to your own objectives as a Grey Warden: it isn't an enforcement of the status quo, nor is it even necessarily a deal breaker for an alliance with her.

 

For DAI, I can see a number of points in which familial relationships can shape a character who may/may not be an antagonist, without being their primary motivating factor. A Templar who joins the Mage Rebellion to protect a sibling (or vice versa: a mage who submits to and aids the Templars because of the siblings), a married Chevalier, an Elf-Human partnership/romance and their half-blood child.

[Xilizhra]

I confess, sparing Loghain feels inadequate for me because we can never confront him on the slavery issue.

[Master Warder Z_]

And people who live in war probably shouldn't try to manage peace, for that exact reason.

 

Peace? There is no end to conflict, its intrinsic to nature.

 

The fronts merely shift to the political and economic spectrum when it isn't overt warfare.

[dragonflight288]

Interesting.  I had thought Sten would make some interesting comments on the battlefield etc, but was rather disappointed when I took him.

 

Sten and Loghain have some party banter where they discuss why he chose to retreat, or why he felt the need to.

[wcholcombe]

Sten and Loghain have some party banter where they discuss why he chose to retreat, or why he felt the need to.

Huh, guess I should take him with someone other than Allistaire or Morrigan.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sten and Loghain have some party banter where they discuss why he chose to retreat, or why he felt the need to.

 

And Qunari apparently do feel the need to retreat, Sten just has a selective memory or isn't aware of that historical tidbit.

 

._.

[pallascedar]

The real question from your post is this, should we have been allowed to make Howe a warden....And how many of us would have done it? duh duh duh

Howe doesn't give you much of a chance. Anyways, I wouldn't have; I hated him too much, and I trusted him too little. But if given the option, maybe it would have been the rational idea?

[EmissaryofLies]

I confess, sparing Loghain feels inadequate for me because we can never confront him on the slavery issue.

 

Handwave for pragmatism, elves do not matter.

[Master Warder Z_]

Handwave for pragmatism, elves do not matter.

 

Or you know because the issue could become moot given PC interaction can result in no elves being taken as Slaves.

[dragonflight288]

And Qunari apparently do feel the need to retreat, Sten just has a selective memory or isn't aware of that historical tidbit.

 

._.

 

According to the Llmarryn Accords, the Qunari decided to leave not because they were weakened or felt the need to retreat, but because the local populace was so decimated. 

 

But Sten probably is referring to his own experiences and never felt the need to retreat. He didn't flee at Lake Calanhad, he didn't flee or barter to escape the fate the Revered Mother set for him in Lothering, he shows no fear at the darkspawn coming while he's in a cage. I think he and the Qunari who aren't converts simply have a completely different mindset to war.

[EmissaryofLies]

Or you know because the issue could become moot given PC interaction can result in no elves being taken as Slaves.

 

The opposite applies as well.

 

What is the purpose of this post?

[Xilizhra]

Or you know because the issue could become moot given PC interaction can result in no elves being taken as Slaves.

Some were, long before the PC got there. It wouldn't be moot.

[wcholcombe]

Howe doesn't give you much of a chance. Anyways, I wouldn't have; I hated him too much, and I trusted him too little. But if given the option, maybe it would have been the rational idea?

He has little in the way of value to offer at his age, I would have let him though, so he could die in the joining.  If not, I would have killed him right after.

[dragonflight288]

He has little in the way of value to offer at his age, I would have let him though, so he could die in the joining.  If not, I would have killed him right after.

 

Duncan was actually recruited because the Warden Commander hoped he'd die in the Joining, so you never know. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The opposite applies as well.

 

What is the purpose of this post?

 

What was the purpose of you're own?

 

When it comes down to it, if you are so morally offended by the Slavery aspect, shut them down and free them however if you're warden didn't particularly care. Then why would they hassle Loghain over it?

 

My point is morality like all things is subjective.

 

 

Some were, long before the PC got there. It wouldn't be moot.

 

Really? I never gathered that, strange i just completed the very quest in question last week.

[Xilizhra]

Really? I never gathered that, strange i just completed the very quest in question last week.

You can hear about several other elves who went in through the healers' house and never returned.

[EmissaryofLies]

What was the purpose of you're own?

 

When it comes down to it, if you are so morally offended by the Slavery aspect, shut them down and free them however if you're warden didn't particularly care. Then why would they hassle Loghain over it?

 

My point is morality like all things is subjective.

 

 

So shutting them down and freeing them somehow completely wipes away the intentions behind such an atrocity? It handwaves that it would have happened had not the PC intervened?

 

And that's hilarious coming from you.

[pallascedar]

Or you know because the issue could become moot given PC interaction can result in no elves being taken as Slaves.

This is just wrong, plenty of slaves are actually taken. Soris loses his wife for instance. That being said, Loghain would just wave it off as Howe's idea. He fails to take personal responsibility for most of the more immoral actions that happened under him.

[dragonflight288]

This is just wrong, plenty of slaves are actually taken. Soris loses his wife for instance. That being said, Loghain would just wave it off as Howe's idea. He fails to take personal responsibility for most of the more immoral actions that happened under him.

 

Oh? Have you spoken with him as a companion? Listened to his banter with your party members? Ever recruited him?

[Xilizhra]

Oh? Have you spoken with him as a companion? Listened to his banter with your party members? Ever recruited him?

There's one conversation about slavery... where he blows it off and blames you for stopping him, which was highly unsatisfying.